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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1998 Tour de France/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 25 May 2020 [1].

1998 Tour de France edit

Nominator(s): Zwerg Nase (talk) 18:33, 25 March 2020 (UTC) and BaldBoris[reply]

This article is about the 85th running of the Tour de France, the most famous bicycle race in the world. It is pretty much in the same shape as when it passed GA, but I feel that it is close to FA as it is. Every comment and suggestion is very welcome! Zwerg Nase (talk) 18:33, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Route_of_the_1998_Tour_de_France.png: what data sources were used to create this map? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:41, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: I don't know what the original creator of the graphic used all those years ago, but I've added a source for the information to the Wikicommons page. Zwerg Nase (talk) 16:39, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Andrei loas made more maps, and posted [one of them] as SVG. I checked the source code of that SVG, it has the following meta-data:
<dc:date>09/2008</dc:date>
<dc:creator>
 <cc:Agent>
  <dc:title>Eric Gaba (user Sting) for Wikipedia</dc:title>
 </cc:Agent>
</dc:creator>
<dc:source>NGDC World Data Base II</dc:source>
User Sting did indeed make maps of France in September of 2008 (see [his page on Commons]), but I don't know which one was used. I think it would be good to credit Sting, and maybe put "NGDC World Data Base II" somewhere?.--EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 15:48, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@EdgeNavidad: Like this? Zwerg Nase (talk) 17:33, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Seems right to me. One day, somebody should go through all Andrei's maps and add the sources, but that's not on topic for this review. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 18:51, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@EdgeNavidad:Since I plan on doing all Tour years, at least here, all maps will eventually be dealt with... Zwerg Nase (talk) 19:00, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by NapHit edit

  • "Jan Ullrich (Team Telekom) was the defending champion, having won the 1997 edition's overall general classification with an over nine-minute lead." change to Jan Ullrich (Team Telekom) was the defending champion. He won the 1997 edition's overall general classification by more than nine minutes.
Split the sentences, but kept the tense, since I think past perfect is correct for the second sentence.
  • "In March 1998, El País headlined an article with "Ullrich is fat", highlighting that by this point he was still 8 kg (18 lb) over the weight he had during the previous Tour. change highlighting that to which highlighted
Done.
  • "His preparation was worsened when he suffered a cold during Tirreno–Adriatico, having to retire from the race." change to His preparation suffered further when he was forced to retire from Tirreno-Adriatico with a cold.
DOne
  • "erasing doubt over his form." not sure if doubt should be plural here. I assume there was more than one person who doubted his form?
Done.
  • "gaining his third Tour prologue victory."
Are you certain? I feel that it sounds very weird if I take the verb out of that second part of the sentence.
gaining is the wrong verb to use here, you could switch to "to win his third Tour prologue." instead. That probably works better. NapHit (talk) 11:35, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The second, third and fourth-placed finishers Abraham Olano, Laurent Jalabert and Bobby Julich all had times that were four seconds more, with Jan Ullrich finishing sixth, five seconds behind Boardman." change to The second, third and fourth-placed finishers Abraham Olano, Laurent Jalabert and Bobby Julich finished four seconds behind, with Jan Ullrich who finished sixth, a further second behind.
Done.
  • "in a crash caused by his teammate." Do we know which teammate caused the crash? Might be worth including
Done.
  • " with Festina's Pascal Hervé claiming the mountains classification lead." change to while Festina's Pascal Hervé led the mountains classification.
Done.
  • "The second and third placers..." is placers a word? Sounds odd to me. I would rewrite this sentence to avoid the construction of placers
Done.
  • ", with O'Grady winning two of them to end the day with an eleven-second overall advantage over both Hincapie and Hamburger." make this another sentence and change to O'Grady won two of them to end the day with an eleven-second overall advantage over both Hincapie and Hamburger.
Done.
  • "Cipollini would again be successful on the following stage, winning the bunch sprint into Brive-la-Gaillarde." change to Cipollini won the following stage, a bunch sprint into Brive-la-Gaillarde.
Done.
  • "Before that start of stage 5." change that to the
Done.
  • ", later saying that he had held himself back in anticipation of the upcoming Pyrenees." change to " he said later that he had held himself back in anticipation of the upcoming Pyrenees.
Done.
  • "Stage 8 was hilly and had very high temperatures; it ended with a group of six riders which fought out the victory 7:45 minutes ahead of the peloton." Few problems with this sentence. First part implies the stage had high temperatures, I think what you mean is that on the day of the stage the temperature was high. The second part reads awkwardly. Fought out is not ideal here, I'd try and reword it so it reads clearer.
Done.
  • "Temperatures increased to a high of 44 °C (111 °F) during the following stage, which saw Rabobank rider Léon van Bon win the final sprint which was contested between a four-man breakaway that was able to hold off the closing field by 12 seconds." This is a really long sentence. Split it up so it reads easier.
Done.

