Noram-27

Welcome!

Hello, Noram-27, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

• Introduction and Getting started
• Contributing to Wikipedia
• The five pillars of Wikipedia
• How to edit a page and How to develop articles
• How to create your first article
• Simplified Manual of Style

You may also want to take the Wikipedia Adventure, an interactive tour that will help you learn the basics of editing Wikipedia. You can visit The Teahouse to ask questions or seek help.

Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or , and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! --Rocknrollmancer (talk) 21:55, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

May 2016

Hello, I'm Rocknrollmancer. I noticed that you made a change to an article, Mick Grant, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so! If you need guidance on referencing, please see the referencing for beginners tutorial, or if you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page.

Nothing in the reference you added confirms that Grant was a wildcard - his Isle of Man record shows his first finishes in TT races were 1970 and 1971, with two podiums (350 and 500) in 1972, which would carry World Chanmpionship points. --Rocknrollmancer (talk) 21:55, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello, I'm Rocknrollmancer. I noticed that you made a change to an article, Troy Bayliss, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so! If you need guidance on referencing, please see the referencing for beginners tutorial, or if you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. --Rocknrollmancer (talk) 21:55, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Grand Prix Wildcards

Hi Rocknrollmancer, I looked on Wikipedia for wildcards and found this section of [page] which says "In motorcycle racing the term 'wild card' is used for competitors only involved in individual rounds of a championship". This applies to both Mick Grant (he wildcarded a number of times at the IOM) and Troy Bayliss. Please reinstate that word on Bayliss' page.

The 31 March - 13 April 2016 issue of Australian Motorcycle News (Vol 65 No. 19) which I own, has an article on Bayliss' achievement (pp 78 - 84), written by Mat Oxley. Is this acceptable as a source? This pdf shows clearly that Bayliss entered only one race, which he won. Should I link that to the article?

On Motogp.com there is this page that has some statistics including the fact that he entered only one race in the 500cc Grand Prix championship in 1975, which he won. That should qualify him as being a wildcard. There seems to be no way to link directly to this information as it is in an internal form behind the "statistics" tab.

I hope these sources suffice. If so, I will insert them into the applicable entries. Thanks for the guidance. I would like to question some things you have written about this issue, if I may: Your idea of what a "wildcard" is does not match with the wikipedia entry, or this reference to them on the MotoGP website here which says that "Additions are quite rare, the difference being an ‘addition’ is accepted by IRTA for one event whereas wildcards are nominated by various national Federations." Bayliss and Grant were both just wildcards, not additions. It seems you hold a personal view of what a wildcard is. I am using the definition commonly used by the MotoGP website and many commentators. I will only use the wikipedia accepted version. You say that Grant had raced the TT and it was not raced by many regulars of the championship. That is irrelevant, as is the further information about it being dropped. Fact - Grant entered one championship grand prix that year. He won it. It was the 1975 500cc IOM TT, an FIM sanctioned World Championship event.

Thanks for the mention of my use of the term "premier class". I am unable to find a better phrase to encapsulate both 500cc and MotoGP classes. Even wiki doesn't answer that. It appears that a retrospective renaming of the 500cc class to MotoGP has gained favour. I will be more specific. On [Wiki page] I read "MotoGP, the premier class of GP motorcycle racing, has changed dramatically in recent years."

Can I get my edits back now please? Thanx, Noram-27 (talk) 04:51, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

This is just a courtesy message to confirm I have seen this, will need to go to the appropriate project talk page for others to comment on; I have tried to help you but now you seem to be more determined not to accept my advice, even to the extent of suggesting that I have a particular or different opinion in regard to 'wildcard' that you are not happy with, so congratulations, as a new user, in spinning that back on me.

I have given a recent and perfect example of 'wildcard', with Kyle Ryde; further arguing that Mick Grant was - only by retrospectively-applied recent definition - technically a wildcard, ie, not actually nomintated or awarded a wildcard entry again at the time, seems to be just trying to big-up Bayliss' 'feat', and pack-out the prose, as a motorcycle writer would, and not encyclopedic. The Mick Grant TT entry list suggests he started and DNF in the 1975 250 race, which would have been a GP. I'll leave you to deliberate if this is correct FACT??? Or are you trying to argue that wildcard means one entry into the specific engine-capacity class, conveniently discounting the other engine-size events at the same venue? Does Matt Oxley actually link Mick Grant, or is there simply a 30-year reference? If not, why not name him? I can't see you getting any support for extrapolating your own theory and introducing this into an encyclopedia, based on a 2016 report, relating to 1975. You could try to contact Matt for his opinion. All that you are arguing is very recent - I cited an October, 1975 magazine in the Mick Grant article and have re-read it as it covers Grant's contractual arrangements from when Kawasaki Racing UK was established with Grant in 1974. No mention of wildcard win in June 1974.

