Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Morgellons
Contents
- 1 Morgellons
- 1.1 Opening comments by Erythema
- 1.2 Opening comments by Drgao
- 1.3 Opening comments by TechBear
- 1.4 Opening comments by Arthur Rubin
- 1.5 Opening comments by Dbrodbeck
- 1.6 Opening comments by Dawn Bard
- 1.7 Opening comments by Zad68
- 1.8 Opening comments by Scray
- 1.9 Opening comments by Garrondo
- 1.10 Opening comments by Judgeking
- 1.11 Opening comments by Sailsbystars
- 1.12 Opening comments by BullRangifer
- 1.13 Opening comments by 137.111.13.200
- 1.14 Opening comments by 198.199.134.100
- 1.15 Discussion
- 2 Final opinion and closing comments
Morgellons
edit4 July 2013
![]() | See opinions given in text, below. — TransporterMan (TALK) 20:21, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply] |
Closed discussion |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Current scientific consensus from large, influential organizations like the CDC is that individuals with Morgellons have a delusional belief that they are infested with parasites. There is general agreement across all parties that this is indeed the scientific consensus. There is a proposal to add new content to the article; the policy cited in support of the addition is WP:NPOV. The new proposed content discusses a new theory for the origin of Morgellons, stating that there is an actual infectious parasite. This issue basically is that many editors do not agree that the sources cited meet WP:MEDRS, the medical sourcing guideline. There is general agreement that if there were WP:MEDRS-compliant reliable secondary sources supporting the new theory that such content could be included. But many editors state that as the sources are not reliable, and because WP:NPOV only applies to views presented in reliable sources, the WP:NPOV policy cannot be used in support of including the actual parasite theory. Have you tried to resolve this previously? LOTS and LOTS of discussion on the Talk page How do you think we can help? Determine consensus as to whether the sources proposed are indeed authoritative WP:MEDRS-compliant secondary sources such that per WP:NPOV the mention of the parasite theory is warranted. Opening comments by ErythemaeditPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
In a nut shell. The actual dispute is more complicated than described by the others involved with this dispute indicate. Morgellons is a controversial illness. There are 2 POVs represented in medical literature. This is evident with a PubMed search. 1 POV is that the illness is delusional in etiology. The other is that it is not and there are publications indicating that it is caused by a bacterial infection. This bacterium, Borrelia, is related to syphilis and thus explains the psychiatric manifestations experience by some patients. The predominant POV is that it is delusional, however the POV that it is infectious in etiology represents a significant minority POV and thus it deserves proportional representation. The problems are 2 fold: One, content from the infectious POV has been blocked, even for one paragraph to be included, even while leaving the existing text untouched: Two, there is a great deal of bias in the current article. It has been carefully edited to maximize the opinion that it is delusional in etiology. The references are largely cherry-picked and do not follow WP:MEDRS policy. Over half of the references come from Popular Press, i.e. newspaper articles, TV interviews and the like. One of these is even an interview with an "anonymous dermatologist" in Popular Mechanics magazine and lacks verifiability, as do the rest. These are clearly not appropriate secondary sources. Those that are from peer-reviewed medical journals are predominantly opinion pieces -- again they are not appropriate secondary sources. The remaining few are original research. This is an area of medicine undergoing active research and as such there are not many (if any) suitable secondary sources. I have proposed to add ONE small paragraph from the infectious POV on the grounds that a significant minority view needs to be represented for NPOV. They are original research, but WP:MEDRS allows original research when secondary sources are lacking. The current article has used a few original research papers. WP:MEDRS encourages the use of on-line medical journals as they can be accessed by readers, but I have been told that they are unreliable (and numerous other things). There have been false statements made that are damaging to the reputations of the medical journals publishing papers representing the infectious POV that I find offensive and objectionable. NPOV cannot be achieved as long as double standards of policy application are applied to the two viewpoints. I have repeatedly asked for reasonable and objective justification, but have yet to receive an answer that makes sense. Mostly when I bring up a valid point there is no response at all. I am a new user and WP indicates I should be welcomed and treated with patience. Instead I have been bullied and treated with hostility. If fair and proportionate representation of both POVs cannot be achieved then the current article should be deleted on the grounds that the references used to not meet WP policy.Erythema (talk) 14:49, 6 July 2013 (UTC)Erythema[reply] Opening comments by DrgaoeditThis dispute relates to the article on Morgellons disease, a disease involving skin symptoms and mental symptoms. A severe non-neutrality exists in this article, as I now describe. Amongst researchers, there are two competing views on the nature of Morgellons disease: viewpoint (1) says that Morgellons is a real skin disease manifesting body-wide skin lesions and other skin symptoms, likely caused by an infection, and also involving some concomitant mental symptoms; viewpoint (2) says that Morgellons is not a real physical disease at all, but purely a psychiatric condition called delusional parasitosis, in which sufferers self-inflict their skin wounds. This dispute relates to the fact