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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Lock Haven, Pennsylvania/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:58, 2 January 2010 [1].

Lock Haven, Pennsylvania

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Nominator(s): Finetooth (talk) 04:22, 15 December 2009 (UTC), Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:56, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it's a good read that meets the criteria. User:Ruhrfisch, who did much of the photography and all of the map-making for the article, has kindly agreed to co-nominate. Lock Haven is a small university town that grew up along the West Branch Canal of the Pennsylvania Canal system in the early 19th century. Until William Penn's original woods were mostly felled, the town thrived on timber. In the 1930s, the town became home to Piper Aircraft and its famous Cub. In the 1970s, flooding from the remnants of Hurricane Agnes put a big damper on the airplane factory and much else in town. Beneath part of the city lie artifacts from other cultures dating back more than 8,000 years.

The article has been peer reviewed by User:Brianboulton, User:Niagara, User:Ruhrfisch, User:Doncram, and, on the article's talk page, User:Dincher. In addition, User:Ealdgyth ran a preliminary review of the sources. Finetooth (talk) 04:22, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support I've had my eye on this article for some time and am very pleased with the progress. All of my issues were addressed and the article has only improved during the PR process. Very nicely done. Dincher (talk) 20:53, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your kind words and support as well as your peer review and other help with this article over the past two years. Finetooth (talk) 21:29, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: A carefully prepared article that was very thoroughly peer reviewed by several editors; I was one of them, and every one of my points was addressed fully. The article is pleasant to read, informative, and beautifully presented – the images are a treat. Brianboulton (talk) 21:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your kind words and support. Your review was especially thorough and helpful. Finetooth (talk) 22:10, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My thanks to both reviewers as well - you have helped greatly in improving this. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:29, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Technical stuff

  • No dabs or dead external links, and alt text looks good (see Talk:Lock Haven, Pennsylvania#Lock Haven review). Some alts are fairly long, but they all look good and appropriate (map alts describe the essence instead of the map, for example).
  • Dates are Month Day, Year throughout—good.
  • For images used on multiple pages with non-free rationales, try {{Non-free image data}} and {{Non-free image rationale}} to shorten the File pages. I've changed one of the images to use these; you do it for any others.
  • Nice carillon.

--an odd name 10:44, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for checking these and for the tip on non-free image templates (only one non-free image is used in this article). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 13:16, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks from me too. I did not know about the templates either. Finetooth (talk) 19:52, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment There are some prose issues. For instance (but not limited to):

** "The earliest settlers in Pennsylvania arrived from Asia between 12000 BCE and 8000 BCE, the Paleo-Indian Period, when the glaciers of the Pleistocene Ice Age were receding." - Paleo-Indian Period shouldn't be surrounded by commas.

To make this more direct, I moved "Paleo-Indian Period" to the next sentence and wikilinked it to say: "Fluted point spearheads from this era, known as the Paleo-Indian Period, have been found in most parts of the state. Finetooth (talk) 18:49, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fluted point spearheads are not known as the Paleo-Indian Period. How about "Fluted point spearheads from the Paleo-Indian Period..."? Parrot of Doom 19:22, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I prefer either of my two constructions, both of which seem clear to me. The time span, the era, and the period all refer to the same thing. If we remove "era" from the fluted-point sentence, this connection will be lost, and it might appear that Paleo-Indian Period and the 4,000-year span were not the same. Finetooth (talk) 19:52, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok that's fine with me, however, consider using History of Mesoamerica (Paleo-Indian) as a link instead. Parrot of Doom 18:08, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, but Mesoamerica is a long way south of what became Pennsylvania, that is not the correct link. Sorry, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:31, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ah ok, I'm rather ignorant of US geography, lol :) Parrot of Doom 21:42, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "First contact with Europeans occurred in Pennsylvania between 1500 and 1600 CE." - European first contact with whom?
I changed this sentence to begin, "The native peoples' first contact... ". Finetooth (talk) 18:49, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but who are the native people? Is there an article, or do they have a name? Parrot of Doom 19:22, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The reference is for the whole state. The Susquehannocks were the tribe in the Lock Haven area at the time of first contact - see below polease. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:15, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Would it make sense to add a sentence at the end of this paragraph that said something like "The Susquehannocks were the earliest recorded inhabitants of the Susquehanna River valley and Lock Haven area; disease and warfare wiped them out as a tribe by 1675." Ruhrfisch ><>°° 16:41, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd still prefer a noun or link just to identify those 'native peoples'. They must have been called something. Parrot of Doom 18:08, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Parrot of Doom, I don't think anyone can say for sure when the absolute first contact occurred. Miller and Pencak in Pennsylvania: a History of the Commonwealth here (p. 34) say, "When native Pennsylvanians first laid eyes on Europeans is unclear." The British explorer John Smith met a party of Susquehannocks from Pennsylvania in 1608, but that was not the first contact, which might have occurred between any two people (one Indian and one European) who encountered one another in this wild frontier place. The first encounter could easily have been informal, accidental, and unrecorded. Finetooth (talk) 00:38, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Parrot of Doom, there were at least four tribes in what is now Pennsylvania at the rough time of first contact: the Lenape along the Delaware River in the east (maybe 1/6 of the state), the Susquehannocks in the Susquehanna River valley (maybe 1/2 the state), the Eries along Lake Erie in the northwest, and tribe(s) we do not even know the names of along the Allegheny River/Monongahela River/Ohio River basins in the west (about 1/3 of the state). Plus the Iroquois would cross the state going from New York in the north to fight in the Carolinas to the south, the Susquehannocks were in wars with tribes to the south and north, etc. In short, not only do we not know when the first encounter was or who it was with, we also don't even know the names of all the tribes in the state then (even with the Susquehannocks we do not know what they called themselves, only what others called them). I hope this helps clarify the difficulty in answering your request. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In that case a short footnote to explain this would be welcomed. Parrot of Doom 11:40, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Footnote added. Finetooth (talk) 17:33, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

