Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bob Feller/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

This article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 24 March 2013 (UTC) [1].

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Bob Feller

Bob Feller (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Bob Feller/archive1

Nominator(s): User:Zepppep, Wizardman 02:56, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

We all have our reasons for starting to edit Wikipedia. One of mine was seeing that the article on Bob Feller was, to be blunt, utter crap. It had a paragraph or two on his career as well as several paragraphs about his opinions on various things. It was sad even by standards back then, let alone now. Fast forward to today, and we have an article much more suited for the subject. As an Indians fan myself, I grew up idolizing the guy, and was privileged to have met him shortly before his passing. Suffice to say he's someone I really want to see get on the front page.

As for him, Bob Feller was a baseball pitcher for nearly 20 years. Brought in as a child prodigy, he was a star from the get-go. He missed the peak of his career due to World War II, then came back and pitched another decade. He is part of the baseball Hall of Fame, and remained active in the community for decades afterward.

This article has been through a GA review, a major rewrite by me, a peer review, and another cleanup, and after all that, I think it's as close to FAC as I'm going to get it. Wizardman 02:56, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Image issue with File:Oliver-bin_261.jpg. It's tagged as lacking a description, but I'm concerned that the licensing is wrong - if this is a sculpture, it is not covered by freedom of panorama. To me it looks more like a mural, but if so it can't be PD-self unless the uploader is the muralist. Please check. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:23, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll ask Kingturtle about it. It looks like a mural, but the PD status for now is up in the air whether it's a mural or sculpture. Wizardman 01:41, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

• Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Wizardman. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments by MONGO: I was only vaguely familiar with this guy, so the article is enlightening. Article is comprehensive and has good flow, doesn't come across as apologetic for his latter years as a player, listing his worsening record just before he decided to retire. I just have a few comments...

• Last sentence, second paragraph of intro..."He helped the Indians won a World Series title"...shouldn't "won" be "win"?
• In Early life..."From the age of 15, he began to pitch for the Oakviews after a starting pitcher was injured and continued to play American Legion baseball"...who continued to play American Legion baseball?
• In section World Series champion (1948), first sentence "In 1948, the Indians had one of their finest seasons but for Feller, while Feller's individual season had more ups and downs" Perhaps rewrite it as< In 1948, the Indians had one of their finest seasons, though Feller experienced a season of ups and downs.
• Please go through the article and remove any issues with overlinking...I removed a few.--MONGO 17:26, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

  Went ahead and fixed everything, took out some more overlinking. There's quite a bit in the lead but given the baseball stats there's no way around it. Wizardman 04:10, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

  Thank you...the one sentence listed above though now is written as, "In 1948, the Indians had one of their finest seasons but for Feller, though Feller experienced a season had more ups and downs", which still seems awkward. It doesn't have to be written as I suggested, but its still not flowing right.--MONGO 04:52, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

  Fixed; forgot to take out the "but for Feller" part, so it should be good now. Wizardman 18:42, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

  Excellent. Appears article (as you mentioned) has had a pretty exhaustive GAC and PR...and I read through both and see many issues were addressed. I don't have anything to add, therefore, Support promotion to Featured Article. Thank you for your hard work on this article.--MONGO 20:12, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Leaning support: Hmm, I seem to have been picking at this one for a long time! I was the GA reviewer, commented at the PR, and have done quite a bit of copy-editing. So when I support, it may have to be provisional until some other eyes take a look. Having said that, I think this is one of the best baseball articles I have read. I think it really gives a flavour of who this man was (and I'd never heard of him until I read this. Sorry!), how good he was, and what he achieved. It flows very well, and is easy enough to understand for someone with limited baseball knowledge like myself. It may get a little stats-heavy at times, but that is unavoidable. And there may be some little prose issues to be ironed out here and there, but I think this is close to, if not already meeting, the criteria. I've just a few last queries or follow-ups to earlier points. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:03, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

• We have a large number of sentences in the lead beginning "Feller", "He", or "His". Some more variation would be good. And the third paragraph begins "He", which is a big no-no. A new paragraph really should use the person's name.
• "In 1946, Feller recorded 348 strikeouts on the season": On the season always sounds strange to me, but I suspect it's fine in AmEng. I just wonder how formal it is when used like this?
• "Baseball Hall of Famer Ted Williams": We have two blue-links next to each other; could this be rearranged?
• Williams quote: "the fastest and best pitcher I ever saw during my career ... He had the best fastball and curve I've ever seen." We have used best and fast twice in the same quote. Would it work just as well if we cut everything after the ellipsis?
• Is there anything on his later life which could be added to the lead? It kind of goes from his retirement to his death with only a brief stop along the way.

