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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Barryville–Shohola Bridge/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:53, 18 August 2009 [1].

Barryville–Shohola Bridge

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Nominator(s): Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 15:00, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I am nominating this for featured article because after major work for several months, an excruciating peer review and several other works, I feel its finally ready for FAC. The article is a GA and would be the first Delaware River crossing to reach FA if it passes. Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 15:00, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments - Prose only. Images need alt text.
I put alt text in I believe. If i didn't than someone will have to do it for me.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 16:57, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 19th Century - non-caps
Done.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1856, a man named Chauncey Thomas constructed a bridge between the two communities, although was poorly put together, collapsing in 1859, when the whole structure fell apart in a windstorm. Two were killed in the incident. A new bridge was constructed in a few years by Chauncey Thomas. However, the bridge did not last long either, when in 1865, the suspension cables snapped, drowning three mules who were crossing. - This is very messy, please clean it up.
Done.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The new bridge remained used for over seventy years, and ownership changed hands several times after Thomas' passing in 1882, eventually landing in the control of the Joint Delaware River Bridge Commission. - replace used with in use, rm "hands", replace landing with ending up
Done.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The bridge was finally replaced in 1941 for $174,300 (1941 USD ($2,522,400 in 2009)), with a steel truss span, and this lasted another sixty years, finally deteriorating until the demolishing of the structure in 2007, upon completion of the new bridge. - period after span, new sentence, This edifice lasted another sixty years...
Done.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The natives' trail followed the Shohola Creek where it enters the Delaware to a location along the eastern bank of the river itself. - to where
Done.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • there was a great increase of population and business in the area, which raised the need for a bridge in the area, and made it essential.[1] - redundant
Done.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • With the essential need for a bridge from Shohola to Barryville growing, - redundant
Done.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • the construction of the first bridge was first planned by a private company, the Shohola and Barryville Bridge Company, in 1854. - remove by a private company and commas
Done - but I question this one.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • took all of his concentration and time, making the need for him to help almost impossible. - causing him to decline the offer
Done.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • which was done by some inexperienced local men that Thomas hired. - which was completed
Done.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • and told the owner at the time, that Thomas was very inexperienced in bridge construction. - remove comma
Done.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Johnston also compared it to Robeling, who was inexperienced with the two-deck span in Niagara, which ended up lasting only forty years. - confusing, rewrite
Done.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Johnson ran the bridge functions well, and remained as president of the bridge company for several years.[1] - rm and, remaining as president...
Done.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The drivers survived the spill into the icy Delaware, but three of the mules were not as lucky.[1] - WP:SPADE
Done.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks to the bridge, prosperity had come to the area.[1] - sounds like something out of a textbook
Done.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thomas, when he died, had never written a will, and instead, his estate and property were divided between his children and his grandchildren. - replace with "Since Thomas had never written a will, estate and property were divided between his children and his grandchildren."
Done.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - The prose is, unfortunately, not at an FA standard. ceranthor 16:53, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep listing issues or else the prose can go nowhere, as more often than not, I cannot solve them.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's not FA reviewers' responsibility to list every issue they see with the article. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:36, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Then I really can't do anything. :| - because what sounds right to me isn't the same to anyone. :( - Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:41, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've withdrawn my oppose, since my listed concerns have been resolved. I do suggest a run-through by an independent copy editor, though. I am not yet ready to support. ceranthor 22:32, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - There's something wrong with ref 2. Theleftorium 17:29, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:34, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. "I put alt text in I believe. If i didn't than someone will have to do it for me." Which edit do you believe put in alt text (do you have a diff)? Because alt text is clearly absent; there's no evidence of it in the article that I can see. Please see WP:ALT for more on alt text and how to add it. It's not that hard to write and to add alt text; please don't give up. Eubulides (talk) 08:08, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can someone do it for me? Because, even if I know what it is, this type of thing is a weak point. (Never have been good with templates and coding and such).Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 14:36, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've attempted to add alt text to all of the images on the page, though it only shows up in Internet Explorer for me. Someone else might want to check and see if it's proper. Note, also, that I simply copied the captions because I can't know what Mitchazenia and others might want to use for alt text. -- Soap Talk/Contributions 15:11, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Would it be possible to add a source to the claim in the lead that the cost of the bridge is ~$2.5 million in current US dollars? Using this inflation calculator, the claim looks accurate, but I cannot add that calculator in as a source because it only goes up to 2007 and has been denied to be a RS when I've tried to use it in other articles. -- Soap Talk/Contributions 15:21, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