That's a few to get started with. I'll come back finish the rest of the article tomorrow. NapHit (talk) 19:36, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@NapHit: Thank you for your comments, see above for my responses. Looking forward to more :) Zwerg Nase (talk) 10:12, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, I'll get to this later today. :) NapHit (talk) 11:35, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More...

  • "and lastly the Col de Peyresourde..." change lastly to finally
  • "teammates Rodolfo Massi and Alberto Elli had been formed by the foot of the Tourmalet." you can change this to, formed at the foot of the Tourmalet. Had been is redundant.
  • "Massi moved clear from his fellow breakers..." is breakers common terminology in cycling for members of a breakaway? I've never heard that term before when I've watched cycling. I'd change it to 'moved* clear from the other riders in the breakaway.
All three above done.
  • "As they did in that stage, the peloton agreed not to begin racing until after the first 45 km (28 mi)," what you're saying is that it was customary to not race until the 45km point? The first part of the sentence doesn't make this clear. Is this done every year, or just when the tour passes by this particular point. I would rewrite the sentence to specify this point.
Reworded, this wasn't actually written by me. Yes, it is customary when the Tour visits the Portet d'Aspet, I think 1998 was the first time the race was back after Casartelli died, but I am not sure. Have just removed the first part of the sentence, which should make it clearer.
  • "As the field headed the race at the bottom of the 16 km (9.9 mi) climb..." I don't understand what the field headed the race at the bottom means. I'm a cycling fan and that sentence is confusing so it will be very confusing to a non-cycling fan.
Reworded.
  • "They were also unhappy with the looming expulsion of the TVM team, against which the police had renewed their investigation which was started in March, as well as journalists going through waste containers at team hotels, searching for evidence of performance-enhancing drugs." This is a long sentence. I would split it into two where the comma after March is.
Done.
  • "Jalabert then went on the attack over a short climb with his brother Nicolas (Cofidis) and Bart Voskamp (TVM), who built up a lead of over five minutes." It's not clear whether the group built up the five-minute lead or whether it was Voskamp. The way the last part of the sentence reads suggests it was Voskamp. This needs to be reworded to make it clear whether the five-minute gap belonged to the group or a sole rider.
Clarified.
  • "He subsequently suffered from the cold..." cold weather or cold as in the illness?
Clarified.
  • "Pantani's Mercatone Uno team coped well in defending his yellow over the four..." missing a word after yellow
Reworded.
  • "he mountains classification was won by a more consistent Rinero..." change a to the
Done.
  • "First news stories..." Sentence should start with The
Done.
  • " meaning to test the amount of red cells in the blood." -> which tested how many red cells were in a rider's blood.
Done.
  • "Failing to test below the given value resulted in the rider being barred from competing for a two-week period." -> If a rider returned a value higher than 50 per cent, they were not allowed to compete for a two-week period.
Done,
  • "However, as cycling journalist Alasdair Fotheringham described it..." replace described it with noted
Done.
  • "Initially the doping suspicion..."
Done.
  • "this edition of the Tour also became nicknamed by many media sources as the "Tour de Farce." -> this edition of the Tour became known by many media sources as the "Tour de Farce."
Hmm, but that makes it sound like only the media sources know the nickname. I want to make clear that they coined the nickname. Will rephrase differently.
  • "the police's investigation against the TVM team..."
Done.
  • "revealing that eight riders took EPO and four amphetamines." revealing should be revealed as the examinations was not ongoing at this point
Done.

