Olz2110

Germany in World War II

Hi, contrary to what you're adding to articles about several German cities, the WW2 air raids weren't punishment for German war crimes. Instead, it was general war tactics in order to decrease German (arms) production and morale. See also Strategic bombing during World War II. Markussep ^Talk 11:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Cologne

I'm definitely not denying what happened in and before World War 2, let's be very clear about that. Adding exaggerated statements and removing referenced facts will not help your murdered relatives, or anybody. The support for NSDAP was substantially lower in the Rhineland than in the rest of Germany, see the ref I added, and these maps. The bombing of Cologne, or any other German city, was not puinishment or revenge for German war crimes. Show me a reliable source that claims otherwise. And contrary to what you wrote, this (probably) antisemitic caricature hasn't been there since the 1980s. I'm not saying that there's no antisemitism or xenophoby in Germany, but it's definitely not as wide-spread or violent as in the 1930s. Markussep ^Talk 11:50, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Reletavism and Revisionism

Your answer is typical for many Germans- you CAN NOT and SHOULD NOT make a comparesance between the victims of German NSDAP and between victims of the Allied forces who fought against the most horrific regime in world's history. Currently (and Shamefully) that's just what articles on Cologne and other so called history articles in the English Wikipedia are doing. Know this bombings did not come for no reason (this is what your version suggests) they were a result of German atrocities during WWII- this is a fact. Allied forces were not belligerent against a innocent German population- this is also a fact. The occurrences during WWII should not be depicted out of context- this is (and I do not say that your motives are sinister) not different then holocaust denial (remind me how German Law regards holocaust denial and why ???).

Dear Sir I am not blaming you for past crimes but it is a crime to deny the largest Genocide in history. I will not supply facts - the facts are scattered all over Europe in KZs and mass graves. As for the Klagemauer- the name itself is a disgrace (you probably didn't know that) it's a cynical antisemite use of one of the holiest Jewish places, in order to attack Jews.I've Been to Koeln several times and was ashamed for people like you who for 2 decades (like the situation during WWII) chose to turn their look from this disgrace- the so called - Klagemauer. In sum, I don't know how old you are but know that- After Auschwitz no antisemitism (what ever you like to call it)in Germany should be forgiven. Please check articles on- WWII, Holocaust, European Jews and shame- for more facts.

Our dispute here is not about Holocaust denial. My opinion about this subject is irrelevant for the article about Cologne, and so is yours. What is our dispute about (judging from the diff between our versions):

1. was support for NSDAP in Cologne lower than the German average, and is that relevant in this article?
2. was the synagogue in the Roonstraße rebuilt, and is that relevant in this article?
3. should there be a picture of the bomb damage in Cologne in the article?
4. was the bombing of Cologne due to war crimes by Germans?
5. is antisemitism on the rise in Cologne since the 1980s?
6. since when were caricatures of Jews on display at the Dom square, and are they still there?
7. are there protests every Sunday, and is the existence of Israel protested regularly?
8. is Israel a synonym of the Jewish people?
9. is the exhibition supported by leading public officials?

About 1: yes it was lower (see refs), whether it's relevant is debatable. About 2: yes it was rebuilt, and I think it's relevant. About 3: since this is an important part of the history of Cologne, I think it should be there. About 4: WW2 started because of Germany's invasion of Poland, not because of atrocities against Jews. German cities were already bombed long before the concentration camps became known to the Allies (June or December 1942). Quote from the article Strategic bombing during World War II: Military and industrial installations were targeted, but so were cities and civilian populations. Targeting cities and civilians was viewed as a psychological weapon to break the enemy's will to fight. About 5: maybe, there should be references about that. About 6: you say 1980s, the Kölner Stadtanzeiger says January 2010. You say they're still there (is on display), the KS says they were removed. About 7: I don't believe this is true, do you have references? About 8: I don't think so. Israel is a state, and a state is not a people. There are Jews outside Israel, and there are non-Jewish Israelis. About 9: I don't think they actually supported it, maybe they were slow in their response to it. Do you have references of support? Markussep ^Talk 18:54, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I do not accept the framing of the matter made by you but will use it with additional remarks: was support for NSDAP in Cologne lower than the German average, and is that relevant in this article? While out of general context this is irrelevant (you can write an article about this subject)

1. was the synagogue in the Roonstraße rebuilt, and is that relevant in this article?