• But see below. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:51, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

• "was signed by scout Cy Slapnicka": Two more links which are next to each other.
• Perhaps date the Deford quote?
• "He also pitched in baseball games hosted by the military, which used Feller's likeness in the games in order to help sell war bonds": Still fussing about this part, I'm afraid! Used his likeness how? In the games (which is how is reads now), or in an advertising campaign for war bonds?
• "During the 1946, he registered career-highs…": Missing word?
• "though Feller experienced a season had more ups and downs": Something wrong here.
• 1948 World Series Game 5: This part reads rather like a sports report than an encyclopaedia entry, and almost seems to be trying to ramp up the tension! Perhaps scale back the detail and tone it down a touch?
• "After this, Feller struggled for the rest of the season. After an argument with an umpire…": Consecutive sentences beginning "after".
• "thanks to Lopez giving him extra days…": Perhaps "As Lopez gave him…"?
• "After the season had ended, speculation grew whether or not Feller would retire as a player": Redundancy. And does speculation grow or mount?
• I'm not sure of the value of the 19 Feller "image". Unless I'm missing something.

• (I am!) Sarastro1 (talk) 19:51, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

• "The Indians of the 40's and 50's": Why are apostrophes used here?
• "for over 70-years": And why is there a dash? I know these last two are from a quote, but still…
• "a No. 19-jersey": Another stray dash?
• I notice Nikkimaria has raised the mural image issue. I mentioned this way back in the GA review and it was removed; someone subsequently re-added it. So I think it is important to sort out the status pretty quickly, as we may be on dodgy ground. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:03, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Support with copyediting disclaimer: Everything looks fine now. Thanks for your patience. One last little thing I noticed from the last round of tweaks which needs sorting. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:51, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

• "After retiring from baseball, Feller continued In 2010, Feller died at the age of 92.": Something wrong here; I would have fixed it, but not too sure what was intended. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:51, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Comments – I just went and cleaned up a few things in the article, including at least one of Sarastro's points. There are a few other things I think should be taken care of before I offer support, which I plan on doing.

• A few areas could use some references:
  • The last two sentences of Military service.
  • World Series champion: The one-game playoff sentence.
  • Later life: Feller living with his second wife in Gates Mills, and having the Cleveland Indians Man of the Year Award named after him.
• Maybe it's just me, but I think it's odd to have international-style date formatting in the references for an American subject. Not a deal-breaker, but a little strange nonetheless. Giants2008 (Talk) 02:44, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

  I'll address both sets of concerns in the next few days; still trying to figure out the mural image, my copyright sense had been working overtime on it but coming up empty on whether it's good or not. Wizardman 00:50, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

  Sarastro and Giants' comments now addressed. A few notes on them though: they used his likeness in the games themselves. While it's possible they used him outside of ballgames in advertising, I have not come across evidence of that. I tweaked the game five stuff a bit, but I'm not really sure how to reword it further without making it sound like a game log, which I'd prefer to avoid in the middle of a bio. The retired number addition is standard in major baseball articles; it provides both how it looks in the stadium as well as the visual note for anyone skimming the article. Lastly, I can change the ref dates if needed, only reason I'm not for now is because it would be a timesink and I alas don't have the free time I used to. Wizardman 18:18, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

  Okay. I'll see if I can take care of the dates myself. Giants2008 (Talk) 02:08, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

  Fixed a couple straggler dates I saw, looks like you got the rest. Wizardman 17:54, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

  Support – There were a couple of nagging date issues left, but I got them before coming back here. With those little things fixed, I think this comfortably meets the FA criteria. Giants2008 (Talk) 17:19, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

• CommentsSupport on comprehensiveness and prose reading through now...will jot notes below....Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:53, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Baseball Hall of Fame member Ted Williams called Feller "the fastest and best pitcher I ever saw during my career."[1] Hall of Famer Stan Musial believed he was "probably the greatest pitcher of our era. - I think both of these can be written from the third person and de-quoted. Nicer flow.

''World Series champion (1948) - shouldn't this heading be "champions"?

I'd rejig the last little bit - I'd leave the Later life section with just the first two paras, then rename the last two paras plus the museum segment as Legacy, which gives the article a nice ending.

Otherwise looking good. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:58, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

On the second point, that's standard naming, since he was part of a champion team; if I was referring to the team itself then I'd change it. The last point I would do if I didn't already have a legacy section above the later life one (I could always move that down under the museum section). The first point I could try, though if I de-quote and change the persona, it would leave people asking who said that about him, which might be an issue; if you don't see it as an issue then I can try and modify it. Wizardman 02:51, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Aaah, ummm...what is in hte section marked legacy currently...isn't legacy. I'd rename it Achievements' or records or something. Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:13, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

A good point, actually. Fixed. Wizardman 03:45, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk)

