Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bastion (video game)/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 00:30, 5 April 2012 [1].

Bastion (video game) edit

Featured article candidates/Bastion (video game)/archive1

Nominator(s): Pres N 19:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Back again, this time with the indie video game darling of 2011! Bastion is a GA, been copyedited by me several times over the past month, has its refs archived, has image rationales and alt text, and overall feels up to the level of my other video game FAs. Thanks for reviewing and showing me how wrong (or right) I am! --Pres N 19:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: PresN. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: I read through the article a few weeks back and thought it was pretty complete/well written. I have a few comments and suggestions on the prose though:
There is a lot of "the game" in the first couple paragraphs, if you can think of a good way to cut a couple out that might be a good idea.
"a team of seven people split between a house in Los Angeles and New York." I'd suggest "split between houses in..." here.
In the Gameplay section you start two consecutive sentences with "Levels", I suggest rephrasing there.
"the shrine lets the player choose idols of the gods to mock, causing the enemies to become stronger while giving increased experience points and currency." Who receives the currency that is given here? (I assume the player, but it might be good to clarify.)
"destroying a certain number of objects with it within a given time" I'd suggest avoiding the "with it within" if you can think of a good way to avoid it. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:02, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Responses:
Wow, I really did, didn't I. Done.
Dropped the "house" bit from the lead- the idea was 5 in a house in LA, while Korb and Cunningham lived and worked in NYC. Spelled out in the dev section.
Done.
Done.
Done.

--Pres N 22:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, fixes look good. I made a few more copyedits. Here're a few more comments:
Do you think "courses designed to test the player's skills with the weapons" would be an improvement over "courses designed to test the player's abilities at using the weapons"?
"sets off for the titular Bastion, where everyone was supposed to go in troubled times." Should this be "was" or "is"?
"who had worked for the Caelondians in building a weapon intended to destroy the Ura completely to prevent another war." This feels a bit wordy to me, trying to think of a good way to tighten it.
"The original idea was based around the idea..." I suggest rephrasing to remove the "idea... idea" here.
"a way to provide background details and depth to the world without having the player read long strings of text" Maybe "requiring" or something more specific than "having" here.
"A playable version of the game was debuted at the" Do we need the "was" here? (I honestly don't know.)
" A playable version of the game was debuted at the September 2010 Penny Arcade Expo, where it was well received, and after a strong showing at the March 2011 Game Developers Conference, Warner Bros. signed on to publish and distribute the game." I suggest splitting this into two sentences. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, done.
Is sounds wrong to my ear, possibly because the "everyone" in question is dead, and so are past tense.
Tried chopping the sentence in half.
Idea->premise
Used requiring
"debuted" makes the game the actor, while "was debuted" makes the dev team the implicit actor; I'd prefer to leave it as "was"
Done.

--Pres N 20:34, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, thanks for clearing those up for me. I'll try to remember that one about debuted for future reference. Mark Arsten (talk) 22:32, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, these are the last of the notes I made about the article, made a few more copyedits:
""Build" features the voice of Ashley Barrett, "Mother" that of Korb, and "Set Sail" of both." Is there a good way to rephrase the last part? It sounds a bit awkward, but it could just be me.
"The musical style of the soundtrack has been described by Korb as "acoustic frontier trip hop"." This may be an MOS linking violation.
Watch out for the overuse of "while". I just noticed it twice in this sentence: "Each structure serves a different purpose; for example, the distillery lets the player select upgrades, while the shrine lets the player choose idols of the gods to mock, causing the enemies to become stronger while giving the player increased experience points and currency."
"Bastion was released to a strong reception. The game sold over 500,000 copies during 2011, 200,000 of which were for the Xbox Live Arcade.[37][38] Bastion received generally strong reviews." It almost feels to me like you're trying to fit two different topic sentences in one paragraph here, maybe try to combine them? Maybe something like: "Bastion was released to strong sales and critical reviews."?
"The game has won several awards, beginning prior to publication." is "beginning" dangling here? I read it a couple times and I'm not sure.
Leaning to support, will probably read through the article again just to be sure I didn't miss anything. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:26, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Rephrased.
It is, delinked.
Hmm, "highlight all" definitely shows a bunch of "while" clumps. Replaced about half of them- something for me to watch out for in the future.
Done.
Reworked to avoid the issue.