I will not have time to read the links you provided for some hours/days. Nothing I saw online previously states (published contemporaneous with his win) Bayliss as a wildcard. Whereas you might cite Matt with his exact quotation in the Bayliss article, it would be unreasonable in my view to link this specifically to Mick Grant, inventing the wildcard scenario, unless specifically named; again, if you should insist on proceeding to change the Mick Grant page you should make it clear exactly what the citation confirms, with no added original research/conclusions. One new-editor recently added "American retailer ***** imported ******* and sold them via their catalog under the -/-/ captive import brand, however even this was not enough to save the company". When picked-up politely on this unsourced personal commentary, the reaction was "Well, since the company went out of business it didn't seem like a stretch to say that they did so in spite of their overseas market. That doesn't seem controversial to me".

Lastly, regarding MotoGP.com, this is very recent and IMO not relaible as we don't know the writers - could be just telephonists/call centre operators. We have had this before in a different format. The problem is that Wikipedia has such high search engine results that anyone can clone it then another editor later cites it as a 'source'. Show me an historic, hard-published source that states Mick Grant was a wildcard and I'll happily accept it.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 18:57, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Just a quick addition - you should consider WP:SYNTH. Thanks.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 20:43, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Another thought - what you refer to as 'premier class' has been historically referred to as "Blue Ribbon", which editors war over, changing it to 'Blue Riband', so WP needs to move on and relect the times, much like it was re-named as MotoGP with the abandonment of 500cc two stroke engines. As I stated long ago - it's a can of worms.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 20:49, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your understanding - often in a content dispute it's better to step away, which allows time for contemplation and extra research; often things occur to me after sleep.

The links you suggested are of little or no use, being primary sources, simply results-tables - there is no doubt that either rider won their respective races, it's history; Wikipedia prefers secondary sources, particularly in a content-dispute. You should not attempt to add your own research, or synthsise with other sources including Wiki-page content to try achieve the outcome you desire. There is no way that Mick Grant was a wildcard, as he'd entered TT races since 1970, been a works Norton and Triumph rider in 1972 and 1973, and was contracted to Kawasaki from 1974, when he competed in Ontario (raceway), California and then the 1975 TT(s), all requiring pre-paid, pre-approved entries with firm cut-off points. Accordingly, I would prefer you not to change Grant's page.

Bayliss was a replacement rider - he didn't provide his own bike, he used Sete Gibernau's bike and entry. I don't believe there is adequate reason to conclude this was classed as an extra 'wildcard' entry. If Gibernau wasn't injured, Bayliss would not have raced. I found one internet entry stating wild card in the image caption with comments "in a one-off ride replacing the injured Sete Gibernau" and "in a race won by Ducati stand-in Troy Bayliss". Others state: for a one-off ride to replace the injured Sete Gibernau and Troy Bayliss, the man substituting for Sete Gibernau, + That humiliation is tempered somewhat when the substitute is Troy Bayliss. You can't consider what commentators say for inclusion to Wikipedia - my suppostion would be spontaneous, almost-slang usage, for want of a better term. I'll add it to my list - nearly 300 things to research.

Wikipedia in itself is considered an unreliable source. You shouldn't try to use WP content to aid a content dispute or add to a synthesis. The Wild card (sports)#Motorcycle racing section intro is completely unsourced (ie., Original Research, the personal thoughts of an individual) established in June, 2006 by an Irish editor, with the Superbike and MotoGP pdf-cited parts added in January, 2008 by a Greek editor. Accordingly, you should regard the intro with extreme circumspection - don't try to abstract info to use in an argument or synthesis. The PDFs I cannot open - they are shown as applicable to 2007 season. Ten years ago WP was much smaller and much more lax, allowing anyone to write anything. None of this is evidence that Bayliss was a wildcard from my perspective, as his 'normal' race season had ended.

