User talk:S@bre/Archive 1

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Discussion archive Zeratul image Thanks for resolving Image:Zeratul.jpg no source conflict. I still confused with those tags and stuffs ;\ —comment added by DarthRahn(u/t\c) 17:43, 4-June, 2007 year (UTC). Zeratul - Reply I'm trying. AMiB is picky, and with the current revision, despite my initial anger, the page is much more well sourced and worded. I'm actually going to take a look at other character pages. Thanks. The Clawed One 19:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC) Give him a chance and he(amib) will go through all major scc chars, so we can updated all of them, at last ;\ —comment added by DarthRahn(u/t\c) 21:06, 5-June, 2007 year (UTC). Well at the moment I'm reorganising the Raynor article a bit, giving it a better structure and adapting the content slightly to merge the novel information in. It'll probably need cutting down some more, but what I'm doing is a start. -- S@bre 21:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC) The Zeratul article's main problem is lack of real-world info. Any and all articles discussing him would be appreciated. The Clawed One 22:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC) Terran Confederacy How did I force your hand? I just removed the Norad III bit. The Clawed One 19:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC) You didn't force my hand as such, I just used that as an expression. I just wasn't intending on adding full citations at that point. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. -- S@bre 19:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC) Ah, okay. No prob. I'm actually glad, the StarCraft articles as a whole need a lot of clean-up, and it's nice having another user working on them. The Clawed One 20:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC) I know. It just seems that for the bulk of it, someone just copied the naff StarCraft wikia stuff over to here, unfortunately bringing with it a large amount of speculation, messy structures and inaccuracies - primarily from the Maps of the Month, which simply can't be seen as proper canon, the information with the maps is simply done for a contextual basis, and a lot of it conflicts with the games and novels. -- S@bre 20:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC) Yeah. some of the pages have their facts straight, but are missing sources. The Protoss are a good example. The Clawed One 01:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC) Opinion As you are currently, along with myself, the most active StarCraft editor, I would like your opinion on this page before I put it into effect. The Clawed One 03:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC) Seems reasonable, those pages certainly need merging. I'd personally add more structure to the history side of things (much like the Terran Confederacy), and create a separate section dedicated to analysis of the government (again, much like the Terran Confederacy), as well as sections specifically aimed at the details and roles of the three castes, but still keeping the individual tribe descriptions separate. There's also one point I'd draw note to, that according to the manual the tribes only exist as a reminder of the mistakes of the past and the new institutions and castes control things, not the tribes. Also, another title would probably be better. Protoss Hierarchy isn't really appropriate considering this would be in the factions section, it would be a good subtitle for the section investigating the castes. I'll see if there is a more appropriate name, the Zealot refers to it as "the Empire", but I'll look for something more definitive that represents the order under the Khala as a whole. This also leaves a possibility for a dedicated Dark Templar article, considering they have a totally different structure to the Khala Protoss.-- S@bre 12:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC) Yeah, a while back every unit had a page, then they all got redirected to the species main page. But some, like the Ghost and the DT, are plot-vital components and still have enough data to warrant a seperate page. Thanks for the input. As this is a test, page, feel free to edit it. I don't mind. The Clawed One 16:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC) I wasn't really referring to the Dark Templar as a unit, but as a faction. Their details as a unit are utterly irrelevant, but its probably possible to infer a heck of a lot about their society. The Ghost, if it should ever be needed, should probably go in Terran section of the psionic technology page -- S@bre 16:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC) Agreed on both counts. The only problem is that the Dark Templar society is largely a mystery. I';m not sure if reliable sources would be forthcoking. The Clawed One 16:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC) I've updated the page. Unless you haveany edits to make to it, I'll recreate it for real some time tomorrow. The Clawed One 05:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC) I've got some edits, but I've not really had the time to do it lately. I'll see if I can't get the time to do so today. If not, well, I can always edit once it's up. -- S@bre 12:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC) Okay. The page has been created under the name "Protoss Empire". Some speedy searches revealed some more real-life inspirations for the ranks, etc, but I'm sure there's more to be added with in-depth research. The Dark Templar's rebellion probably has some real-life analogy, but for now, it's something. The