--Pres N 21:00, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, you're quick with the fixes! Mark Arsten (talk) 21:03, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm back again, a few more comments:
"and went on to win and be nominated for awards at the 2011 Independent Games Festival and Electronic Entertainment Expo prior to release." This sentence has been bothering me a bit. Could it be clarified here whether it was nominated and awards won at both or was nominated at one and won at the other?
Just noticed that in the first paragraph of Gameplay you start three sentences in a row with "The player". Also you use "the player" a lot in that section, though I guess it would be hard not to. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:58, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Levels contain many different environment types, including cities, forests, and bogs." Do you think bog is uncommon enough to be linked, or should that stay unlinked?
"At any point in the game, the player can choose between at most two regular levels." I'm not sure about the "at most two" phrase, perhaps "one or two" would be better?
"Rucks' narration while the Kid travels reveals that he had previously told Zia that the Bastion had the ability to somehow fix the Calamity" Who does "he" refer to here? Mark Arsten (talk) 00:22, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"They also wanted to forgo a map system, and felt that having the ground come up to the player allowed them to easily see without a map where they had been or not been in a level." I'm having a bit of trouble understanding this, it might just be me though.
"To avoid slowing the pace of the action-oriented gameplay, they had the narrator mainly speak in short, evocative phrases, with long pauses between speaking parts." I'd avoid "they" here, probably better to state "the team" or something.
"An early version of the game was shown at the March 2010 Game Developers Conference, to little acclaim. A playable version of the game was debuted at the September 2010 Penny Arcade Expo, where it was well received." Maybe note that the first version was unplayable?
"Of the presentation elements, the story was the least praised; though several reviewers such as Noble enjoyed it, saying that it "just gets better the further you delve into it," Ryan Scott of GameSpy termed it a "just-sorta-there plot" and Greg Miller said that it "could have been better" and never "hooked" him." This is a sorta long sentence, I suggest breaking it up.
"and Scott called it enjoyable, though not challenging." Just checking, is this a paraphrase or did you forget to put quotation marks?
A few sentences in the last couple paragraphs are pretty long, but that may just be a preference issue on my part.
Alright, I think that's the last of my comments. I'm poised to support pending the resolution of these last few comments. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:15, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done.
Removed the repetition; not much I can do about "the player" appearing all over.
I'd leave it unlinked.
Done.
Reworked.
The pronouns were a bit ambiguous, reworked.
Done.
Sure, done.
Broken up.
Quotes for two of the words; he used the words enjoyable and challenging in the review, but not that phrase.
There's nothing there I'm bothered about, but if anyone else also feels that they're too long I'll go ahead and rearrange things.

--Pres N 23:41, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, all the issues I could find have been resolved and I'm happy to Support this article's promotion. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:21, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I think the resolution of File:Bastion screenshot.png is too high at 960x540, particularly in a lossless png format. And yet, the image size on the article is too small at default preferences (220px wide) and I can hardly make out any detail. I also think you can pick out a better screenshot, showing more enemies, action and colour. The narration was by far the most well received and original part of the game, it would be useful to have an audio snippet. I'm not sure how well this would work without the accompanying action, I'm not sure about whether our non-free guidelines rules out video, but even voice alone would convey the tone of the game and story. - hahnch e n 23:45, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Got an image that's smaller and more colorful, and bumped up the in-article size. Will see about an audio snippet. --Pres N 20:43, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support I reviewed it at GAN and now believe it meets the FA criteria. Regards.--♫GoP♫_T ^C _N 11:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:17, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Don't need to bracket ellipses unless there's another ellipsis in the original source
What makes this a high-quality reliable source? this? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:17, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Removed all brackets from quotes that did not contain ellipsis in the first place.
The Giant Bomb piece is written by Jeff Gerstmann, founder of the site and former editorial director of GameSpot, and the videos themselves feature him and the game developers themselves. IndieGames.com is the indie game news outlet of UBM TechWeb, which runs Gamasutra, Game Developer magazine, and the Game Developers Conference/Independent Games Festival. --Pres N 01:36, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Axem Titanium (talk) 23:01, 30 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

*Comments: Overall a good read for a game I've never played (though I'd like to). Some thoughts:

- "Bastions's" in the first paragraph of the lead
- Lots of passive voice throughout, would prefer if at least some of it was converted to active, particularly in the lead
- The gameplay section uses singular they. While this stylistic decision is up to the editor, I've found that an easy way to sidestep the whole issue is to refer to "players" instead of just one player.
- "Bastion was created by a team of seven people, who composed the studio Supergiant Games." Did they compose the studio just to make Bastion? It sounds like it, based on this wording but it should be clearer either way.
- The word "while" is used extensively in this article in an iffy way. See WP:1a#Achieving Flow for why it's not the best connector in the world.
- Nice use of fair use and free images. Good job.
- More passive voice in the Development section. Could use some touch-ups here.
- The discussion about "debuted" vs. "was debuted" came up at my FAC, referencing this one. Merriam Webster seems to think "debuted" by itself is fine, but feel free to disagree.
- A template for track listings exists, {{track listing}}, which has all the functionality you seem to be using in your custom table.
That's what I see right now. Might go through the article again soon. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:54, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Replying in a block

Done.
Tried to add some active voice.
I prefer the singular they and no one has complained here yet.
Clarified (not just for the game necessarily, but it's the only game they've made so far)
Yeah, I get that a lot- even if it was correct I overuse it, as per Arsten above. Fixed.
Thanks! GDC releases their photos for free, so that's helpful.
Activized
Made it debuted with Supergiant as the explicit subject, since, both you and Arsten commented on it.
Used, I had just left whatever was in the article before me.