Indeed been there the Synagogue was rebuilt but when? After the war!!! In your version it sounds like the GESTAPO or the SS rebuilt it.

1. should there be a picture of the bomb damage in Cologne in the article?

What ever- put what ever pics. You like.

1. was the bombing of Cologne due to war crimes by Germans?

Dear Sir, this is one of the reasons for bombing let’s be accurate (you can add what ever reason you like but please do not let it look like a whim of the German-Hating allies).

1. is antisemitism on the rise in Cologne since the 1980s?

As a Jew visiting the Dom Platte in number of occasion – I must tell you it is.

1. since when were caricatures of Jews on display at the Dom square, and are they still there?

1980’s, not only caricatures but also fabricated pictures and hate posters, saw them with my own eyes.

1. are there protests every Sunday, and is the existence of Israel protested regularly?

See my latter answer.

1. is Israel a synonym of the Jewish people?

You know what go check what your saying. Israel was and is a synonym for the Jewish people (Like Juda) this is of common knowledge but do check your sources. And no, I am not interested in the ideas or thoughts of these protesters. Stood a few times very close to these protesters.

1. is the exhibition supported by leading public officials?

Know this- Silence is agreement especially in a place with the record of Germany. Your stand on Holocaust Denial is quite relevant! Other remarks- Using the term Klagemaur is collaborating with the original Antisemitic idea (explained earlier), the real victims of the Nazi terror should come first in order!!! Germany was the Belligerent- this is a very clear fact! I see that you know many languages, apparently there’s a difference between knowing a language and using it correctly, Nazis and other anti-Semites always made use of clean language (or euphemisms) let’s not follow this fallacy (Herman- is not a peace loving activist, victims of the German NSDAP are not victims of allied air raids).

You will report me- Oh what a laugh- well be my guest it suits you, the subject and things I thought we are discussing.

I will ignore your remarks about framing and about my person. About 1: within the context of Cologne this is relevant. About 2: you're right, ignorant readers might assume it was rebuilt during the war, I changed it. About 3: OK then don't remove it. About 4: your opinion is not supported by facts. Cities were bombed by both sides, for strategic reasons, not as punishment for atrocities that were as yet unknown. About 5: how can you tell whether antisemitism is on the rise by visiting one square occasionally? Note that criticism of actions/politics of the state of Israel doesn't necessarily equal antisemitism. See this definition by the European Union: [1]. About 6: I'm sure this or similar caricatures weren't there before 2004, the first time Jewish organisations protested against it. What do you call hate posters? About 7: that's not an answer. You state that there are demonstraters claiming that Israel has no right to exist every Sunday. If you can't prove that, it shouldn't be in the article. About 8: that's your personal opinion, not a fact. I suppose you identify strongly with Israel. About 9: that's not an answer. "Support" is an active verb, maybe you mean "tolerate". Markussep ^Talk 20:18, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

April 2010

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Cologne. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period. Additionally, users who perform several reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. When in dispute with another editor you should first try to discuss controversial changes to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. Should that prove unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. Please stop the disruption, otherwise you may be blocked from editing. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 19:29, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to contribute to the encyclopedia, but when you add or change content please cite a reliable source for the content of your edit. This is particularly important when adding or changing any facts or figures and helps maintain our policy of verifiability. Take a look at Wikipedia:Citing sources for information about how to cite sources and the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. You need to cite what you are adding to the Cologne, Dresden, Düsseldorf, Essen, Duisburg, Chemnitz, etc, etc articles. Otherwise it appears you are adding your own opinions and analysis of events. Wikipedia relies on additions being sourced from reliable sources, it is not somewhere to add your own thoughts. Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 19:38, 3 April 2010 (UTC)