Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Lipantitlán/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:Karanacs 02:25, 12 October 2008 [1].

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Battle of Lipantitlán

Nominator(s): Karanacs (talk)

This is another short article about a small battle in the Texas Revolution. The more I research and write about these battles, the more I understand the saying "God protects children and idiots". It amazes me that the Texians won anything. I look forward to any constructive criticism. Karanacs (talk) 19:04, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Image comments - This seems more like a peer revies request, rather than a FAC, but ... I would prefer a map giving the location, possibly add the {{coord)) template, FOP pictures of the various comerative plaques, gravestones should be included. Any pictures of the protagonists are likely to be free due to expired copyright (assuming there are any). Fasach Nua (talk) 09:21, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I created a map that shows the location of the main towns that were mentioned in the article. There are no pictures, as far as I can find, of the combatants, and I cannot find a PD photo of the commemorative plaque. Karanacs (talk) 20:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments - sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:13, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comments
• Should "Battle" be capitalized in the first sentence of the lead?
• They were released immediately as long as they promised not to fight again during the Texas Revolution. → "They were released immediately, on the condition that they promised not to fight again during the Texas Revolution."?
• The Texians were using a small canoe to transport men across the Nueces River, and when the Mexican soldiers were sighted only half of the Texian force had crossed to the east bank of the river. "were using" → "used"; simpler wording.
• Westover agreed Is it possible to merge this two-word sentence with another?
• References and sources look good.

–Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 15:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment Can something that only had 150-160 persons involved be called a battle ? Jim Sweeney (talk) 11:46, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

That's what the sources call it. Karanacs (talk) 20:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments: It's not that short (2,200+ words). It looks comprehensive. But I always worry slightly when articles come to FAC without GA or PR; there tend to be niggly things that could have been sorted out there. In the lead alone:-

• In the first line we have battle of Lipantitàn and Battle of Nueces Crossing. Why the different capitalizations?
• It should be "served as a customs point", not "served as customs point"
• Personally I'd put a comma after "retake Goliad", to get the right rhythm in the reading
• Who was Ira Westover? Some brief description necessary on first encounter
• I think it should be "alternative" route, not "alternate". "Alternate" has many meanings, alternative is clear-cut
• San Patricio should be linked.

I'm reading on and will deliver further comments later. Brianboulton (talk) 22:06, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've read it through carefully. Here are some further comments on the text:-

• Background
  • The word "often" occurs twice in the first line - could one of them become "frequently"?
  • The form "2d" for "2nd" (second) is new for me - is that how it's written? It is also necessary to clarify that this was a unit of the Mexican Army.
  • There is an assumption of knowledge - that we all know what centralist and federalist means in this context. Well I'm afraid I don't (English education). Is a simple explanation possible?
  • Can the references to "Austin" be made to "Gen. Austin", just to avoid confusion with the city of that name?
• Prelude: I didn't find the map especially helpful, mainly due to (a) no scale indicated and (b) the most important part being crammed into the bottom left corner, where the river is a thin un-named line. Any chance of an enhanced map?
• Aftermath
  • Suggest "to transport the captured artillery"
  • The phrase "must be transferred", meaning "needed to be transferred" is surely Old English use of "must", and reads oddly.
  • The first Texian victory since the Battle of Goliad - which was just a month previously. Had there been reverses during that month? A little detail would give some depth to the statement.
  • I sense a need for a "however" at the start of the last sentence of the penultimate paragraph.

That's it. A simple, even slight, story, effectively told. Brianboulton (talk) 23:22, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comments
• I don't know if it's these small battles like Grass Fight, but the ambiguity the soldiers and leaders presented both before and after these skirmishes is a bit anticlimactic. Am I expecting something else? Like a clear reason they were fighting? And a clear result of killing each other? I get that they won the Gulf Coast, but a half hour's worth of shooting produced what, really? I can't figure out if the battle itself was morally muddy or it's the way the article portrays it. On this conflict, I guess this is comprehensive, and maybe it's the proximity of all these small FAs coming in together where something pretty insignificant makes little impact. Help me out, Karanacs. I've read the article several times and I'm about as morally muddy about this as the participants. --Moni3 (talk) 15:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments on this version — Jappalang
Lead

• Ira should be named Adjutant to define his relationship to Dimmitt.
• "which meant that the troops stationed at San Antonio de Béxar could only receive reinforcements and supplies overland."