Clawed One 05:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC) Terran Dominion As you were responsible for the mass clean-up of the Terran Confederacy you might be interested to know I've started a clean-up of the Terran Dominion, including moving it from its original title as the Sons of Korhal. Any additional data you have would be appreciated, especially from the novels - the government and structure of the Dominion, moreso than the UED and Confederacy, are not specified in-game and thus are a mystery to me. The Clawed One 20:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC) I'll look into it. I'll finish off my edits to Protoss Empire and then investigate it. -- S@bre 10:23, 29 June 2007 (UTC) Thanks. I'm also looking at several other pages, largely the Zerg. The Protoss and Terran pages are alright, if not perfect. But the Zerg, I have to look at, along with the pirate militia page. The Clawed One 02:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC) User :68.230.221.253 I know his edits are all made in good faith, but it's seriously begun to get annoying. I don't want to request administrator intervention on good faith edits, but on the other hand it's tiring to keep removing the redundant rank and color changes. Any ideas? The Clawed One 00:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC) Keep the ranks (my refining of the profiles means that the ranks are better in the profile name rather than in the position), but just revert the colour ones. Hopefully he'll take the hint to keep it as the generally accepted colours. Other than that there's not much more we can do. -- S@bre 10:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC) Okay. As for the info boxes, sorry, but I have no clue how to create them. The Clawed One 15:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC) Template for SC Dunno if it's the template, but there's now an ugly empty area at the top of the Confederacy's page. The Clawed One 17:40, 2 July 2007 (UTC) It is, it seems to be caused by the optional parts of the box, but I can't work out why. It's practically the same as the Character one. -- S@bre 18:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC) Year With regards to your edit on the 24th Century, SC actually takes place in the 26th century. Although finding a precise date is quite difficult, the "Boot Camp" tutorial of the first game gives the date "2499". The Clawed One 20:57, 2 July 2007 (UTC) Really? That doesn't add up... I sat there with Calculator up and added the years together as they mentioned them in the manual: UPL formed in 2229 UPL achieve space travel in 2269 (40 years on) Arrival of Terrans in Koprulu in 2297 (28 years later) Terran colonies reunite in 2357, Confederacy and Kel-Morian Combined formed, start of Guild Wars (60 years on) Guild Wars ends in 2361, Umojan Protectorate formed (4 years on) I seem to have miscounted at this point, should be 2363 for fall of Confederacy, giving two years for Mengsk & Son Inc. However, this does follow the assumption that ATLAS followed quickly after the discovery of space travel in 2269, that the Guild Wars were quickly after the Confederates formation and that the Korhal stuff didn't take longer. I'll look into it, I remember something along those lines now you mention it, also including a time in reference to the Guild Wars. If I can get that, I can work the rest out by working backward. -- S@bre 21:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC) Oh, don't think I didn't make a timeline like that myself. UPL comes around in the 23rd century, the Confederacy forms around a century later, still a big 200 year gap. I know, I know, I consider it one of SC's major plotholes. The Clawed One 21:18, 2 July 2007 (UTC) Protoss Empire Surprise surprise, AMiB blanked the page. too long, in-universe, redudant, etc. I rv'd it and will tell him to give us a chance to clean it up. He's responded with his usual templates. The Clawed One 00:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Oh wait, better yet, he nominated it for deletion! Now I remember how he once made me consider closing my account. The Clawed One 01:36, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Nevermind, forget it. It seems that the structure of the new factions pages in general sucks. So much for those ideas. The Clawed One 01:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC) This could help. We've tried the other options already, but it hasn't helped. It's about time we took a stand against his constant need for perfection straight up without any consideration for the hard work put into the articles or understanding that it is a slow process. -- S@bre 12:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Oh, if there were a way to get him off our backs, I'd email myself to use and hug you. There is currently nothing on Wikipedia I'd like more than AMIB to shut up and give so many pages a chance. Just tell me what you would need and I will certainly do it. But in dealing with him directly, don't hold your breath. Just look his edit history - templates and content removal are his favorite edits. The Clawed One 16:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Oh, and with response to what you said on his talk page,I agree that he nominates the Empire for deletion but the the 2-dozen articles the faction section used to be, he never did. Maybe we should show him the archives versions of the Protoss Conclave, Sons of Korhal, and Kel-Morian Combine. See if he understands what we were doing was in the best interest of the articles. The Clawed One 16:19, 3 July 2007 (UTC) As far back as his edit history goes, he