Saassoee
Welcome! edit
Hello, Saassoee, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:
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Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or , and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! JarrahTree 08:21, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
The titles and honorifics issue has been through many times... A single editor is not the determinator of the issue.
Leaving a message at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AnakPejuangIndonesia#Discussion_about_the_royal_family_of_Yogyakarta is not the way to determine what happens.
You need to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Royal_surnames very carfully, and realise this is an online encyclopedia - not a blog where you can make your respect to rulers in Java JarrahTree 08:25, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
@JarrahTree: Hi, thankyou for your welcome. I don't understand on what you said about a single editor is not the determinator of an issue, as I don't and have no intention of determining anything on my own. As you surely see, I sent a message to AnakPejuangIndonesia to discuss about proper styling of a reigning Indonesian king. so when you told me to read carefully about royal surnames, I'm confused. I'm not discussing surnames. I admit i edited some article before I noticed the note and I'm sorry for it. After seeing it, I would love to discuss about it.--Saassoee (talk) 08:45, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
quite a lot of people stopped editing on wikipedia when they could not add honorifics in front of some historical and religious leaders some years ago. We(the broader editing community) do not add honorifics due to WP:MOS issues. Current Indonesian rulers of traditional areas are rarely called kings by the way...
I am sorry I misunderstood what you are up to - I re-read your talk page item AnakPejuangIndonesia - it would be far more suitable to call a ruler of Yogyakarta 'sultan' than ' king' imho JarrahTree 09:42, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Yogyakarta Royal Family edit
Saassoee Selamat malam. Good evening. First of all, I should like to emphasise that I have a great deal of respect for Ngarso Dalem. However, I still think that the Sultan of Yogyakarta's proper style is Highness. I shall first respond to some of the points you raised, then put forward additional arguments in support of my position.
- You said that the Sultanate of Yogyakarta is not a princely state. But it was, in fact, a princely state: see Vorstenlanden.
- Furthermore, you seem to think that a "prince" is always below a "king". You should realise that 'prince' has a few meanings in English and other European languages:
- It can refer to junior members of a king's family, in which case a prince is indeed inferior to a king (i.e. Pangeran)
- But it is also a general term for any ruler or monarch (a prince can actually mean a Raja, Ratu, Maharajah, Prabu, Sunan, Sultan or Adipati or, indeed, many other titles). Hence, the traditional translation of 'Ratu Adil' is the 'Just Prince', not the 'Just King'. Another example suffices: at the funeral of Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother, her titles and honours were read out: "the late Most High, Most Mighty and Most Excellent Princess Elizabeth...." 'Princess' in this case does not mean 'Putri', that is daughter of a king: it means the consort of a monarch.
- The Sultan is not a reigning monarch of an independent monarchy. He is the reigning monarch of a special autonomous province within Indonesia. In Malaysia, the monarchs of the Malaysian states are styled 'Royal Highness', not Majesty. Most of these state monarchs are styled Sultans as well; except for the Raja of Perlis and the Yamtuan Besar of Negri Sembilan. Only the Yang Dipertuan Agong of the whole of Malaysia is given the prefix 'Majesty' and is customarily styled 'King of Malaysia' in English. As Yogyakarta is not an independent country, but part of the Republic of Indonesia, the Sultan should not be accorded the prefix 'Majesty' as that style should only be used by monarchs of independent monarchies. It is highly inappropriate to refer to the Sultan of Yogyakarta as King of Yogyakarta.
- Traditionally, the Sunan of Surakarta, the Sultan of Yogyakarta and the Princes Mangkunegara and Paku Alam are all styled 'Highness' in English. This style is used by most authors writing in English.
- Again, I should emphasise that international protocol now does not rank a King with the prefix of 'Majesty' above, say, a Grand Duke witht he prefix of 'Royal Highness' or a Prince with the prefix of 'Serene Highness'. Seniority is determined now by a monarch's date of accession, not title.
- This is - as you put it - about giving the Sultan and his family their proper 'dignity and honour'. I agree: Sultan Hamengkubuwono IX chose to join the Indonesian Republic, and accepted the fact that accession to Indonesia means that the Sultans of Yogyakarta would not be monarchs of an independent monarchy.
- I have reverted most of your edits on Majesty and Royal Highness. In addition, I have provided official Indonesian and Australian government publications that use 'Highness' instead of 'Majesty' when referring to the Sultan of Yogyakarta. Please do not change this again without a discussion and without proper citation of valid sources.
AnakPejuangIndonesia (talk) 16:17, 17 September 2018 (UTC)