Shankos14

April 2020

Hello, I'm The C of E. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions to London Welsh RFC have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Teahouse. Thanks. The article you're looking for is at London Welsh Amateur. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 05:49, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Hello there- that is very disappointing as a lot of time has gone into making the changes so that the page is more accurate.the majority of the changes were also well referenced to provide their accuracy? The problem is that as it stands the article is incorrect in places and is also outdated wildly in others. As a very basic start the opening line saying London Welsh 'was' - of course London Welsh still very much 'is'

It seems to me that you have not accepted any of the changes that were made? So none of then were deemed worth while?

Many of them were simply updating the page after the end of this season of rugby ie new club officials, playing record this season and promotion.....can you tell me how I can make these changes and make the page more accurate without the changes being undone?

Thank you Shankos14 (talk) 08:49, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

First of all, you'll need to cite all of that and you cannot just copy verbaitum from another source, especially not one that is WP:POV like the club's official webpage. Secondly, you're adding stuff in the wrong article. Anything post the 2017 liquidation should be in the London Welsh Amateur page as the LWRFC covers the original club with the lineage, LWA covers the club that adopted the London Welsh name following the liquidation in Herts/Middlesex. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 08:57, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

There is no London Welsh Amateur it is one and the same club - the company running London Welsh has always been called London Welsh Amateur so as to guard against the liquidation that happened in 2017. You can see from the RFU register and leagues that there is no London Welsh Amateur it is London Welsh. The old amatuer Druids were amalgamated into the London Welsh club in 2017 not the other way around (legally) and they now play in the merit leagues as the second team - if you look at the RFU website and search Middlesex Merit League 1 you can see this.

Ultimately, I am a board director of London Welsh and it was raised at our last board meeting that wikipedia is incorrect and I have been tasked with resolving it. Is wikipedia is the first that appears on google searches it is important to us that it is correct - also I would have thought important to wikipedia that it is correct?

How do we go from here - if you could tell me what is needed to effect changes that are required then that would be great. At the moment it's a really mixed message ie the site you prevented me from updating has Rhodri Dawes as top points scorer, david gabe as top try scorer and Danny Griffoths as chairman. These are current and are part of the current playing squad and management board (danny).

As a final point the name, trademark and copyright (IP) for London Welsh is held and always has been by that entity I refer above as london Welsh amateur - crucially trading as London Welsh - as I say they are one and the same.

Really appreciate your help and look forward to hearing how we can progress

Jon Shankos14 (talk) 10:25, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Ah, therein is a problem then. You have a WP:COI if you are a board director and thus should not be editing the page. The sources in the Amateur page affirm that the Amateur club held a separate membership of the RFU from the main LW team (in essance, legally a separate club just like London Irish Amateur). When London Welsh were liquidated, the Amateur club continued as normal but simply adopted the name of LW. As for the scorers and chairman, you would need a reliable 3rd party source under WP:RS to include that especially when theres a WP:BLP concern. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 10:52, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Understood and happy to let other from the supporters club update.

What actually happened was the RFU recognised that the old amateurs were amalgamated into london Welsh- thus allowing us to be London Welsh. London Irish Amateurs (the wild geese) are a separate club as LI are of course their main side and are essentially London Irish. With us we are London Welsh and the RFU has recognised that - which can be seen and tracked on their website via results and tables etc.

How can we now rectify the main LW page to show that it certainly does still exist and also the ams page to show amalgamated into LW? It is difficult to cite as there are legal docs showing the holding of club IP and also re: RFU correspondence accepting LW as the LW to continue in the leagues, indeed similar situation and confirmation from the WRU in wales which we are also a member club of.

It needs to be updated as the current page is a mess, it says we are disbanded which aside from being wrong, then goes on to site the current chairman and various squad members like top points scorer (who weren't in the old pre 2017 squad) and in the articles also says post 2017 LW continued under sonny parker etc... very confusing and just inaccurate. Really looking for you help and guidance here as to how to rectify

The long shot would be just to start a new page from scratch as London Welsh RFC?

Jon Shankos14 (talk) 11:02, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid that's not how it works here. The page is based on what independent 3rd party sources tell us, written by people who do not have a close connection to the club. It cannot be just wiped and a new page created just because someone close to the club thinks it is wrong. Likewise, if someone from the supporters club did the edits, I am sorry but that is still a WP:COI. That being said, I have removed the incorrect info from the infobox. As I said, all the information about the club post 2017 should go on London Welsh Amateur. LWA were already in the leagues when LW got liquidated (as you know) and continued as normal from 2017, just adopting the LW name. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 11:37, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Understood and very disappointing I have to say- all that wiki has is its information and if that is wrong then that is misleading and inaccurate

You can imagine that for a club with a history dating back to 1885 to be published as disbanded that is concerning - in essence all that was disbanded was a holding company, of which there have been many since 1885 and especially since the mid 1990s in which time LW companies have actually gone into administration on 3 occasions!