doesn't appeared to have properly contributed positively to an article, it makes me think he doesn't even know the time and effort required to do a decent article. I'm going to look into this method for arbitration more closely, I see it requires we try some other things first - for instance, we could try to get hold of other admins (how did he become an admin with his attitude?) for objective opinions. However, I do suggest that we either get the articles back up as soon as possible or at least back them up in case AMiB decides to get trigger-happy with the delete button and we lose the pages - and thereby the backlog of edits - entirely and have to start from scratch. I am tempted to go to the SC wikia, but its not the same. This place is supposed to be respectable and has a lot more coverage, whereas the SC wikia is essentially a fansite. I don't want to work on a fansite. Besides, most of the stuff we've been improving is was directly copied from there, and it doesn't say much for the quality of the site. I think that showing what the old horribly written entirely in-universe (at least we're trying to bring it out of in-universe) articles may help him understand. Showing him that page of Wikipedia policy on consensus amongst editors may also help, he has no right to arbitrarily start deleting or redirecting pages with no discussion what-so-ever. -- S@bre 16:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Sandboxes seem like a good idea. Although I did it all to just shut him up, I really do hate myself now for removing so much hard work and want the pages back. The Clawed One 16:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC) AMiB is a lot of things, but polite and willing to discuss large changes before making them are not two of them. The problem is he's the only administrator I know of, so whenever I need assistance with something that requires admin input, it usually does more harm than good. The Clawed One 16:53, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Creating the character sandboxes now. The Clawed One 17:25, 3 July 2007 (UTC) And as a note, seeing how the initial pages for them were small, what about merging the location articles into List of planets in StarCraft? The Clawed One 17:37, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Sure. I'll deal with that. -- S@bre 17:38, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Cool. Also, as Tychus Findlay will be important but currently has nothing but his criminal record to write about, I'm gonna add him back to the minor character page. And, I saw AMIB's talk page, about how you threw WP:CON in his face. Good job on that. The Clawed One 17:49, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Oh, I noticed on the page that you list the symbol shown as the Protoss insignia. Actually, it's just the symbol for the Akilae (Teal) tribe. The faction pages on this site have some good images you may be interested in. Also, I think Kerrigan will be the defining example for the other pages. Thus far I've found three independent sources ranking her as one of the top women in video games, and I'm sure I can find more as time goes on. The Clawed One 05:02, 5 July 2007 (UTC) I'm also wondering if we can find enough to warrant an "inspirations" section for her. Medusa was obvious an influence on her appearance, but if that's the only example, it's not worth noting. The Clawed One 05:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC) Artwork for Stukov I know there's an official site for Samwise, the Blizzard artist, and there's a picture I've seen by him for Infested Stukov - at the bottom of this page, you can see it. If you can find the official site where it is shown and upload it, I think it would be a good image for the revised Stukov article. The Clawed One 01:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC) I know the image you refer to, I can find it. In the meantime, I'm going to let all the images referred to below be deleted: I've saved them and can upload them again when needed. -- S@bre 09:53, 4 July 2007 (UTC) Okay, thanks. Otherwise the article is coming nicely, as little in-universe info as possible while still explaining the plot-vital events, sources, and what is written in-universe is written in an out-of-universe perspective. The only thing I'm unsure of is the Game Unit section being perceived as a game guide. The Clawed One 10:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC) As AMIB said, we do need to dig up some specific out of universe information, see if you can't find anything relating to Stukov's character's conception. Try around the Blizzard site and respectable associated sites like BlizzPlanet. That SC Evolution site might have something hanging about. The plot stuff could be cut down a little, it's probably still a bit too specific. I know they aren't in the same league, but look at how much (for "much" read "little") I've given for plot in User:S@bre/List of planets in the StarCraft series#Aiur, one-and-a-bit paragraphs. I'd recommend getting the Brood War appearance down to two paragraphs at most, skipping over vague bits such as the Korhal invasion bit (ie replacing it with something like "Later in Episode V it is revealed that Stukov had moved the psi disruptor to Braxis". Likewise, make the intro less in-universe. I think it falls into that bit where it proceeds to unintentionally describe the character as real even though it is mentioned that it is fictional. Look at my User:S@bre/United Earth Directorate (StarCraft) test page and WP:WAF#Examples to see quite what I mean. Sorry if I'm sounding a bit over-critical on this though. You aren't