that viewpoint (1) gets almost no mention at all in the article, and viewpoint (2) not only dominates the vast majority of the article, but furthermore, viewpoint (2) is presented as if it is an established fact. WP:WEIGHT requires that articles represent all significant viewpoints published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. So in order to determine the precise prominence of each of the two viewpoints, I have performed a full scientific literature survey of reliable sources, and by enumerating all relevant studies, I counted that there is 1 secondary study, and 9 primary studies supporting viewpoint (1), and 3 secondary studies, and 15 primary studies supporting viewpoint (2). You can the full details of all the studies I counted up HERE. Thus from these figures which quantify the prominence of each viewpoint, it is clear that viewpoint (1) should be given around ⅓ of the article text space, and viewpoint (2) around ⅔ of the article text space. But at present, viewpoint (1) occupies only a few percent of the text space. Myself (Drgao) and editor Erythema say this severe imbalance in the article completely flouts the NPOV requirements of Wikipedia, but all the other editors disagree with us, and they prevent us from adding new material to the article. Drgao (talk) 02:16, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply] MInor updates made on July 7th. Drgao (talk) 21:56, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply] Opening comments by TechBeareditI had gotten involved with the article in late May, in response to one editor trying to bring in sources from journals known to be "pay to publish." Soon after, a new editor stepped in with a different set of references, asserting that they showed the established scientific consensus to be wrong and demanding that the article be rewritten accordingly. I and others pointed out the problems in new editor's sources; rather than seek out better sources, this person fell to ad hominem attacks and accusations that Wikipedia was trying to "suppress important information" (actual quote.) I am willing to concede that the current consensus may be wrong; it certainly would not be the first time that long-standing conclusions fell to new research. However, it is my view that any evidence attempting to overturn an established position must meet a high standard of quality, and that this is especially important with regards to medical science, where the well being and even lives of people may hang in the balance. The evidence must come from reputable research sponsors, be reviewed by research experts in the field who have the skill and expertise to evaluate the methodology and conclusions, and be published in a well respected journal. It is my opinion that the sources this editor wishes to use simply do not meet this minimum standard of quality, and therefore should not be used as the basis for rewriting established consensus. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 04:03, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply] Opening comments by Arthur RubineditI agree with the opening comments by Scray; however I have an objection to the formulation of the dispute. It's not "new proposed content" or a "new theory". The theory was first proposed by Mary, and it's not even new to the article. It was removed from the article when no WP:MEDRS sources could be found. They still haven't been found. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:20, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply] Opening comments by DbrodbeckeditThere are simply no good WP:MEDRS secondary sources that say that any of these WP:FRINGE views have any use. If we include this material we would be giving WP:UNDUE weight to these fringe ideas. Many of us have tried, in vain, to explain these policies to the couple of WP:SPAs who want this material included. The ad hominem attacks and personal attacks in general, while they have toned down some, did not help matters. This material does not belong in the article, that is the bottom line. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply] Opening comments by Dawn BardeditI think the article is appropriately neutral and well sourced, and I think any objective review of the page and the talk page with WP:MEDRS, WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE in mind will support this. Sailsbystars below has presented some excellent points. This odd press release, which essentially alleges a Wikipedia conspiracy to keep the truth about Morgellons hidden, predated some of the contentious editing and discussions that have led up to this dipute resolution. I think what we really have here is a broad, policy-based consensus that the article should stand as it is for now. A couple of very passionate, largely single-purpose editors disagree with this consensus, but their efforts on the talk page have failed thus far to change the larger consensus. Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 17:06, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply] Opening comments by Zad68editMy view is that the sources offered to support the "genuine infestation/infection" view are insufficient to rise above WP:FRINGE and it would give undue prominence or legitimacy to a non-accepted fringe view to include in the article. There have been two groups of sources offered. The first included three sources, listed in the discussion here. The comments regarding the unworthiness of f1000research and the Dove Press journals there are accurate: the reliability of the journal articles doesn't meet WP:MEDRS and are not MEDLINE indexed, or even PubMed indexed at all. The list of sources given here is an excellent and comprehensive list of PubMed-indexed articles regarding the subject, and the editor who put it together is to be thanked, but the analysis offered is not in line with consensus interpretation of WP:MEDRS. Per policy, primary sources are not to be used to support a WP:DUEWEIGHT (part of WP:NPOV) argument. So, looking only at secondary