** "In the early 18th century, the Six Nations of the Iroquois, headquartered in New York, ruled the Indian tribes of Pennsylvania, including those who lived near what would become Lock Haven." - what are Indians?

To clarify, I linked "Indians" to Indigenous peoples of the Americas. Finetooth (talk) 18:49, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Parrot of Doom, is your problem with the word "Indians" here and in "Indian paths/trails"? If so is there another term you'd prefer? Would Native Americans in the United States be a better link. perhaps piped as "Native Americans"? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:13, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't particularly have a problem with Indian over Native American, whatever is most common in the US is fine with me, but it could be confusing for people who haven't heard of these people referred to as Indians, before now. To most people, I would imagine that Indians reside in India. Parrot of Doom 22:37, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the link and added "Native American" in parentheses after "Indian" to eliminate confusion with the Indians of India. Finetooth (talk) 23:41, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good for me. Is Indian how North Americans describe these people? I'm from the UK, over here we'd call them Native Americans, or (slang) Red Indians. Parrot of Doom 18:08, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Native Americans is the politically correct term. Indians is the more common term. My wife fits into this group and she says that she's an Indian. Dincher (talk) 20:49, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine with me, so long as most people are easily able to understand exactly who is being talked about. Parrot of Doom 21:42, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

** "Four Indian paths, the Great Island Path, the Great Shamokin Path, the Bald Eagle Creek Path, and the Sinnemahoning Path, crossed the island, and a fifth, Logan's Path, met Bald Eagle Creek Path a few miles upstream near the mouth of Fishing Creek." - what is an Indian path?

I altered the sentence to start, "Four Indian trails... ". Finetooth (talk) 18:49, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

** "During the French and Indian War (1754–63), colonial militiamen on the Kittanning Expedition destroyed Indian property on the Great Island and along the West Branch. By 1763, the Indians had abandoned their island villages and other villages in the area" - where did they go? What happened to them? They've been there for thousands of years, more detail is required.