planning on using the infested Stukov image for the profile are you? The cinematic one is much better for the profile, although the infested one is certainly worth including. And one other thing I just found intriguing is this: Noonien Soong. This article is described on WP:FICTION#Examples as a "Good and Featurable" "high quality article" for "a minor - but still notable - character... who has sufficient depth to sustain an article" despite having nothing on conception and design and the other bits AMIB demands, merely an entirely out-of-universe writing style for the character. -- S@bre 12:09, 4 July 2007 (UTC) Hm...interesting. But to be perfectly honest, I don't want to discuss him anymore, he's got a big ego and refuses to listen to any opinions that oppose his own, and once he gets buearacracy (which, judging by the votes so far, he will), he'll only get worse. Oh no, the Infested Stukov image was gonna go in the revival section. As for the other stuff, will do. The Clawed One 12:33, 4 July 2007 (UTC) Just looked over the other articles WP:Fiction gives. Most of them are just like the other pages AMIB was against - written in-universe in an out-of-universe perspective. Anakin Skywalker is just a history of the character's appearance in the films with little to no out-of-universe info, List of Mavericks is just a list of game bosses with a brief description of each. But I know that, should we use this for defense, AMIB will find a way to discredit it. He always does. The Clawed One 12:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC) I wouldn't use it until we get this all back up on the main area and if AMIB objects (we've been at him enough for the time being). He can't really object though, that is an official policy page and it is very clear what it wants with those examples. -- S@bre 12:43, 4 July 2007 (UTC) The image you want is here. I think "non-free 2d art" is the most applicable licensing. -- S@bre 14:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC) Thanks, but I have no clue how to upload images. I was wondering if you could. As for your character idea, I was pondering a "Major Character" page myself. Aldaris and Duke, like you implied, are important, but not important enough to have their own page, really. I'll look into that soon. The Clawed One 16:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC) AMIB The word wars continue. Surprise surprise, he denies your claim of his ignoring the consensus rule, and also claims that if we thought the Empire page had potential to have out-of-universe content, we should have said so. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did we not say so, and he say that there wasn't any potential for such content...*looks at his talk page*...yeah, that did happen. I've enver seen someone contradict themselves so much in just two days. The Clawed One 03:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC) re:StarCraft The best way to handle with location articles is to create a general setting article, such as World of StarCraft or StarCraft setting; something like World of Final Fantasy VIII. This is your best option at getting the best out-of-universe perspective possible. Each planet may not have a section, but they can be mentioned as examples or described and whatnot. — Deckiller 20:00, 4 July 2007 (UTC) That format looks pretty good. Or perhaps something like: Intro Concept and creation Nations and races Key locations (or a general history section) Recpetion and criticism I think it all depends on how much in-universe has to be covered versus how much real-world info is available. — Deckiller 02:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC) Reverts Many users keep restoring the character pages, and I'm not sure what to do about them. The Clawed One 17:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC) Try putting up a hidden comment above the redirect on the page (formatting button fourth from the right), so they will see when they go to the "diff" page to revert. Failing that, don't bother. The articles will be overwritten with the newer out-of-universe ones when we're done anyway. -- S@bre 17:29, 5 July 2007 (UTC) Ok. I'm going to do a final sweep around the net for sources on them, but with Raynor, Kerrigan and Zeratul, I plan to put their articles back up sometimes this weekend. Check. I keep adding the minor edits you mentioned to show it is a game, but as for the shroten summaries, I'm not sure how to do that without cutting out vital details to the character. Zeratul, Raynor and Kerrigan have about 3 paragraphs per game, which I think is as low as I can go without compromising the data (but feel free to edit them yourself). And I do agree with you on Deckiller. He seems much more reasonable than AMIB. The Clawed One 20:16, 5 July 2007 (UTC) Nova You're gonna have to be the one to write her article. I unfortunately have not read any SC novel except for Firstborn, and as I understand it, Nova's story is told in her novel, which you seem to have a respectable knowledge of. The Clawed One 04:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC) Also, Robert Clotworthy has said that Raynor's concept art played a factor in his characterization, so I think the picture on Blizzplanet's interview with him [1] would be a good one to use in the article. The Clawed One 04:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC) I'll hold back images for uploading until we're closer to uploading the pages. There's issues with non-free images on user pages, I don't want to exacerbate any problems by uploading more in addition to the ones I'm currently retaining. I'm for doing Nova's