sources, we have three up-to-date MEDLINE-indexed secondary sources stating Morgellons is delusional; we have a single MEDLINE indexed secondary source from 2006 that does not meet WP:MEDRS per WP:MEDDATE. This leaves three secondary sources supporting delusional, zero supporting infection. (This list also does not include other sources like the CDC, which also does not support infection.) As there are no WP:MEDRS-compliant secondary sources supporting infection, per policy the article should not cover it. (Note I will be away most of the weekend, back maybe Saturday or Sunday night.) Opening comments by ScrayeditI hope that this process will help us move past the current cycle, which consumes energy (and has often included ad hominem attacks) but does not seem to be progressing. The article currently addresses the minority viewpoint that Morgellon disease has an infectious etiology, with due weight considering the strong consensus in high-quality sources that this is a delusional parasitosis (rather than infection) syndrome. Primary reports in low-quality journals should not be used to refute the strong consensus in high-quality secondary sources. -- Scray (talk) 04:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply] Opening comments by GarrondoeditPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Opening comments by JudgekingeditPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Opening comments by SailsbystarseditPlease limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
So I've never been to one of these before, but I think the most relevant thing I can do is quote my comparison of the proposed sources and existing sources for the article, and why the former should not have undue weight in the article. Sailsbystars (talk) 07:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply] The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. ... there are some commonalities in all science fields. Dubious research gets published all the time (hence the phrase "publishing in a peer reviewed journal is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for acceptance") in every field. There are several common threads of fringe research that cross all disciplines of research:
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Opening comments by BullRangifereditAn important aspect of this dispute is whether advocates of a fringe idea (that Morgellons is a real dermatologic condition, rather than a form of delusional parasitosis) can use Wikipedia to promote that POV as a mainstream POV, or of at least equal worth to the mainstream scientific POV on the subject (which is that it's a form of delusional parasitosis). They believe that NPOV is violated when they are not given equal due weight. Sorry, but that's not true. They fail to understand NPOV. They constantly use primary studies to make their point, in violation of MEDRS. This is not the place to make cutting edge pronouncements. For one thing, being on the cutting edge means you're on the wrong side of the knife. Yes, that's a joke, but for Wikipedia, it's the way we apply our sourcing policies. We are always supposed to be "behind the curve," never on the leading edge of publishing new facts. IF (that's a big IF) this ever turns out to be proven to be a new dermatologic condition, the major dermatology organizations will state that fact in unequivocal terms. When that happens, and not before then, the POV pushed by these believers will have to remain the fringe position, in opposition to the mainstream one, which happens to be that these editors are pushing a delusional belief. Until then, their POV will be documented, but not given equal weight with the current scientific consensus. The article content and due weight balance will indeed change when large literature reviews that are not affiliated with those who make a living from pushing this fringe POV start to clearly document it as a new disease. Independent replication of research results must happen again and again. Then we'll definitely document that fact, and Morgellons will be presented here at Wikipedia as a new disease. It will happen, but a short time AFTER it happens in the real world. These editors must be patient and stop disrupting Wikipedia. They are a huge time sink and need to be blocked, or, at the least, immediately topic banned. That several of them are delusional happens to be a fact, since several of them have admitted to being sufferers, and even admitted to having mental health issues. Too bad about that, but this is not the place to push a POV based on primary sources, often from "paid to publish" sources, or fringe scientists affiliated with the modern creator of the term "Morgellons". -- Brangifer (talk) 06:23, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply] Opening comments by 137.111.13.200editThe research group that released the content that is being discussed in this section was funded through a foundation that solicits donations ostensibly from Morgellons sufferers. There is therefore a financial interest in the dissemination of this particular group's content. The articles themselves are primary sources, which significantly contradict other primary and secondary sources. This is most likely due to methodological differences which are best judged through secondary sources, and thus we should wait until these become available. The author of the study discussed authored a press release targeting editors on the Morgellons wikipedia page. I am lead to believe it likely that this author is pressuring editors on the talk page to include their work on the main page, under the username "Erythema". The anonymity of wikipedia users is an important dimension, however if someone is trying to insert their own work into an article, especially when that work is challenged as a reliable source, then the potential conflict of interests should be addressed. I don't think avoiding the question serves anyone's purposes in this case.137.111.13.200 (talk) 04:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply] Opening