• I'm supposed to care that the apostrophe is italicized in Sporting News's, but this glitch has always struck me as more of a failure on the part of the Foundation than the failure of thousands of volunteer writers. Until it's fixed, the kludge is {{'}}.
• "at the time only three players had a higher percentage of ballot votes": Well, technically, "had ever had".
• "By the time he was eight years old, he had learned to throw a curveball and when he was nine, could throw a ball ...": ...curveball, and when he was nine, he could throw a ball. Or, if you'd rather not repeat the "he": He had learned to throw a curveball by the time he was eight years old, and could throw a ball 270 feet when he was nine.
• "switched to grow wheat on his farm, a less labor intensive crop": started growing wheat on his farm, a less labor intensive crop
• "Due to Feller's pitching speed, Lew Fonseca was commissioned by the Office of the Commissioner to conduct a test, involving a Harley-Davidson motorcycle and Feller, to see at what speed one of Feller's fastballs could be clocked.": How about: "Lew Fonseca was commissioned by the Office of the Commissioner to pit Feller's fastball against a Harley-Davidson motorcycle in a speed trial."
• "It was calculated Feller's throw reached 98.6 mph (158.7 kph), 104 mph (167 kph) using updated measuring methods.": Maybe "Feller's throw was calculated at the time to reach ..., but later ..."
• "speak of familiarly": Check the whole quote, please, at least some of it is wrong.
• "He also pitched in baseball games hosted by the military, which used Feller's likeness in the games in order to help sell war bonds.": in order to -> to. Also, I don't know what this means; did they put his face in the programs, or on posters at the ballpark? Did he appear in advertising outside the ballpark?
• "to serve combat missions": to serve in combat missions
• "making ball fields out of coral reefs," Feller said.": The original has a period after reefs, not a comma, so move the "Feller said" elsewhere.
• "he spent the rest of his time": he spent the rest of the war
• "to get the Yankees out," Feller said.": Here again ... no comma in the original.
• "as Feller thought he may be": as Feller thought he might be
• "At one point during the season (as Feller thought he may be nearing Rube Waddell's AL record for strikeouts), Feller confirmed Waddell's record of 344 strikeouts with the AL office as opposed to 349. In his last appearance of the season on September 29, Feller threw five strikeouts against the Detroit Tigers to set the AL single-season strikeout record. (Nolan Ryan's 1973 total of 383 strikeouts surpassed both Feller and Waddell's marks.) During the 1946 season, he registered career-highs in strikeouts (348), games started (42) and games pitched (48), shutouts (10), complete games (36) and innings pitched (377.1)—all major league bests that season. The strikeout total broke Waddell's record of 344 set in 1949.": Lots of redundancy.
• "declared "we sink or swim with Feller," and": The comma is in the original ... but the original is quoting someone else, and the someone else probably didn't put a comma there (if they wrote it down). So it's safer to move the comma outside the quote marks.
• " it was the first time the team won the pennant since the 1920 season.": had won
• "picked off the Braves' Phil Masi's stolen base attempt": It's common sports jargon so I think it's fine ... but "picked off the Braves' Phil Masi as he ..." is better. - Dank (push to talk) 15:15, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
• "on hitter": another misquote: on one hitter. That's 0 for 3 of the ones I've checked, so it would probably be a good idea to check all the quotes.
• "The 35-year old Feller": The 35-year-old Feller
• "it...If" it ... If
• "being one of "The Big Four" Indians pitching rotation": as one of "The Big Four" in the Indians' pitching rotation
• "20th century record": "20th-century record" is preferred at FAC
• "his first year of eligibility": redundant to the next sentence
• "After Feller had been admitted to hospice": If you keep it: since this is a big jump in time, a little better would be "In 2007, after Feller ...". But personally, I wouldn't keep this; he had already been admitted to hospice, and the interview makes it clear he was not in a mood to talk; it seems a bit unfair to pick this moment to quote him on a characterization of Jackie Robinson. Newspapers may do this to sell newspapers, but it's not likely to reflect what he would have said when he wasn't sick ... unless he did say the same things when he wasn't sick, in which case, that's what should be quoted.
• "Feller's involvement, as well as other major league players": "Feller's involvement, as well as that of other major league players,", or "The involvement of Feller and other major league players" - Dank (push to talk) 16:26, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
• "He also threw the second fastest pitch ever officially recorded, at 107.6 mph (173.2 kph), in a game in 1946 at Griffith Stadium, and was also once clocked at 107.9 mph (173.6 kph).": So he had both the second fastest and the fastest? Or was the second unverified in some sense ... so should we be reporting it? Maybe we're talking about the second-fastest pitch in a major-league game. - Dank (push to talk)
• "Feller said a 1974 test involving Nolan Ryan would be evaluated when he threw the ball rather than when it reached home plate, and as columnist Milton Richman wrote, Feller said "Sandy Koufax had the best live fast ball he ever saw." Feller wrote "If someone were to ask me who the fastest pitcher in the history of the game was, I'd say Walter Johnson, but he was never clocked.": I don't follow; in your opinion, which of these three people did Feller think was fastest? Or do we not know?
• Done. - Dank (push to talk) 17:00, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

  Thanks for the review, will address over the next couple days. Wizardman 16:26, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

  About 80% done, will wrap up tomorrow. Wizardman 04:14, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

  All issues now addressed. For the last note, I believe he's saying that Koufax was the fastest by his own experience. Johnson was retired long before Feller's career began, so that's going by his legacy; I can remove that latter part to make it clearer if desired. Wizardman 03:24, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

  Yes ... since you're okay with that, I removed that sentence. - Dank (push to talk) 22:51, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

• Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 23:01, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 05:29, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.