section though. I'm going to throw together a draft of the character overview page, Nova is currently not significant enough to warrant a full article. Anyway, I'll make a note of the images you want uploaded for the character articles: Dead Stukov (Samwise) Easy Rider (Metzen) -- S@bre 20:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC) Okay. Raynor and Kerrigan now have a couple paragraphs on their character that can be expanded as more sources are found. Also, I've started the Major character article if you would like to take a look. For the time, I think the Minor and Major character articles should be separate, unless you plan on drastically decreasing the size of the original Minor article. The Clawed One 21:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC) Xel'Naga I've been doing some pondering about them. I do think they are important enough to warrant their own article, but as there is not enough information for that, I'm wondering if they should be listed on the Major Characters page. The Clawed One 05:05, 7 July 2007 (UTC) Thats a hard one, they don't fit into characters but there isn't much information available. I'll need to think over that one. -- S@bre 12:31, 7 July 2007 (UTC) Sweeeet. It's all coming together now. I like the format of the character article you've done, very nice. If we can make all the articles as good as these ones are becoming, then we should have no worries. The Clawed One 16:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC) Overmind I'm wondering how we should treat the second Overmind in the article. It's an Overmind, but not the Overmind. This is what I'm thinking for info on the second: A major plot point in Brood War is the formation of a second Overmind from the union of several Cerebrates. However, this incarnation of the Overmind never reaches full maturity. It is not sapient, does not have the same powers or intelligence as the original, and has much weaker defenses; attacks that were superficial to the first Overmind sent the second into remission, although it still took Dark Templar energy to be fully killed. It is enslaved by the United Earth Directorate and used to control the Zerg, but was eventually killed by Zeratul. Although this Overmind was the same type of creature as the original, it was not the same character. Such a paragraph makes the differences between the two Overminds clear, which is really, to put it bluntly, a big deal when looking at the character. The Clawed One 17:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC) Also, I'm not sure about that image you uploaded for Tassadar. It shows his eyes as yellow when they are usually blue. The Clawed One 17:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC) That seems good. It is a major distinction, but there's no other way I can think of that we can do it. I'd also edit that so it says that Zeratul killed the Overmind rather than Kerrigan, it can be made clear in Zeratul's article that this was done under suffrance. And I made the eyes yellow for consistency - all Protoss should have yellow eyes, including Tassadar in the final cinematic. It's only once he starts the do-it-yourself-Archon-kit in that cutscene does his eyes change. I simply used the texturing of the eyes from that cinematic to recolour the portrait eyes. However, do you think I should revert it? I only did it as a test. -- S@bre 17:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC) Well, while I do remember the yellow eyes in the cinematic. I think we should stay true to his original appearance. I'm also wondering now, as you indirectly pointed out he's the only Protoss with blue eyes, if there's something to that we can note. Maybe some research on the symbolism on blue eyes will turn up something we can use. The Clawed One 17:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC) We could try, but I don't think it's anything other than a design overlook. It's worth noting in his main article though. -- S@bre 17:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC) Good plan. One way or the other it's a major change in the typical Protoss' appearances, so it should be noted. And just as a laugh, I like the "do-it-yourself-Archon" comment. The Clawed One 17:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC) Can we quote it as a secondary source? :) -- S@bre 17:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC) Lol. Seriously though, that is something else that should be noted along with the eyes - at the time of Brood War, he was the only Templar capable of harnessing both Light and Dark psionic energy, something that was thought impossible. Along with the eye color and the "En Taro Tassadar" legacy, that's a separate paragraph in itself. Well, if note is going to be drawn to it, I'll revert the image so people can see what we mean. I don't think my edit to the image was that good anyway. Duran I'm concerned about him. Clearly he's going to be a pivotal character, that can't be disputed. However, given the very little data we have about him, in-universe AND out-of-universe, I don't think we have enough for a full article on him yet, and should group him with Aldaris and DuGalle. As for Artanis, same deal. Both are important and will probably warrant their own articles once their roles are expanded in future novels and games, but for now there's just not enough data. Duran in particular is a problem, as pretty much everything about his character is either secret, a lie or a half-truth, so writing a fact-accurate article will be difficult. The Clawed One 18:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC) Just because they're primary characters doesn't