That's it from me. An enjoyable read of a crazy Tour! NapHit (talk) 21:26, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@NapHit: I have reacted to all the points. Hope this is satisfactory! Zwerg Nase (talk) 15:20, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All looks good to me, I'm happy to support now! Great work! NapHit (talk) 16:18, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! :) Zwerg Nase (talk) 18:10, 5 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie edit

I'll copyedit as I read through; please revert anything you disagree with.

  • and generally considered to be the most famous bike race in the world: I don't think this is needed. I looked at a few other Tour de France articles and this seems to be the only one that includes the phrase. It's certainly true, but it belongs in the parent article -- it's not a comment about this race, it's a comment about the Tour de France itself. Would you add this comment to an article about the 1905 Tour, for example?
Hmm, I added this originally in the 1989 article, but it's gone there as well, so I'll remove it here as well.
  • You define soigneur in parentheses in the body, but not in the lead; if it needs an explanation in the body it definitely needs it in the lead.
Done.
  • The second, third and fourth-placed finishers Abraham Olano, Laurent Jalabert and Bobby Julich all finished four seconds behind, with Jan Ullrich, who finished sixth, a further second behind: this doesn't match the numbers given in 1998 Tour de France, Prologue to Stage 11; which is correct? Even if this is correct I'd mention the others who finished on the same time as Ullrich -- it sounds odd to mention sixth but not fifth. You don't need to name them all, just say Ullrich was in a group that all finished with the same time.
True, that was wrong. Fixed and rewritten.
  • after the pair had broken away late from a nine-rider breakaway: rephrase to avoid "broken away from a...breakaway".
Replaced with "escaped".
  • losing the points he had earned from his tenth-place finish and ultimately the green jersey to Zabel, who finished second in the stage: "ultimately" doesn't seem like the right word; it wasn't a later or derived consequence. How about "losing the points he had earned from his tenth-place finish. Svorada's green jersey went to Zabel, who finished second in the stage."
Done.

