William but not Grace
Joined 6 September 2023
Latest comment: 8 months ago by 2A00:23C5:218D:2301:1D30:B6AB:955D:F477 in topic September 2023
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September 2023 edit
Hello. Your recent edit to Consett appears to have added the name of a non-notable entity to a list that normally includes only notable entries. In general, a person, organization or product added to a list should have a pre-existing article before being added to most lists. If you wish to create such an article, please first confirm that the subject qualifies for a separate, stand-alone article according to Wikipedia's notability guideline. Thank you. Tacyarg (talk) 15:09, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying, it seems a shame given that Chairmanship of the Society for Italic Handwriting would qualify for notability in its own terms (John Betjeman and Humphrey Lyttleton were previous postholders) and the links I hope are unambiguous, but I wouldn't feel confident creating a stand-alone article if that's the sole requirement. The stand-alone notability guidelines seem frankly baffling to me. I simply heard the BBC broadcast (which stated 'originally from Consett his music is of global reach' or something of that order! and did some research. I wouldn't wish to offend anyone. William 109.151.235.140 (talk) 15:57, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- I'll have a hunt at the weekend and see if I can find enough material and sources for an article. The phrase from the broadcast is striking as you say. Best wishes, Tacyarg (talk) 19:41, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- I'm very grateful to you for not just dismissing my error. I had a think about it and it occurred to me to check to see if there was a wikipedia Society for Italic Handwriting page (an obvious first port of call I'd overlooked), there isn't. If you go to Humphrey Lyttleton's page, it is mentioned but the link is in red (removed, or intended to be added at some point?) It's also mentioned on Sir Theodore McEvoy's page, but not on Sir Patrick Nairne's page (presidents and chairmen appear to be at least offered knighthoods, the charity had royal patronage for many years; both Lyttelton and Neville appear to have turned down honours), Nairne was both Vice-President and Chairman, Lyttleton was President and previously Chairman. Neville by my maths is the longest serving chairman. It's not mentioned on Alec Clifton-Taylor's wiki page, but his Times obit. I believe does mention it. Sybil Cholmondeley, Marchioness of Cholmondeley's wiki page makes no mention of her Presidency. Her husband's wiki page mentions his Presidency but again there is no link to a Society for Italic Handwriting wiki page. What this has thrown up for me is that there are these people, notable in their own walks of life, with a connectivity that appears completely off the page. The Society is significant enough to have a lengthy reference on Britannia for example, and it would seem that not only could several of wiki's own existing notable entities benefit from being tied together or expanded but a few new notable entities could potentially be added. Aside from Neville, Abbot Patrick Barry (there's a nice Telegraph obit.) was a VP and has no wiki page. The current President Ewan Clayton, has no wiki page, but amongst other accomplishments I see he recently designed Queen Camilla's monogram (everyone connected with the society appears to have significant links to both the arts and the royal family). I feel if I could do anything vaguely useful it would be to present a case for adding a Society for Italic Handwriting page and using that to more properly reference some of the achievements of existing wikipedia notables while at the same time perhaps adding one or two more (both living and dead). I've laboured that a bit in the hope that the ground I've covered might assist you in the way that my attempted editing only hindered. Neville's 'notable' potential is limited to the album outside of the Society and the book he edited, because all I could find was he was a moral philosophy don at Durham University, St Mary's College and Grey college have cited him as an exec. member of their senior common rooms at one time or another (Grey said entertainment secretary, St Mary's 'membership secretary'). His record was even on sale in Tower Records Japan I found, which I admit tickled me for someone from Consett. Apart from that, like many connected with the Society, he appears rather an enigma in terms of online content. 2A00:23C5:218D:2301:50EA:FEBF:8A6E:1CE1 (talk) 15:26, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, that is helpful. Starting with creating Society for Italic Handwriting may be the way to go. Will have a look on Sunday. Tacyarg (talk) 20:44, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- Hi, I've created the article - please have a look and make amendments if you find anything to add or that needs editing. I have put some comments about further work on the Talk page, including articles for notable linked people who don't yet have them. I agree it's an odd niche organisation (McEvoy calls it "cranky" in a letter to Mary Whitehouse) that seems to have attracted people who also had other achievements; a definite part of the arts and crafts revival I think. I'm sure there are other sources, not online, probably in diaries and memoirs of the post-war period. Tacyarg (talk) 08:12, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
- It's splendid and reflects a lot of effort.
- https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=aRszAQAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=italic+handwriting
- I can't see 'Signature' listed anywhere there, probably an oversight of mine. A couple of hours with the Society's own website gives me only 'Bulletin', 'Journal', 'Newsletter' (some of which were hand produced by Humphrey Lyttelton apparently and seem to have been interim publications in a different format, as an aside...), and 'Writing Matters' (which your document states was the Journal renamed).
- Nville, Foster (Summer 2021). "A Word from the Chair" (PDF). Writing Matters. 85. Retrieved 11 September 2023. Should be Neville (missing /e/) - but I'll come to something more useful in a moment.
- On the presidents past and present page of the Society's own site https://www.italic-handwriting.org/history/presidents which you used for the Cholmondeleys etc., Officers Past and Present gives the details for 1981 – 1987: The Rt. Hon. Sir Patrick Nairne, GCB, MC, as Chairman and Neville's dates as 2008 – to present? here - https://www.italic-handwriting.org/history/officers
- Tom Gourdie was actually the Society's only stated 'Honorary Life Member' in its history, the date is here (presumably until death) https://m.facebook.com/TheSocietyForItalicHandwriting/photos/handwriting-by-tom-gourdie-mbe-da-fssi-18-may-1913-6-january-2005-who-did-much-t/1290462837753277/ It is mentioned on his own wiki page (sans date). The sort of thing I could try adding myself?