mean they have to have an article. We can have characters in the primary character section without having articles. The fact we can't dig up the information doesn't mean we should move them. We just shove in a paragraph or two in the same style as the others. Look at the Characters of Final Fantasy VIII article I'm getting this all from, they are all key characters but only ones with the information available have a full article. -- Sabre 20:03, 9 July 2007 (UTC) That's what I did, yeah. The Clawed One 21:12, 9 July 2007 (UTC) Also, although it is a fact there's lots of theories on Duran with the most common being his a Xel'Naga, I think we need a source for that. The Clawed One 04:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC) Character Page/Merchandise These might prove useful. The Clawed One 21:47, 9 July 2007 (UTC) http://www.armchairempire.com/action-figures/tassadar.htm http://www.popcultureshock.com/reviews.php?id=2785 Image No problem, I'd imagine this is damn annoying. The Clawed One 13:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC) Re: SC universe Yeah, it's just a rehash of data from other, more appropriate articles. The Clawed One 16:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC) Re: Raynor I'll take a look at the character page now. As for Raynor, it looks awesome. Shall I move it to the mainspace? The Clawed One 16:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC) Character Page I'm looking at the character page, and I had a thought. Seeing as how DuGalle was based on this "Lester", perhaps we can find a screenshot to show the resemblance? The Clawed One 16:49, 18 July 2007 (UTC) I'll whip one up. -- Sabre 16:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC) Re:Rewrites That sounds good, but the description of them in gameplay may be considered a game guide. As for Tassadar, I actually haven't worked on him much, but I'll see what I can find on him. The Clawed One 16:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC) Agreed. We should find more sources, but it's just a matter of time and people before we find them. AMIB seems to want immediate perfection, and I'll say it, I find him downright unreasonable and stubborn. Any further discussion on the article will have to be between you and him, because I've slung too many words with him and I don't have the energy or the will to debate with him anymore. And Kerrigan and Zeratul have the same problems he's found, so I don't know what to do about them and after so much time working on them for what seems to be so little improvement, I'm honestly not sure if I care either. If you want to add them back to the mainspace, go ahead. I fear I have to step back from this. I have no desire to get into another debate that cannot be won. The Clawed One 22:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC) I'm gonna implement the final four character pages I have. Good luck finishing the rest of the work. You want my help, feel free to ask. The Clawed One 00:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC) AMIB may be pessimistic, but he's right, and he has the policies on his side. Like I said, if so much work on the articles yields so little improvement, then what are we supposed to do? The Clawed One 14:17, 26 July 2007 (UTC) I'll take a look at the minor characters page, but at the rate this is going, Zeratul, Kerrigan and Raynor won't have their own pages anyway, so I'm gonna leave the other page alone. The Clawed One 17:11, 30 July 2007 (UTC) Capital ships The capitol ship page is a good idea, but the Norad II and the Norad III can probably fill the same section, and the Danimoth is not entirely notable. You may also wish to mention the presence of the Tempest and the Warp Ray in StarCraftII that function as flagship vessels. The Clawed One 22:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC) Including Norad II and Norad III in the same section is to me like combining Enterprise with Enterprise-A (on a much smaller scale though), the two are different ships, even if Queen of Blades states that the Norad III is a refitted Norad II to the extent that it might as well be a new ship. Danimoth is included simply to flesh it out for the moment, there aren't many named ships, but I don't want to shove in unnamed ships like "Magellan" and "Andraxxus' Command Ship". And what's the Tempest? -- Sabre 12:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC) Check Starcraft2.com. The Tempest is a Carrier that has been retrofitted with DT technology. It looks just like it sounds - a Dark Carrier. Instead of Interceptors, it uses automated Shurikens to attack. It's the new Carrier, simply put. As for thr Norad bit, they are different, but we'll have to see how much data the individual headings have before we decide if they should be merged. The Clawed One 17:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC) Ah, here you go, the Tempest. [2] The Clawed One 17:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC) Intriguing, but I think it's best to let SC Wiki deal with classes of capital ships (ie, the unit details), we should just deal with named ships. I have no doubt a number of new named ships in the new classes will come with SC2, we can just add them when needed, and we can shove the individual units at SC wiki in the external links. -- Sabre 10:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC) Character Reception At the moment I have nothing for that. Also, with Blizzcon going on, I staff an SC site and will likely be busy posting data on my site for the next couple days. Sorry. The Clawed One 18:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC) StarCraft