User talk:The Four Deuces/Archives/2010/April

Democratic Party is not liberal?

WTH do you mean by 'No academic consensus'? Even if there is not, the platform is clearly center-left or liberal; look at this for proof. What exactly is 'centrist' about liberal causes like abortion rights, homosexual rights, gun control, progressive taxation, etc. TN05 00:11, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

The question is not whether they are liberal, but whether they fall exclusively on the center-left in the political spectrum. There is clear evidence that they don't, although I had to compromise with a previous user who really wanted to remove the term centrist from the lead. Broadly speaking, the Democrats are a centrist party, although we are giving due weight to highly reputable sources who also explicitly call them center-left or say they represent center-left modern liberalism. I agree with the revert by Deuces, and I think you should take your complaints to the talk page before everything spirals out of control.UBER ^(talk) 00:15, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

No. You have yet to tell me why they are centrist, and they are not. The party is controlled by liberals, the platform is liberal, so they are center-left at the very least, if not liberal. What you added contradicts what the article says in the second sentence. TN05 00:21, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Liberalism is centrist by normal definitions, while socialism is left-wing. The policies of the Democratic Party are no more left-wing than those of the Conservative Party of the UK for example, and none of the issues mentioned by Toa are traditional left-right issues. Progressive income taxation is actually used in every western nation, no matter what stripe of party is in power. The Four Deuces (talk) 00:25, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Liberalism is not centrism. Socialism is far-left, Liberalism is center-left. I advise you read Centrism and Centre-left; your personal opinion of this is not correct. Also, we are talking about american liberalism, not worldwide liberalism; European 'Conservative' parties tend to be more leftist than American ones. In the scope of American politics, the Democratic Party is Center-left; in the scope of European politics, it would be considered centrist, as their politics are more left-leaning. TN05 00:31, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

(out) TNo5, by your definition then both US parties, which are committed to versions of liberalism are center-left, while the governing party of the United Kingdom (America's closest ally), which is socialist, is far-left. What do you call communists and anarchists? The Four Deuces (talk) 14:48, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

You are incorrect about the U.S. parties; the Republican Party promotes conservatism, which is similar to Classic liberalism. It is not liberal by modern definition, however. This is what I consider each to be:

• Extreme Left - Communism, Nazism/Fascism
• Far-left- Democratic Socialism/Social Democrat (U.K. Labour Party, U.S. Green Party )
• Centre-Left - American Liberalism (Democrat Party)
• Centre - Liberal Conservatism (U.K. Conservative Party)
• Centre-Right - Conservatism (U.S. Republican Party)
• Right wing (Not far right) - Libertarianism (U.S. Libertarian Party)
• Far-right - Christian right
• Extreme Left - Anarchism

By definition, right-leaning parties favor less government, left-leaning parties favor more government. TN05 —Preceding undated comment added 20:31, 11 April 2010 (UTC).

That is completely ahistorical. UK Conservatives have supported mercantile, classical liberal, modern liberal and neoliberal economic policies. Even in the US "conservatives" have supported both regulation (Hamilton) and de-regulation (Reagan). One of your examples belies your theory - you place both anarchism and communism on the far left, even though anarchists favor no government not more government. And fascist economic policies were identitical to those of their Conservative Party coalition partners. Today's European fascists have however adopted American libertarian policies. My guess is that you have been reading Jonah Goldberg or John Birch Society literature, which is fine, but does not represent a mainstream view of the subject. The Four Deuces (talk) 21:15, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Hamilton leaned left on the spectrum for his time, supporting a large government and loose contructionisms. Also, did you even read where I placed The UK Conservative Party? As of now, it is centrist. It may have been all of those at some point, but it is not now. I did not place anarchism on the extreme left, I placed it on the extreme right. I have not read either of those; this is entirely my own opinion. My chart is based on whether or not the philosophy in question supports large government, which Naziam/fascism leans towards, supporting state-run industries. TN05

Can you provide any sources that Hamilton was considered to be on the left of the spectrum? Incidentally, who do you think was the left-wing in the French Revolution that occurred around the same era? The Four Deuces (talk) 21:56, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Jefferson and the Democratic-Republican Party were on the political right; common sense says his opponents would be on the left of him. Back then, however, the left in the US was not as it was today; it was still probably centrist or center-right by today's standards, hence why I said for his time. In addition, the left-wing during the French Revolution consisted of many radical populists; the right was mainly aristocrats and former government officials. The center was pretty much the non-extreme segment then. The definition of left and right differ by situation and country/region. TN05 22:30, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Where are getting this information about the left-right spectrum among the American revolutionaries? The Four Deuces (talk) 22:39, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Facts. Jefferson's party was on the political right, as well as Hamilton's. They both supported causes on the right of the political spectrum then; Jefferson's was simply farther than Hamilton's. TN05 22:43, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Please provide a source that says this. The Four Deuces (talk) 22:47, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

• Democratic Party (United States)
  • Historical ideology: Classic Liberalism, State's Right's, Paleoconservatism

• Federalist Party
  • Ideology: Nationalism.

TN05 22:54, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I do not see the terms left or right used. Where are you getting them from? The Four Deuces (talk) 23:05, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Look at the infobox. I'm really starting to get tired of this argument. TN05 00:18, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

The info-box for the Democrats is for the party today (not the 1700s) and is unsourced (if you remember we were discussing whether the information in that article was accurate). The info-box for the federalists does not say whether they were left or right. Can you provide any sources that the federalists the left-wing party? The Four Deuces (talk) 00:26, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I never said they were left wing; I said they were left of the DRs, which is still roughly centre-right. TN05 01:03, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

The federalists were more conservative than the DRs and therefore to their right. If you have any sources that contradict this could you please tell me me what they are. The Four Deuces (talk) 14:46, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Give me a source for that statement. TN05 00:02, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Kirk and Rossiter said that they were the conservative party, Lipset noted that the federalists were the Right. The Four Deuces (talk) 12:09, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

According to that then, were the Democratic Republicans left? Thomas Jefferson was certainly not leftist. TN05 00:32, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

No one said they were, just that they were to the left of the federalists. The Four Deuces (talk) 11:55, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Instances of synthesis and bias in Mass killings under Communist Regimes

I will be away from my computer for the next several hours, but I will respond as needed when I get back. AmateurEditor (talk) 20:36, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Yorkshirian?

FYI: Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Yorkshirian.   Will Beback  talk  05:50, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Richard Tylman

Because the article has been nominated for deletion three times, the fourth nomination should be located at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Richard Tylman (4th nomination). Best, Cunard (talk) 00:37, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. TFD (talk) 01:03, 26 April 2010 (UTC)