More to come, probably tonight. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:46, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie: So far, all done. Thank you for the comments and also for the very good copyediting! Zwerg Nase (talk) 17:52, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • against which the police had renewed their investigation which was started in March: can we make this "which the police had been investigating since March", or is the fact that the investigation was now renewed a key point?
Indeed, that is the main point, as mentioned above, in March, the police didn't see much sense in investigating, only after the Festina affair broke, did they get back into it.
  • Generally the first part of that paragraph seems a bit repetitive. Right now it says Anger had grown among the riders amid the treatment of them by the police and the press in light of the evolving Festina affair. They were also unhappy with the looming expulsion of the TVM team, against which the police had renewed their investigation which was started in March. Likewise, journalists going through waste containers at team hotels, searching for evidence of performance-enhancing drugs, drew anger from the peloton. This says the riders were angry with the police, and the press, and the police, and the press. Does the first sentence refer to more than the journalists searching for evidence, and the police investigation of TVM? If so, more details would help; if not, I think this can be compressed.
True, I have cut it down.
  • the majority of the riders sat down in the road and entered into a strike. "entered into a strike" doesn't add much; I'd suggest "the majority of the riders sat down in the road and refused to start the stage" as being more direct. And what did the remaining riders do? Did they start the stage?
Well, I did not want to get into the entire saga in full detail. At the beginning, when the riders sat down, nobody moved, but some riders did not protest by sitting down. I have tried to clarify it.
  • The biggest influence during the strike was attributed to: not very fluent; can we make this something like "the leaders of the group who refused to ride", or "instigators"? and do the sources support "were" (no doubts expressed) instead of "attributed to" (implying no confirmation)?
Yes, the sources (well, mainly Fotheringham in this case) clearly name them, so I have reworded it.
  • The shortened stage was run at an average speed of 48.764 km/h (30.301 mph), breaking the Tour record of the fastest ever stage over 200 km (120 mi),[118] as well as the third-fastest of any distance stage in Tour history. I don't follow this at all. I don't see anything about the stage being shortened in any way, and you also say the riders rode very slowly to start with. Plus the distance is listed in the table above as 190 km, not over 200 km. What am I missing?
I have cut the first statement, since that indeed does not make much sense, I am unsure where Edwards takes that from, considering the stage was shortened. I don't own the book myself, so I cannot check. The fact that the stage was shortened is mentioned in the "Route and stages" section, but I will add the information here as well.
Well, you're limited by what the sources say, but I think something has to be wrong. The peloton was at one point 16 km ahead of Jalabert's group, so even if the peloton was going at a normal speed (which apparently it wasn't) Jalabert's effective speed must have been vastly faster than the average based on the start and end time of the stage. Do you have access to any other sources that give the time the stage finally began and concluded, or the duration of the ride? Something simply has to be wrong here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:32, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Mike Christie: Well, the early part of the stage, that saw no real racing, is the part that was cut. So basically, the stage only started when everybody was together again and then Jalabert went on the attack and was later caught. Apparently I will have to make that clearer. Also, the sources here are a little confusing. For instance, The Guardian claims that indeed 205 km were raced eventually, but I don't think that is true and is due to the confusion of writing a newspaper article straight after the events unfolded and retrospective sources are probably more reliable here. But one can see where the original confusion in the article came from... Zwerg Nase (talk) 19:52, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that makes sense. Supporting below. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:24, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see stage 8 is described as "hilly", though it's a flat stage; I assume "hilly" here means "hilly for a flat stage, but nothing like a mountain stage"?
Have removed this since it is confusing. Again, this comes from Edwards, which is a book I don't own. But yes, it was classified as a flat stage but had minor climbs.
  • There are a couple of stages without even a sentence devoted to them; just checking that that's deliberate (e.g. stages 9 and 14).
Stage 9 is covered right after stage 8 (van Bon the winner), same applies for stage 14, won by O'Grady. I have however not devoted seperate paragraphs to each of the minor stages, since I felt that it drew out the text too long. But I can change that if you think it's better that way.
Right, my misreading. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:32, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, they probably should, I have actually mentioned that on the talk page a long time ago. However, with going through the race articles one-by-one, I don't really find the time to sit down and do it myself...
  • Therefore, media sources coined nicknames for the race, such as the "Tour de Farce"[152][153][154] or "Tour du Dopage" (Tour of Doping). Did this happen during the Tour or as the following events unfolded? Whichever it is should be clear to the reader.
The Spiegel source suggests it was during the race, so I have clarified it. I also remember the terms being around back then, but that is not really a source, is it? :D
  • Both meetings yielded little results: I was thinking of changing this to "Neither meeting yielded..." but realized I wasn't sure if "no results" was what was meant. If so I'd make it "Neither meeting yielded useful results".
Hmm, I am a little on the fence about this, since "useful" has a normative ring to it, like the author of the article is determining what could be considered useful. I have instead changed it to a direct quotation by Fotheringham.
  • considering that the ASO had failed to comply with a thirty-day registration period: I don't understand this.
I have tried to clarify.
  • following the organisers' assessment that, unlike at TVM, the doping culture in the team had changed: needs rewording, since presumably the point was that there was no doping culture in the team any more.
I have reworded this a little bit, also to be more in line with the source and added another source from Fotheringham to make it clearer.
  • extraordinary performances in cycling have been viewed under a cover of suspicion of doping: "under a cover of suspicion" isn't quite right. Does Fotheringham mean that people suspect doping when they hear of extraordinary performances? If so, how about "have been viewed with suspicion, because of the possibility of doping"?
Done, though with a slightly different wording.

That's it from me. Some infelicitous phrasing here and there, and as a result I've copyedited a bit more than normal. Generally this seems to be in pretty good shape. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:44, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie: Thank you very very much for the thorough review! Zwerg Nase (talk) 18:12, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Struck nearly everything; just the point about the speed left -- I think something has to be wrong there. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:32, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Mike Christie: Feel free to check if this makes more sense. Zwerg Nase (talk) 20:00, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support. All issues fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:24, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note edit

Sorry but this review has been open two months and appears to have stalled despite being in the urgents list for over two weeks, so I'm going to archive. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:20, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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