      • It is not simple to identify one tribe. The earliest recorded inhabitants of the West Branch Susquehanna River valley were the Susquehannocks, but they were wiped out by disease and warfare with the Iroquois and the few members left moved west or were assimiliated into other tribes by 1675. After that the Iroquois, who were the nominal rulers of the land but mostly lived in New York to the north, invited tribes displaced by European settlers to move into the region. These included the Lenape (Delaware), Shawnee, and others. They moved west into the Ohio River valley. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:13, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have now added a note (citation 8) that's almost identical to User:Ruhrfisch's explanation above and sourced it to Indian Paths of Pennsylvania. Finetooth (talk) 17:59, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "However, white settlers continued to appropriate land, including land in and near the future site of Lock Haven" - repetition
Changed the second use of "land" to "tracts". Finetooth (talk) 19:30, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Cleary Campbell, the first white settler in the area, built a log cabin in 1769 near the present site of Lock Haven University of Pennsylvania, and by 1773 William Reed had built a cabin surrounded by a stockade and called it Reed's Fort" - reads as though 1769 is a place, not a date, especially as the latter part of the sentence puts the date first. We know Campbell is the first settler, but who or what is William Reed?
Moved "In 1769" to the beginning of the sentence. Added "another settler" to clarify what William Reed refers to. Finetooth (talk) 19:30, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "In response to settler incursions, and encouraged by the British after the start of the American Revolution (1775–83), Indians attacked colonists and their settlements along the West Branch. " - was the start of the American Revolution really eight years long?
No. Those are the dates of the Revolution. I altered the sentence to say "during the American Revolution (1775–83)". Finetooth (talk) 21:55, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Hundreds of people fled along the river to Fort Augusta, about 50 miles (80 km) from Fort Reed, and some did not return for five years." - consider a semicolon instead of 'and'
Yes, it's a bit more striking with the semicolon. I adopted your suggestion. Finetooth (talk) 19:43, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The second Treaty of Fort Stanwix, between the Iroquois and the United States" - what branch of the United States? Presumably the government?
Yes. I believe it's customary to simply name the countries involved in treaties. That the governments of those countries are doing the negotiating is understood. Finetooth (talk) 19:43, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, is it correct to use Iroquois here, or is there a term that describes their nation, or governance? Parrot of Doom 19:46, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In this period, it was customary to use "United States" as a group — i.e. "the states that are united" — so "United States" was always the government. Nyttend (talk) 18:01, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The "Iroquois" in the second-treaty sentence echoes the more elaborate "Six Nations of the Iroquois" of the sentence that opens the 18th century subsection of the article. The link to Iroquois in that first sentence leads to a more complete explanation of which tribes (nations) joined as one and why, but these details have little bearing on events in Lock Haven. The tribal confederacy (the Six Nations of the Iroquois) acted as a government in these treaty negotiations. Parrot of Doom, would it help to add "tribal confederacy" to the first sentence? Finetooth (talk) 22:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have now added "tribal confederacy" to the sentence . Finetooth (talk) 18:24, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This language is fairly standard, for example Paul A. W. Wallace's book Indians in Pennsylvania, page 165, says "After the Revolutionary War, the United States made peace of a kind with the Indians in a series of treaties: in 1784 at Fort Stanwix with the Iroquois;..." Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:48, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "to the state in 1784" - consider moving the year to a point earlier in the sentence.
Moved the date to the beginning of the sentence. Finetooth (talk) 19:43, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll check back with more, if required. Parrot of Doom 17:22, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your suggestions, most of which I have adopted, and a few of which I or User:Ruhrfisch have replied to above. Any other suggestions are welcome. Finetooth (talk) 22:01, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Source comments Everything fine. RB88 (T) 18:19, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for checking these. Finetooth (talk) 18:23, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you from these quarters as well. Finetooth (talk) 05:11, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for reviewing the images, Julian. It's not easy to sort out all of these complications, and the boundaries between acceptable and unacceptable often seem unclear to me. In defense of the fair-use claim, I'd say that while log rafts of this sort might be familiar to a North American audience, they might not be to a global audience. The image therefore adds information necessary to the understanding of the text and can't be replaced by words alone. Do you think that argument is sufficient to save the image? Finetooth (talk) 20:34, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am not even sure that such a log raft would be that familiar to most younger people anymore - they just don't grow trees this big or make rafts like this anymore. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:51, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am in favor of keeping the pic in the article. The size of the raft and the steering device is amazing. Dincher (talk) 02:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am with Julian here. For one, rafts are pretty common around the world; I see Asians with bamboo (and thick stick) rafts, so log rafts are not so hard to be conceived even by Asians. Although it is said that this image's raft is unique in that it uses "big" logs, there is nothing in the photo to help visualize that sense of scale. Without knowledge of the logs' size, it seems a fairly ordinary crude made log raft. This image would have more sense of fair use in Pennsylvania's logging-specific articles than about the place Lock Haven. Jappalang (talk) 01:15, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I have been BOLD and removed the image, replacing it with the one image the City of Lock Haven uses on its official history web page, also of a log raft, but this time the raft is on the West Branch Susquehanna River going under the old bridge in Lock Haven itself. The image does not have any source or date information - the raft means it has to be 19th or very early 20th century. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good, thanks for taking care of that.. –Juliancolton | Talk 14:04, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Everything else appears alright.

Best, –Juliancolton | Talk 04:16, 29 December 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Seems to have been worked out. Sorry for the wait. –Juliancolton | Talk 14:04, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 15:17, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks from me too, and thanks to Jappalang as well. Finetooth (talk) 18:11, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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