Perhaps "which meant that the troops stationed at San Antonio de Béxar could receive reinforcements and supplies only by land."? Otherwise, it might be mistaken that Béxar troops could do nothing but wait for reinforcements and supplies (i.e. no attacking, scouting, etc).

Background

• Ummm... could we establish a time frame at the start?

Prelude

• "All three of the advisors"

More concise: "The three advisors"?

• "remained behind to defend the fort."

I think we can drop "behind".

Battle

• "Because Westover's men instead approached from the east, they eluded the Mexican patrols."

Elude suggests to me that they are in the patrol's path but managed to escape their detection. Preferably, "By approaching from the east, Westover's men avoided the Mexican patrols." One more query, were these patrols part of the 21–27 men who stayed behind?

• "They were released immediately as long as they promised not to fight again during the Texas Revolution."

Not even against one another, and specifically for this Revolution? How about "They were released immediately after they had promised not to fight the Texians again."?

• "The Texians captured two 4-lb cannons"

Since the two cannons were mentioned earlier, should this not be "The Texians captured the two 4-lb cannons"?

• "and began dismantling the embankments."

If the embankments were dismantled by the time they left, perhaps just "and dismantled the embankments."?

• "The trees prevented the cavalry from approaching, so Rodriguez's men dismounted and attempted to attack from both sides."

Suggestion: "As the trees would be a danger to charging calvary, Rodriguez's men dismounted and attacked from both sides."

• "The Texian rifles had a much longer range than the Mexican Brown Bess muskets (200 yards (180 m) compared to 70 yards (64 m)."

Besides the unclosed brackets, the sentence did not act on the longer range of the Texians. How about "The greater range of the Texian rifles, 200 yards (180 m) compared to the Mexican Brown Bess muskets' 70 yards (64 m), helped their wielders hold off the Mexicans."?

• "Bracken was the only Texian injured. He was shot in the right hand and lost three fingers."

Suggestion: "Bracken was the only Texian injured, losing three fingers when he was shot in his right hand."

Aftermath

• "Rodriguez declined the offer, and he and his remaining men retreated to Matamoros."

Suggestion: "Rodriguez declined the offer and retreated with his remaining men to Matamoros."

• "The Texians now controlled the Gulf Coast, and so all communication between Cos and the Mexican interior must be transferred overland. This was a long journey, so Cos was unable to quickly request or receive reinforcements or supplies."

Cos could quickly make a request for reinforcements. It is the time to deliver the request and execute it that would not be prompt. Hence, "The Texians now controlled the Gulf Coast, so Cos could communicate with the Mexican interior only by land. Due to the long distance involved, his requests for reinforcements and supply could not be promptly acted on."

• "However, the town remained divided, with many still supporting the centralist Mexican government."

Suggestion: "However, the town remained divided; many still supported the centralist Mexican government."

• "warning them that the Mexican army would be returning and encouraging them to repudiate the rebellion."

Is this "warning them that the Mexican army would return and encouraging them to repudiate the rebellion." correct?

• Did Dimmitt or the Consultation do anything to allay the fears of the San Patricio federalists? Did Rodriguez enact his threat?
• Can we obtain an image of the stone marker of the location of the fort? (Note that Flickr has http://www.flickr.com/photos/texashistoricalmarkers/390208931/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/texashistoricalmarkers/390208933/).

General

• Just how far is Goliad from Lipantitlan/San Patricio? It seems incredible how Rodriguez can march back and forth, reaching either location in less than a day after receiving news. Perhaps the map could show the distance between the locations shown.

The prose is very good. So far, I have only those little thoughts above. Jappalang (talk) 00:46, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I really appreciate all of the reviewer comments, and I will definitely be working on the article to incorporate the suggestions I've been given. Unfortunately, real-life pressures mean I won't be able to complete this task in a timely manner, and it is best that the nomination be withdrawn for now. Karanacs (talk) 02:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I found the article quite interesting, so if you'd like, I'd be happy to help deal with the issues raised until you find more time. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 02:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.