* Comment Mitch, I can appreciate the work you put into this. I've read portions, and here are my comments:

First, I can say up front that I don't think the writing is of a quality to be Featured. For example, in the first section, after the lead, you have this sentence. "The earliest crossings of the Delaware River at the location of the Barryville–Shohola Bridge were Native Americans on their way from Connecticut to the Wyoming Valley in Pennsylvania. The natives' trail followed the Shohola Creek where it enters the Delaware to a location along the eastern bank of the river around Shohola." The first crossings were made by' and these people were not going from Connecticut to the Wyoming Valley in Pennsylvania. This was an Indian Crossing long before these places had those names....made by Native Americans (which tribes) on traveling between the shoreline of the present-day Long Island Sound and the valleys in central and north-eastern areas of present-day Pennsylvania. I'm not satisfied with my solution, either, but it could be edited. This is simply one example. There are many more.
Second, the article appears to be riddled with typographical errors: I found 4 in the first three paragraphs. I've fixed them.
Third, there are many many problems with the clarity of the prose. In the first sentence alone: Is it the fifth bridge on the river, the fifth bridge at that location on the river? The agency now responsible for the bridge is probably the Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission, not the Joint Delaware River Commission-- not sure what that would be if it exists.
Fourth, Images: in terms of images, can you find a clearer picture of the bridge? This one is grainy, dark, and we have no sense of the bridge's elegance. The alt text reiterates the text of the caption, it does not describe the image. If you were blind, or vision impaired in some way, how would you know what the image was?

None of these problems are insurmountable. I suggest you find a good copy editor (the Guild of Copy Editors would help you, probably, although possibly not in the amount of time you need for FA review), and fix the problems. But until these are fixed, I have to say Oppose on the grounds of clarity of prose and accuracy. Auntieruth55 (talk) 19:31, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have gone through the article and dealt with most of the prose issues, grammar issues, and basic textual things. Consequently, I'm taking myself OUT of the support/oppose process. I will say, however, in the interests of transparency, the original text of this article resembled greatly the text of the main source used to make it. It no longer does. I think the article still needs a better picture int he lead. anyone seeing that gloom and blurri-ness would wonder about New York/PA weather. Possibly correctly, but that is not the point. There are better pictures, I'm sure, that highlight the bridge, and not its traffic. Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:18, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You've also brought in some numerous errors - specifically the Hurricane Ivan one, which made no sense at all, and need to fix the template you busted. I've swapped the bottom and top images.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 21:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You're very welcome. Auntieruth55 (talk) 01:10, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OPPOSE. I've reconsidered some of what I wrote above -- although as a copy editor I've fixed numerous errors of prose, the text still largely resembles the main secondary source the editor used to create the article. Call that what you want, but it's too closely paraphrased to the "P" word for my taste. I've tweaked the grammar so it is correct, but the text still closely resembles the book. Second: the article does little to elaborate on the larger issues of the bridge: for example, why there. I added a line or two on the indigenous peoples and the archeological dig there, but it was cursory. This article simply does not meet the requirements in 1a, 1b, 1c. and IMHO it did not meet the requirements for GA either. As a member of the guild of copy editors, I'm willing to work with an editor on a problem, but not when the content and scope of the article is insufficient, nor am I willing to take attitude about it. So kindly consider that "oppose" as STRONGLY. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:38, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Its scope is fine :| - and I put why the bridge was there as its apparently been ignored. Its not Plagarism, as nothing is copy pasted. Thank you for ruining my 5th FAC in a row.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:41, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just because I oppose doesn't mean it won't pass. I am but one voice in the mass of wikipedians. Chill. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:56, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Its becoming an obvious pattern. I am a dumbass. I don't deserve another FA.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 17:58, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
it has nothing to do with you as a person. The article just isn't to the quality of writing and scope that the guidelines require. Simply passing the article because you're a nice guy, or because you worked hard on it, is not the appropriate thing to do. Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:13, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently Wikipedia helped write better to ace a college essay, but apparently to not write a Featured Article. :| - I dunno if we should be posting, because I requested a withdrawal.Mitch32(Want help? See here!) 18:17, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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