articles Hey. How are the StarCraft articles going? I've been away for a few weeks, so I haven't had too much time to keep track. — Deckiller 11:53, 4 August 2007 (UTC) It seems that those articles might have to be merged, if possible. A good merge won't ruin the presentation of the material, and will only strengthen the cast of characters article's chances of reaching GA/FA status. — Deckiller 20:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC) In that case, the best option is to just write a paragraph summarizing the creation of those two characters. — Deckiller 20:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC) It looks pretty good on the whole; it might need some trimming in some areas. I take it you've scraped the bottom of the barrel in terms of real-world information? — Deckiller 20:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC) I think the minor characters list should be merged; very little real-world info is available. — Deckiller 20:51, 6 August 2007 (UTC) Perhaps the novels characters are unnecessary, and can be mentioned in the articles on the novels? That'll reduce the size drastically. — Deckiller 21:02, 6 August 2007 (UTC) Re: Valerian Unfortunately I'm not at Blizzcon myself, but I'm a staff member of SCL, and I know for a fact two or three other staff members are there. Ergo, I don't have anything now besides "he'll be in it", but if something turns up, I'll be sure to find out and let you know. I'm also thinking Jake Ramsey needs to be added too, maybe share a profile with Zamara until we find out more about her. The Clawed One 16:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC) Yeah, from what I've heard it sounded nothing like the old Raynor. But I have no info on who it is otherwise. I'm adding Jake to the minor characters now. The Clawed One 16:24, 4 August 2007 (UTC) The head of my site just got back to me on some data. He says the casting for Raynor isn't done yet, but Tychus has his official voice. So I'm assuming that Raynor's voice in the trailer was a place-holder. The Clawed One 17:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC) BTW, with regards to Valerian, you may be interested in this picture taken from Blizzcon. Concept art for SCII of Valerian Mengsk. The Clawed One 17:32, 5 August 2007 (UTC) http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1014/1005519720_272e96897b.jpg?v=0 Unfortunately for the Mengsk-Leviathan bit, no. I cannot recall where I originally heard it, but have since seen it in several places. I'll sweep the net and see what I can dig up. I do have the "lost" mission which shows a normal Battlecruiser speaking Mengsk's lines, but since we can't source that, I'll look around. The Clawed One 19:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC) Currently, this page notes the Leviathan, but no source for it, other than the supposed "Emerald Patch". The Clawed One 19:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC) Capitol Ships You will want to take a look at my recent edit. If you feel that it's too much, however, I understand. The Clawed One 14:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC) Okay, sorry about that. I'll see what I can do about the character creation. The Clawed One 15:18, 6 August 2007 (UTC) While reception seems relatively common, creation, I'm drawing a blank on. Currently, I couldn't find any third party sources, so I'll check the official sites. The Clawed One 15:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC) Made another attempt at the article, let me know whatcha think. Also, are we merging the Raynor-Kerry-Zerry articles into the large character article after all? The Clawed One 01:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC) Re:Character Pages Doubtful, the dialogue for the missions has been around for as long as I can remember, which is years. I don't think they'll be going anywhere. The Clawed One 00:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC) Also, I created the SC2 section on Raynor's article and moved relevant information there. You may wish to take a look. The Clawed One 00:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC) NP. Also, in the future. The Clawed One 15:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC) Wikipedia:Articles for deletion#How to list pages for deletion Hm, interesting. I was running around the obsolete SC stuff and found this. StarCraft: Revelations. Any potential or should it be AFD'd as well? The Clawed One 16:07, 9 August 2007 (UTC) re:WP:FICT The new guideline allows that, as long as the split article maintains notability and encyclopedic treatment by containing significant out-of-universe information. Otherwise, the characters have to be trimmed to prevent an overbalance of plot summary. — Deckiller 11:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC) With Characters of Final Fantasy VIII, describing Squall Leonhart and Rinoa Heartilly with real-world information (to show notability) caused the character page to become long, so they were split. But the split articles maintained notability (with development/merchandise/criticism information). Having two separate character cast articles is fine as long as each contains real-world info to balance things out (otherwise, people would game the system and create many lists for each topic within a fictional universe). For StarCraft, that might be difficult, so you might have to try and trim. It's not as hard as you think, actually; I can give you a hand :) — Deckiller 11:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC) Removing the infoboxes shaved 5 KB. I worked with compressing the Adun section