A major problem is the unproductive down-time - the Law of Diminishing Returns - massive input for little or no consequence, on what is ultimately a very minor point - luckily, I have nothing specific to achieve on WP, and, already, dealing with this has helped in other ways. My vague understanding is that there was no record to be broken, no "feat" until Mat Oxley 'invented' it in 2016? No-one at the time (2006) commented that it was a broken record from 1975, that we know of? I correctly guessed that the piece was post the 2007-Wikipedia use of the word "wildcard", and further pre-empted that the writer could have accesssed WP for his research (I only know Mat Oxley's career in the 1980s with UK MCN, and as a TT rider). Accordingly, I would personally regard this aspect of Mat Oxley's piece as a Primary Source, ie., his opinion. Wikipedia has a precept - words to the effect of - 'it needs to be discussed by secondary sources', so I would've expected other sources to have commented previously.

It's difficult for me to advise, as only you know how much (or how little) you have, but if you go ahead with changes to Bayliss' page I would recommend a new paragraph, making it clear that Mat Oxley described the record/feat in 2016, not 2006, formatting something like

In 2016, Mat Oxley wrote in Australian Motorcycle News that Bayliss' 2006 MotoGP race victory at Valencia was the first wildcard win for 30 years

and leave it at that. That would subtley assert it was his retrospective opinion, emphasising it was written in 2016, not 2006. It's important that you should understand your contributions to Wikipedia are donations, and they can be changed by any editor; I need to also advise that you should not mark any edit which changes the way the prose is read as minor. That should cover it for now. Many thanks for reading this.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 00:13, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi Rocknrollmancer, This wiki thing is tricky. Thanx for taking the trouble to guide me through the process. The word "wildcard" is not defined by MotoGP or FIM. It has a number of meanings in casual use. We both read it to mean different things. Fair enough. Bayliss did win the only race he entered in that specific class in 2006. No one had done that since Mick Grant in 1975. Oxley did not mention Grant, I only found his name when I wondered who had done this before Bayliss. Original research right there. Inadmissable. Fair enough. I will avoid synthesis too (tricky, like I said).

I mis-entered an edit as "minor" before realising what 'minor" means. Got it, thanx. Noram-27 (talk) 01:58, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

What is a "wildcard" in motorcycle GP racing?

Hi Rocknrollnancer, I am sorry that I have offended you (congratulations?). I am simply trying to highlight 2 historic events in a sport I love. We are mired in disagreement about the use of this word. Wikipedia (IMHO) agrees with my definition. You don't see it as such so I will leave it alone. Thanx for your assistance and direction.

I am resigned to the reality that I will not be able to in any way highlight these events, so I will bow to your superior knowledge of wiki, and go away. Thanx Noram-27 (talk) 01:00, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

...but then I found this contemporary text which I submit for your review and (I hope) approval: uses the sentence "Troy Bayliss made more history - taking his first GP win, the first for a reigning Superbike champion, the first to win races in both championships in the same year." Would it be seen to be ok to insert my paraphrasing of this into the article? Something like: <Existing -> Remarkably Bayliss qualified 2nd and led the whole race, which ended in a Ducati 1–2. > This was the first time any rider had won a race in both the Superbike and the Grand Prix world championships in the same year, and the first by a reigning champion.

I look forward to hearing from you. Thanx again for your patience Noram-27 (talk) 03:33, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Yep, that seems good. I am pleased it's something you know and love as you may be able to help with Paul Dobbs. It was one of a few articles considered for deletion - I was in favour of deletion, but others decided it should be kept. I couldn't find adequate online reasons to keep it, or to expand the content - the late Paul Dobbs himself needed to be subject to regular press coverage prior to his death, only at which point the article was established, based on death/news sources. I follow a couple of more-experienced editors who are of the opinion to find reasons to keep and improve, not delete. Accordingly I am trying to become a better editor, and I put the pic on but was hoping at some future point that someone would have hard-copy coverage to bulk-out the page content. If you have anything it would be appreciated, no urgency. I haven't tried searching the MCN.au site.

I also re-wrote the Gary Carswell article at the widow's request, turning it from three lines into what you see now. She provided the image. I decided that his extensve TT race entry history, his high finish rate, and consistent lap times, often running a stock-specification in higher classes, met the criteria for Notability under Motorsport #3. Many thanks.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 23:45, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanx for you time Rocknrollmancer. I am pleased you approve of the proposed insertion. I shall do it!

