Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catalan-speaking countries/Style advice

An attempt at consistency

@Avocado J, Kingsif, Eloi Montes, AlanWCollins, Impru20, Rwxrwxrwx, and Liam987: & members of WikiProject Spain/WikiProject Catalonia

Hi everyone! I've been attempting to write a Manual of Style for all the areas which speak Catalan (but generally areas in Spain), but as you all know, this is a very controversial topic. Therefore, per Wiki guidelines, I am attempting to get some sort of consensus on each of the (even if barely) controversial topics, which will make sure that these articles are as consistent as possible. I've written the draft so far with what I think is the most NPOV approaches, but obviously people disagree, which is why this is here. Please place your discussion points past my comments on each one.

Politicans in lead (specific to Catalonia Valencia & Balearics but mainly Catalonia)

1. All Spanish
2. All Catalan/Valencian/Balearic
3. All Spanish-Catalan/Valencian/Balearic
4. Depending on their views (ie Carles Puigdemont Catalan; Ines Arrimades Spanish)

I believe this has already reached consensus, with: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2018 archive#RfC on use of Spanish regional identity in biography leads.

@TheKaloo: Agree. Quercinus (talk) 16:58, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Others that aren't politicans (specific to Catalonia Valencia & Balearics)

1. All Spanish
2. All Catalan/Valencian/Balearics
3. All Spanish-Catalan/V/B
4. Depending on their views

This has been subject of many discussions on the Antoni Gaudí talk page and it seems there has been some sort of consensus with number 4, but it was never formally resolved so there might be basis for changing that in the future. An RfC would be nice to have but alas, we don't.

@TheKaloo: Maybe I'm missing some previous debate here, but I don't understand the distinction between politicians/other that aren't politicians, since Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2018 archive#RfC on use of Spanish regional identity in biography leads does not apply only to politicians. In consequence, I think it must work the same way for all people, no matter their occupation. --Quercinus (talk) 16:58, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Location names (specific to Spain)

1. All in Spanish
2. All in Catalan
3. Official name
4. Common name

From what I can tell, the only serious discussion of this was on the Menorca page. I think we all can agree for Catalan names in Catalonia and Spanish names for La Franja. A bit more controversial but still I expect a consensus in favour of Catalan names for the Balearic Islands. The difficult part is Valencia because some are in Spanish and some are in Valencian, so we should try and stick to either all Valencian or all Spanish.

@TheKaloo: I don't agree with Spanish names for places from La Franja. Precisely, it is a Catalan-speaking region where Catalan is hardly minorised and endonyms should be used when possible, except those well-established or common names in English (which I guess is none, except maybe Fraga). Moreover, the government of Aragon has recently initiated a policy of recognision of toponyms in Catalan and Aragonese language: here [1] you can read the document with the official bilingual names of municipalities.

Even more, Catalan must be clearly the only language for names from Balearic Islands, where Catalan is the only official language in toponymics: here [2] you will find a list of them. In fact, it occurs exactly the same in Catalonia or in Andorra.

For the Valencian Country, Catalan/Valencian names should be used for places in the Catalan/Valencian linguistic area, meanwhile Spanish names should be used in the Spanish-speaking zones.

Finally, I don't know why you decided to constrain the debate only inside Spain, when Catalan-speaking countries include also French and Italian territories and Andorra. Anyway, the same logic for La Franja works for Northern Catalonia (Roussillon), where a joint effort of institutions from both sides of the Pyrenees has given form to an exhaustive Nomenclator [3]. --Quercinus (talk) 16:58, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Name of Valencia

1. Valencian Community
2. Valencian Country
3. Valencian Region
4. Valencia (Region)

This is probably out of the scope of what we are choosing here, but there has been lots of conversations on this and from what I can see there is a consensus for number 1.

@TheKaloo: It may exist a consensus, but the truth is that Valencian Community is a recent-days neologism. I think that in major articles should be stated that many Valencians (in fact, the majority of those who speak Catalan/Valencian) refer to it as Valencian Country (País Valencià). It its extremely easy to check and find references. Valencian Region had been used during Francoist dictatorship and no one uses that name anymore. --Quercinus (talk) 16:58, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Please tell me if I missed anything, but these seem to be the main sticking points I've thought of while writing this. ping me when responding, gràcies! TheKaloo talk 13:58, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Since nobody has responded, I'm guessing nobody has any objections to what I wrote. Therefore, I've now published it. ping me when responding, gràcies! TheKaloo talk 19:00, 2 September 2020 (UTC) (pending an admin move) ping me when responding, gràcies! TheKaloo talk 19:08, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@TheKaloo: FWIW I belatedly support this. It seems to be a balanced presentation of the issues. So there would need to be some balancing of WP:CATMOS with WP:ESMOS In ictu oculi (talk) 07:48, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi: Great, thanks. Yeah, balancing the other ones would be nice, but for now I guess this will be good enough for now. Also, by CATMOS im guessing you mean WikiProject Catalonia, right? I can't find their MoS, but if their is one I can go edit it a bit. TheKaloo (Talk to me) 12:18, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi, yes, but neither can I, WP:CATMOS should exist, even as a draft. Maybe this page here is it? In ictu oculi (talk) 13:08, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi: since this is the parent WikiProject of WP Catalonia, I guess this MoS covers them too. TheKaloo (Talk to me) 00:42, 5 September 2020 (UTC)