- Neville's linked in page lists him as chair https://uk.linkedin.com/in/foster-neville-281383141 (and not much else, following the pattern...) I see people citing linkedin as a valid reference on wikipedia, I'm not so sure myself, however less ambiguously factual is the government's own active list of Chair and Trustees here https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-search/-/charity-details/287889/trustees
- This makes me wonder if Mark Russell is this Mark Russell - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Francis_Russell - I'm afraid I don't have an answer. However, the Society publication Writing Matters as cited by yourself titles him as Mark Russell CBE. Which narrows the field a bit, and I think it is this Mark Russell who appears on that government register with Neville, where both are Trustees (you'll need to scroll down I'm afraid, they use pop up boxes rather than separate pages) - https://www.ukgi.org.uk/who-we-are/senior-team/ I feel the charity commission record is a more reliable third party citation for current chair and trustee status. (plus Mark Russell as a notable member entry too?)
- In the interests of gender representation, Anna Hornby is interesting and worthy of note, also - https://archives.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/repositories/2/resources/3048 - this is a useful little biog of her and she was the first (honorary) secretary, an important role in the establishing of a society I should think. Perhaps as a 'notable member' entry again? She has a wiki page of her own (so many Society members seem to anyway): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Hornby - again, I think over time there's a bit of tying in and tidying up could be done to the benefit of many existing individual entries. When I'm more confident I might try tweaking one or two myself, connecting where appropriate.
- https://archives.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/agents/corporate_entities/1031
- I'm not sure having looked at it whether it represents a 'corporate' donation or an individual one, either way it probably records the establishment and early years of the Society as the papers are both Hornby's and Alfred Fairbank's.
- David Nicholls, CB, CMG was it seems this David Nicholls - Assistant NATO Secretary-General for Defence Planning and Policy (1980–84). Britain's 'Mr Nuclear' in the 1980s, no less. No existing wiki page unless he's under a slightly different name?
- As you say it seems one of those magnificently eccentric organisations that the English once did so well. I was genuinely fascinated by what you turned up. I'd read a book on it!
- If you want me to attempt any of the above myself let me know, now I've found them I could certainly try if they involve only baby steps.
- (for other, reference only): Instead of having to listen to the broadcast to hear the quote about 'Consett' and Neville, it's actually printed here - https://subexoticrecords.bandcamp.com/album/the-edge-of-destruction 2A00:23C5:218D:2301:1D30:B6AB:955D:F477 (talk) 16:42, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
- Hi, I've created the article - please have a look and make amendments if you find anything to add or that needs editing. I have put some comments about further work on the Talk page, including articles for notable linked people who don't yet have them. I agree it's an odd niche organisation (McEvoy calls it "cranky" in a letter to Mary Whitehouse) that seems to have attracted people who also had other achievements; a definite part of the arts and crafts revival I think. I'm sure there are other sources, not online, probably in diaries and memoirs of the post-war period. Tacyarg (talk) 08:12, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, that is helpful. Starting with creating Society for Italic Handwriting may be the way to go. Will have a look on Sunday. Tacyarg (talk) 20:44, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- I'm very grateful to you for not just dismissing my error. I had a think about it and it occurred to me to check to see if there was a wikipedia Society for Italic Handwriting page (an obvious first port of call I'd overlooked), there isn't. If you go to Humphrey Lyttleton's page, it is mentioned but the link is in red (removed, or intended to be added at some point?) It's also mentioned on Sir Theodore McEvoy's page, but not on Sir Patrick Nairne's page (presidents and chairmen appear to be at least offered knighthoods, the charity had royal patronage for many years; both Lyttelton and Neville appear to have turned down honours), Nairne was both Vice-President and Chairman, Lyttleton was President and previously Chairman. Neville by my maths is the longest serving chairman. It's not mentioned on Alec Clifton-Taylor's wiki page, but his Times obit. I believe does mention it. Sybil Cholmondeley, Marchioness of Cholmondeley's wiki page makes no mention of her Presidency. Her husband's wiki page mentions his Presidency but again there is no link to a Society for Italic Handwriting wiki page. What this has thrown up for me is that there are these people, notable in their own walks of life, with a connectivity that appears completely off the page. The Society is significant enough to have a lengthy reference on Britannia for example, and it would seem that not only could several of wiki's own existing notable entities benefit from being tied together or expanded but a few new notable entities could potentially be added. Aside from Neville, Abbot Patrick Barry (there's a nice Telegraph obit.) was a VP and has no wiki page. The current President Ewan Clayton, has no wiki page, but amongst other accomplishments I see he recently designed Queen Camilla's monogram (everyone connected with the society appears to have significant links to both the arts and the royal family). I feel if I could do anything vaguely useful it would be to present a case for adding a Society for Italic Handwriting page and using that to more properly reference some of the achievements of existing wikipedia notables while at the same time perhaps adding one or two more (both living and dead). I've laboured that a bit in the hope that the ground I've covered might assist you in the way that my attempted editing only hindered. Neville's 'notable' potential is limited to the album outside of the Society and the book he edited, because all I could find was he was a moral philosophy don at Durham University, St Mary's College and Grey college have cited him as an exec. member of their senior common rooms at one time or another (Grey said entertainment secretary, St Mary's 'membership secretary'). His record was even on sale in Tower Records Japan I found, which I admit tickled me for someone from Consett. Apart from that, like many connected with the Society, he appears rather an enigma in terms of online content. 2A00:23C5:218D:2301:50EA:FEBF:8A6E:1CE1 (talk) 15:26, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- I'll have a hunt at the weekend and see if I can find enough material and sources for an article. The phrase from the broadcast is striking as you say. Best wishes, Tacyarg (talk) 19:41, 6 September 2023 (UTC)