I can see that there is nothing that you can do so will feed this back through - but also try to find others who have information that can support what I have been trying to explain and so that you can verify

All the best Shankos14 (talk) 11:56, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

I understand that. But from what the sources say (and you are free to check them out, they're listed at the bottom of the page) is that the team covered by LWRFC is the one that was founded in 1885 and has the lineage connected to the professional team. The LWA page covers the amateur team that was split off in the 90s as a separate club (according to the RFU) which now bears the London Welsh name. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 12:06, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

That probably the issue we need to resolve as when the RFU allowed London Welsh to rejoin the leagues at level 9 it was as a replacement of the old ams side not the actual old ams side - the proof of this being that the ams side then joined the merit leagues under the name for the ams team which is the druhids- the current Wiki site actually already references the ams as amateur

In essence what happened to LW is the same as Richmond and London Scottish both had in 1999 but yet their wiki pages reference this event and dont get denominated as a separate entity under a new account - I am sure that it is obvious that Richmod didnt die and end as a club that had been in place since 1861, just has LW has not ended - London Welsh using the name London Welsh (because it is london Welsh and owns that name) is the same as the name Richmond that they still use

In plain terms this puts us unfairly at as disadvantage in our main wiki page saying we are defunct whereas our close neighbours who both had the same issue do not? Shankos14 (talk) 12:29, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

For reference the richmond site https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_F.C.

Which itself has seemingly a lot of unreferenced statements about its history (but that is by the by amd not tasing as an issue at all) Shankos14 (talk) 12:31, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Looking to rescue this debacle - if we referenced all public documents that proved the LW is in fact one and the same and that LW as a trading name and legal entity has infact continued- can we then reestablish this as the main and correct current and ongoing wiki page for London Welsh ? All can be referenced from the companies house records, and the publications of the accounts by menzies accountants who were the liquidator for the old holdings company that went into liquidation - london Welsh RFC ltd and 1885 ltd ?

That would then show the true and fair position

I also understand what you are saying about me not being independent and potentially conflicted- but this is at is core looking to rectify a wrong, a fundamental factual error that really does prejudice us as a club and amounts in reality to defamation

Jon Shankos14 (talk) 12:42, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

As for Richmond, notwithstanding WP:WINARS, they didn't have an amateur arm operating in the lower leagues so literally did drop out and re-enter. As far as I can see what happened with LW was that LW was ejected from the Championship but the Amateur arm were allowed to continue in Herts/Middlesex due to their separate independent membership. I don't see it putting you at any disadvantage, what such disadvantage do you think it would? If you have that source that can be verified that both had the same holding company that got liquidated or otherwise, then that can be used providing it covers all the points in WP:RS. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 12:51, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

I wknt go into too much detail as to why we would be disadvantaged but in brief: a huge selling point of our club, much like richmond, is the huge heritage and history, which essentially wikipedia says has disbanded. In addition, part of our USP is the history and welsh heritage of the club, the trophies the players the members that the club still has (over 3000) and the members who played for the lions, Wales, England and many others and remain part of the club. Also, if you were to google LW to see what we are now doing and how we are working our way back up the leagues, wiki says we are no longer here, in very small italic writing it references and amatuer section that is easily missed and incorrect. If we were (which all huge clubs like us with ambition are foong) competing for players and supporters and you googled rugby in london or Richmond then you would think we were disbanded, where as Richmond and LS no such suggestion.

Also, you have referenced a holding company, so from a legal position this is it: LW trade mark, grounds, lease and name has ALWAYS been held but the LW Amatuer RFC ltd and the professional arm of the club (which was part of LW amatuer, which a holding co) was allowed to use the name, the ground etc. That entity going into liquidation impacts London Welsh as an entity not one bit. In fact London Welsh RFC ltd went in 2016 and 1885 Ltd took on the position in the league until April 2017- that change also making no difference to London Welsh as an entity and brand (and not being referenced on the current wiki site for completeness).

What I am saying is that wiki is just wrong factual and legally. The worry for us is that that is also to our detriment and offends our history and what we are currently doing at the club).

The above aside - I think that the position can be easily ressolved if I can show you that LW amateur owns the IP for London Welsh, tradded as LW and holds the LW name? That will of course take time to gather!

Jon Shankos14 (talk) 13:04, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

FYI we are used to this by the way as we have had to go through a process with Instagram and Twitter a a couple of years ago

So nothing personal:) Shankos14 (talk) 13:06, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Can you stick with this once we have gathered the information? Rather than having to start the conversation with someone else ? Thank you Shankos14 (talk) 13:34, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm happy to if you ping me like this @The C of E: (check edit view), I'll know its you. I think London Welsh having the historic connections and weight it does will not have much trouble (full disclosure: I am a member of a club in National 3 London & SE and would love London Welsh get promoted and play us the season after next). But I have to say I am concerned that if your sole rationale for this request is to attract players, I am afraid that's a violation of WP:SOAP. If you do have a source for it, then we can have a look at it as see what it says and amend accordingly. I may have to check with the chaps at WP:RU to see if its suitable but I am prepared to see what you have. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 14:35, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Great stuff and thank you - great to know you are involved in rugby not too far from us - that is essentially what it's all about :) Just to clarify - not to attract players at all, its just to make sure that people know that we are still here and that the club far from died and remains as was just in a different league - as it were.

Excellent and thank you for your help with this, all that we want is to make sure the reality is reflected and your help is really appreciated. As I say we did this with twitter, insta etc a couple of years ago, although they were easier. As a volunteer community club these things only get dealt with when time allows ( one of the benefits of the current horrific times).

Right not to take up too much of your time, I'll come back to you asap- as some of the docs are private can I send them to you on here that just comes to you?

Jon Shankos14 (talk) 15:08, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

There would need to be a way they can be verified independently by anybody as well as be cited as an authorative document or online source. So just sending it to me won't do much good. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 16:43, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Ok will see if I can get menzies the accountants to confirm inaccurate possibility a closing piece on the liquidation - via their website - they may not want to but ....leave with me Shankos14 (talk) 17:40, 12 April 2020 (UTC)