Thanks for reviewing! --Pres N 19:10, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Some more comments:
- You mention awards on two separate occasions in the lead. Is it possible to combine them?
- The screenshot claims it shows the Kid fighting, but I can barely the one enemy in the shot, since it's mostly covered by the cursor. Is there a better screenshot that shows the combat more clearly?
- "The player additionally has the ability to perform a special attack; weapons and special attacks must be acquired before they can be used." Not really sure if a semicolon is appropriate here. I don't see the connection between the clauses. You can probably get away with completely removing the second part of the sentence. It's pretty obvious that you need to acquire a thing before you can use it. "Additionally" can be replaced with "also".
- Feel free to use "the Kid" instead of "the player" where appropriate in the Gameplay section, so you're not repeating player all the time. E.g. "The Kid can only carry a certain number", "As the Kid progresses through the levels", etc. Of course, there are certain things the Kid isn't doing, like choosing between levels or upgrades, which are solely the provenance of the player.
- Distinguish between level, as in character level, and level, as in stage. You use the same term for both and it might be confusing for non-gamers.
- Link New Game+
- "The narration while the Kid travels reveals that Rucks had previously told Zia that the Bastion had the ability to somehow fix the Calamity" Too many clauses! I don't think it's necessary to specify that the narrator says this.
- "composed the studio" Do you mean "comprise"?
Thanks. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:19, 27 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Rather not, as there's a timeline going on - pre-release awards, release, reviews, post-release awards
I actually had a really hard time finding a screenshot that showed off the art style and had the ui up- looks like all the press package shots had the ui removed. If I can find a better one, I'll replace it.
Killed the semicolon in favor of a period, but left the second part- there's no reason that the player couldn't get all special attacks related to that weapon as soon as they get a weapon, or just get all special attacks/weapons at the start of the game.
Replaced a bunch with "the Kid", as it seemed to be a bit out of hand.
Good point, done.
Done.
Done.
Nope. wiktionary def. In NA english, the studio is comprised of the 7 people, but the 7 people compose the studio. I've gotten dinged on that before, and there's one guy on WP that spends half his time using AWB to fix all uses of comprise he can find. --Pres N 22:06, 30 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't know that. Fair enough. Axem Titanium (talk) 23:01, 30 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all my issues are addressed. Axem Titanium (talk) 23:01, 30 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support ~~Comments~~ from Noleander

Readers will want to know what the price was ... I don't see the price in the article. Even if the price varied, at least give a price range, for the US or UK markets.
More precise wording? - "At any point in the game, the player can choose between one or two regular levels. " - I presume that this choice is not made at any point in the game, but rather whenever a level is completed, the player has two choices of the next level? Probably should be reworded to be clearer.
Pronounciation: "Caelondia" - Readers may want to know if that is sounded K or S.
Wording: "The idea of a narrator was added early in the game's development ..." - Could delete the words "idea of a".
More on fan opinions? - This game was, apparently, a big hit. Yet the Reception section seems very sterile; certainly the official reviews deserve prominent discussion ... but can some other data be adde that gives the reader a feeling for the enthusiasm of the fan base? I know that WP:V limits what material can be added, but if there was a huge/faithful/loyal following, can that be indicated somehow? Perhaps calls for a sequel, etc.
Overall, a fine article, will support once the above are addressed.

End Noleander comments --Noleander (talk) 16:14, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Begin PresN responses:

Per WPVG guidelines, derived from Wikipedia is not a directory: Sales catalogs, prices should not be included for video games unless they were notable- in this case, $15 at launch, it was basically on par with other indie games of its caliber and reviewers didn't take note or exception to it.
Reworded, how's that?
Well, today I learned how to do the IPA template. Done- it's say-lon-dee-uh/seɪˈlɒndiə.
Done.
I'd love to, but there's not much I can do, I'm afraid- it's a perennial issue in VG article development. Fan opinions are inherently non-notable, unless a journalist comments on them- forum comments and Reddit threads can't really be cited, and things like user review scores tend to be based on a vocal minority, either up or down. In this particular case, it would be that most people liked the game, thought the narrator was a great idea and the music really good, but there's no RS supporting that. Review scores and awards are all we've got- sadly enough I'm lucky to even have some sales numbers for the game, as that's fairly uncommon.
Thanks for reviewing!

End PresN responses. --Pres N 20:39, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to Support, based on improvements. I don't agree with the "dont show price" guideline, but I'll defer to the project's judgement. --Noleander (talk) 21:18, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate notes

As the nominator had a spotcheck from Nikki in another FAC last year, I think we can forego one in this nom.
I notice some discussion on images but has anyone checked all media licensing (and is prepared to sign off on same)?
Best to end each paragraph with a citation; that's missing from the first paragraph in Gameplay -- pls action. Same for one paragraph in Plot -- although plots in novel and film articles are not usually cited, since you've done it in this article you might want to take care of that one too, for internal consistency. Cheers Ian Rose (talk) 22:56, 3 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Images (although Axem Titanium already said a bit about them) The two non-free images are good, used correctly and described adequately on their file pages. The two CC BY 2.0 images are tagged correctly as such and are also used correctly in the article. Clay^Clay _Clay 19:06, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've added two end-of-paragraph refs where you requested. --Pres N 19:09, 4 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Tks Clay, Pres. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:24, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.