comments by 198.199.134.100editAt this point, I no longer find it reasonable to assume good faith on the part of the editors favoring the inclusion of fringe research. One of them has now created a sockpuppet account to try and "mediate" the dispute. Erythema shows strong signs of actually being one of the fringe researchers who recently issued a press release decrying Wikipedia's policies (and did not deny it when directly asked). Drgao is operating under the idea that because the concensus of the medical community now supports the existence of some other condition that Drgao suffers from, we should include fringe research about Morgellons; Drgao also repeatedly misrepresents studies or quotes from studies that do not support his views as doing so and even claimed that an opinion piece published well before any modern primary sources about Morgellons (the other two predate the current scientific method, one predates Pasteur) was a "secondary source". Neither has contributed to any other Wikipedia article. There are one or two other editors in favor of fringe research, but they don't appear to be meaningfully contributing to the discussion. I realize the named editors sincerely believe Morgellons is a non-delusional condition, but deliberate dishonesty is not a valid method of seeking editor concensus. 198.199.134.100 (talk) 00:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
DiscussioneditPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
Please note the following ANI discussion regarding this DRN: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Disruptive_editing_and_intervention.
Invoking mediation controls: For the present time, in light of the controversy pending here, I am assuming the role of mediator here and invoking the rules set out at Wikipedia:MEDIATION#Control_of_mediation to exercise the right to edit this discussion as if it were my own user talk page, which includes the right to refactor, strike, or remove any edits which I feel are inappropriate. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:58, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply] Opening statements: Editors who have not yet made opening statements should feel free to go ahead and make them in their respective sections, above, and are advised to do so as promptly as possible. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:43, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply] Update: It would appear that InLoveNoi has indeed withdrawn as a DRN volunteer (actually, has ceased editing since being told by a sysop to withdraw or be blocked). I have de-collapsed, but left closed, the foregoing discussion and will await further opening statements. I have, further, redacted via strikeout all procedural discussions above so as to leave only discussions about the substance of the dispute. While the remaining discussions are premature and I will not allow them to continue at this time, they are what they are and they should not be removed from the record. If discussion does proceed, then we can give them as much or as little weight as they may deserve. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:21, 5 July 2013 (UTC) Further update: InLoveNoi is now indefinitely blocked as a sockpuppet. — TransporterMan (TALK) 21:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Inquiry to all partieseditAs long as I've been doing dispute resolution, I have no doubt that I have at least crossed paths with some of the editors in this case. I will represent to you that to the extent that I have done so I have not formed any opinions or impressions which would cause me to be biased either against them or in their favor. Indeed, I don't have any particular memories of any of you except that some of your usernames seem familiar to me. That does not mean that I have not had strong interactions and even confrontations or commiserations with some of you. It only means that I don't remember them if I did. If any come back to mind, I will immediately disclose them here. (If anyone wants to check my prior interactions with everyone here, more power to you: You can use the tool here to do so. Let me know if you find anything.} But my point is this: If you want to lodge an objection to my further participation, do it now, not later, unless I subsequently discuss a connection. Also, if any of you have had interactions with me, good or bad, which might bias me please say so now and I'll specifically check those out. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC) PS: Feel free to answer or address this inquiry, below, but do not begin discussing the dispute yet. — TM[reply]
Initial ground ruleseditThe following are adopted pursuant to Wikipedia:MEDIATION#Control_of_mediation, and are subject to supplementation, revision, or revocation at any time.
Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply] Beginning the mediationeditRead the "Initial ground rules" section, above. Your continued participation in this mediation constitutes complete acceptance of the foregoing rules. As I understand it, this is a NPOV dispute with certain editors wishing to include material in the article saying that Morgellons is an actual, as opposed to mental, disease or condition. Other editors oppose that inclusion because they claim that the sources are insufficiently reliable to include it. Although one editor, Erythema, also claims that the existing material about Morgellons being a mental condition is also inadequately sourced, I do not see that as the primary matter in dispute in this case except perhaps as a question of what balance to give the competing views if the real-disease theory proves to be includable. From my point of view, to try to decide how much space and/or weight to give the real-disease theory before deciding whether or not it can be included at all is putting the horse before the cart and I do not intend to discuss or allow discussion of that issue until the other issue is resolved, at which time we may go on to the proper-weight issue.
Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think an additional problem is that some editors are claiming that some studies or portions thereof support the "actual disease" hypothesis when they clearly do not. Where the studies have a "conclusions" section, I'd like to seek agreement that we judge the study as supporting that conclusion instead of quote mining the study. 198.199.134.100 (talk) 23:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Moving forward with CeditThough we've not heard from Arthur Rubin, I've taken a long look at his user page, user status, and history and believe that we can expect that he will respect any result we reach here even if he has not specifically agreed to option C, so that's what we are going to go with.
So stop and engage in a bit of self-examination for a moment. Let's say I come back with a decision that is to the absolute opposite of what you think is right and with either no explanation of it (I reserve the right to just decide without explanation, though it's not likely that's what I'll do) or with an explanation that you think is dead wrong. What I'm asking of you is whether on your honor you can commit right now to gritting your teeth and living with that result without rejecting it, arguing against it, carping about it, or finagling a way around it. There's no dishonor in saying no, but only if you do it now. Here we go: I've carefully avoided studying the issue until now, just so I could be neutral in setting all this up and in giving the question a fair reading when the time came. From now through next Monday, I'm going to start studying the issue. If anyone either wants to back out on the agreement after the introspection I've just asked for, or if anyone wants to make any comments about any of the specific sources listed above, feel free to do so below, but do it before 11:59 UTC on Monday, July 15, 2013. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Erythema: At the article talk page you have asserted several times that, "There are provisions for relaxation of the No original research policy when secondary sources are lacking." While I don't think that assertion is going to affect the answer of what I'm considering at this point in time, I'd like to make sure. Please identify the provisions that you're talking about. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:26, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Opinion and call for additional argumentseditIt also says: And says: While other portions of MEDRS are also applicable, it is my belief that except for two or perhaps three of the sources that none of the listed sources are sufficiently reliable to be cited in the article due to substantial doubt about their publishers having the "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" required by WP:SOURCES. Note that I said WP:SOURCES, not WP:MEDRS. By that I mean to say that I do not believe that they meet even the standard needed for ordinary sources at Wikipedia. When one filters that through the higher standard required by WP:MEDRS, I believe that there is no possibility that they could serve as reliable sources for medical articles. The articles which I have reference to here are those published by F1000, Dove Press, and OMICS. That leaves the three articles published by Springer, BioMed, and British Medical Journal. The publishers of the first and third are clearly reliable and I am uncertain about BioMed. I believe the BMJ article, which is merely a 1946 letter to the journal is, however, both too old and too anecdotal to be of any use in the article except perhaps to provide some historical information if and when the disease theory can positively appear in the article in depth. That leaves the Springer ("The mystery of Morgellons disease", Savely, Leitao, and Stricker) and BioMed ("Morgellons disease, illuminating", Harvey, Bransfield, Mercer, Leitao, et al) articles. I would like to hear arguments about why or why not those two particular articles do or do not qualify as MEDRS-reliable sources and should or should not be used in the article. In that regard, I would also welcome comments about why the CDC study is appropriate for the article, but those two articles are or are not. Any participant may respond below and I'll receive arguments through 23:59 UST on Thursday, July 18. Please do not respond to one another's arguments, simply make your own case. This opinion is final as to the other sources, please refrain from commenting on them; any comments on the F1000, Dove Press, OMICS, and BMJ sources will be disregarded and deleted. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 21:44, 16 July 2013 (UTC) PS: If you assert that something is determined by a policy or guideline, please provide a link to the specific section of the policy or guideline you are asserting. — TransporterMan (TALK) 21:50, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Final opinion and closing commentseditBased on the opening and foregoing arguments and on my own personal investigation into the matter, I find that:
Though some participants have indicated that they would like this opinion to extend beyond the mere question of source reliability into the issue of what weight and balance to give any sources which proved to be reliable and to the question of whether the existing sources in the article are reliable to support the psychological theory. I believe that would be beyond the scope of this request and that those matters need to be more fully discussed at the article talk page in light of this opinion and so must decline that request. Thanks to all the participants for their cooperation and patience in this matter. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:21, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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