into one paragraph, and I'm sure there can be more done; however, I've played very little StarCraft, so it was only an example. The key is also to perfect the order so that you don't have to repeat events or definitions. Perhaps organizing the characters page into each faction (protoss, zerg, etc) will help with trimming. — Deckiller 11:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC) Another option is to have character lists inside each faction. Have a section on characters in the Protoss article, Terran article, etc. There are many ways to play around with it so that an overview of the universe is provided with balanced encyclopedia coverage. — Deckiller 11:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC) New Source Transcript of a Q&A from Blizzcon, with lots of info to be had. Use what you can, there's lots that it discusses - the novels, SC2, SC, etc. The Clawed One 03:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC) http://www.sclegacy.com/editorials/sciilore.php I'll take a sweep over the above article and report anything I noticed. Good job, man. Check on the template, although we may want to reconsider once we re-introduce the Minor character page into it. That's what I was thinking. Also, here's the stuff I have from the SCL article. I'm also gonna talk to LoA who runs the site and make sure the mission transcripts you're sourcing stay intact. The Clawed One 16:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC) - Firstborn will tie directly into StarCraft II and the novels are almost being developed alongside the game. This is the first novel to be written in such a way. - StarCraft: Ghost may be adapted into further novels or even comics, as Blizzard has great interest in continuing the story. Spectres, Terrazine gas and Nova, all major plot points in Ghost, may appear in StarCraft II. - Valerian Mengsk will not challenge his father for power but instead work on establishing his own presence in the Dominion. - Raynor's character in SCII is supposed to be based on a film called "Rush", as a sort of gritty, undercover cop. The fact that he's an ordinary guy and has met some of the most influential (for better or worse) people in the galaxy is what Metzen finds so appealing about him. - Protoss are still not unified, and led by Artanis with the rank of Hierarch. Also, Metzen refers to Tassadar as the "Twilight Messiah". Not sure how relevant that is, although if the term makes it into SCII we should note it. - Zeratul, troubled after all the events of Brood War, travels the galaxy looking for answers. He finds them, but the answers he finds "really trip him out". Metzen also admits a parallel between him and Medivh in WarCraft, admitting he's a "one-trick pony". A nice character note. - They mention how they came up with the title "Queen of Blades" for Kerrigan. - Metzen almost seems to regret Resurrection IV and Stukov's revival in the Q&A part. Quote: "Why oh why did we think that was cool *hangs head*". This may impact Stukov's role. - All the Xel'Naga temples (Nemaka, Behkar'Ro, Shakuras) serve different purposes, and are all connected but Blizzard cannot yet tell us how. Check on the nomination, no problem. Also, with Raynor, Zeratul and Kerrigan, several small edits to add in the data from SCL have been made. Mostly just character and development notes, but then, that's what we need. The Clawed One 13:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC) re:Userpage User:Sango123 designed most of my userpage, but feel free to copy and paste the code and play around with it. — Deckiller 01:26, 18 August 2007 (UTC) Are you happy with the current design or would you like some tweaks/suggestions? — Deckiller 22:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC) I'll see if I can free up some time to work on it. However, I've been swamped with requests lately, including requests from musicians (dead serious). — Deckiller 14:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC) Re: User: 220... Agreed. Hopefully he won't, but I'll keep an eye on him. The Clawed One 15:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC) Also, I was wondering if you could take a look at Kerrigan's article. It needs more sourcing, and also somehow lost its picture. I did a little work on the location article. I'll do some more tomorrow. The Clawed One 05:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC) Re: GA status and Wikiprojects Sorry for my late response. Generally, pages that meet the GA level meet the GA criteria in all wikiprojects, as having two distinct criteria would be rather strange... I generally don't update wikiproject ratings for projects I'm not involved in (well, I sorta am, but mostly spend time outside of the general VGames project.) Happy editing, David Fuchs (talk) 18:40, 19 August 2007 (UTC) Interesting Template This might come in handy for some StarCraft pages. {{ Underconstruction }} Zeratul and Duke's VAs Currently, Duke is listed as being voiced by Chris Metzen, and Zeratul by James Harper. However, I think we need to do more research on that, as in the SCL Lore Pnael video, Metzen directly says that Zeratul and Duke was voiced by "Jack Ritschel". As well, the current sources for the voices source IMDB, which isn't totally reliable because the data there is user submitted. I think we should find more sources on the VAs and make sure the currently listings are correct. The Clawed One 20:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC) Another picture...hm...well, I haven't looked at that Adobe file with all the concept art in a while, but a Zerg pic would be nice. The Clawed One 15:29, 25 August 2007 (UTC)