Re: Paul Dobbs. I only became aware of him due to his death. I have many bike mags form that time and before, but I don't recall reading of him until his death. A 4 sentence obituary does not contain enough to add to the stub. Even Motocourse (I have the past 30 years of these) didn't mention him prior to his death, except a listing of his 2000 6th place. No help there. I have never heard of Gary Carswell, sorry. Noram-27 (talk) 01:59, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the help looking for Paul Dobbs. I noticed one of our very-English TV commentators say "...(Ant) West, wildcarding for the Pedercini..." quite spontaneously whilst calling the results in the immediate after-race moments, whereas one published source states West acts as cover for injured Barrier in Malaysia - another way of putting it! Regards,--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 11:43, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Regarding the use and interpretation of words, there has been recently massive disruption with a ten-year editor insisting on introducing the Americanism "winningest" on a motorcycle article (can't remember which, initially). This led to others keyword-searching and deleting/overwriting any usage. Apparently it's a term used in North American football to describe the statistics of the most-successful coaches. The feeling was it would only be recognised readily in American football-type articles. This is En Wikipedia, not Am, and so slang terms are not appreciated as many WP readers may not understand, and may not be English first language speakers.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 11:55, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

I've been off-Wiki for a few days and keep remembering things. Shane Byrne, as a TV in-studio WSBK pundit, mentioned, as he has before, the inconsistencies with British Superbike specs which do not now allow sophisticated electronics (anti-wheely, circuit-learning, etc) and with variations in control tyres would make any theoretical wildcard entries (from a national series) non-compatible and non-competitive. I enjoyed seeing Beato on the Irving Vincent recently on TV.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 12:09, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi Rocknrollmancer, I am happy to search my Motocourse collection any time you need something (I have 1986 - present). In Australia the term Wildcard is used exactly like that. If a rider only enters one or two rounds of a championship then he is classed as a wildcard. This region specific terminology is what causes these confusions (like "winningest" - never heard that term). Westy did a great job though, 5th on his second superbike race - ever!

SBK have been trying to move their regulations toward a more commonly used spec of bike so wildcards can enter. The UK runs minimal electronics so would struggle, but should be allowed to enter as they do not have more aids than are allowed. Noram-27 (talk) 23:28, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Harley-Davidson XR-750 "It went on to become the winningest race bike in the history of American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) racing", added 9 July 2011, with use of 'winningest' defended by the original editor in January 2016. Then it went away...--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 00:44, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Gooday - that's the English spelling. Just thought I'd confirm that three of our TV commentators for Saturday Mugello MotoGP practice were furiously speculating that Casey would ride as a "wildcard" at a future European location. All things being well with the other contracted Ducati riders, this would require a wildcard entry, that is, a pre-approved third machine on the grid. Casey was then interviewed live, when he confirmed he was visiting Europe for testing purposes, but would not divulge any more info as to when and where. He could have ridden earlier this year as a replacement for injured Petrucci on a Pramac (2015) bike, instead the regular test-rider Pirro took over. Last year, he could have ridden injured Pedrosa's 2015 bike against Marques, but Mr Honda wouldn't allow it!--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 00:58, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

G'day Rocknrollmancer (Aussie spelling), I just watched that session and the Stoner interview. The commentators referred to Pirro as a wildcard too. He is riding a 3rd machine at this round. Noram-27 (talk) 05:57, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Gidday (NZ). I've 'kept my ears on'; being interviewed at length on my local radio station (near Donington Park) was local resident, British Superbike rider Richard Cooper, who is wildcarding at the upcoming European Superstock event at WSBK (think that's right) on a non-works Hawk BMW, so a pre-arranged entry and providing his own bike, from a series that he no longer competes in (British Superstock) to support his team-mate Taylor Mackenzie, although under a different black livery, not the red of Buildbase. Thought Ian Hutchinson (motorcycle racer) might also enter but can't see anything on his Twitter page - too close to TT to risk injury, with big ambitions/expectations there, I guess. He is doing British Superstock on a works-supported Tyco BMW in addition to roads events. Might not be televised, at least live, as it's on Eurosport TV and there's important French Open tennis and cycling, so last weekend's BSB was recorded.

I also saw 2016 MotoGP season#Teams and riders where wildcards and replacements are correctly differentiated, similarly at 2016 Supersport World Championship#Entry list and 2016 Superbike World Championship#Entry list. I haven't checked extensively, but this is an example of why I surmise they may have been discussed on WP previously, and have standardised the Wikitable layout. Rgds,--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 19:12, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Eee Oop (North Country) Rocknrollmancer. I have not had a response from MotoGP or FIM about their definition of a wildcard. The term has differing meanings depending who you talk to. I see that Matthieu Lussiana is listed as a wildcard on the 2016 Superbike World Championship#Entry list as racing two rounds so far, but still a wildcard. I will let you know if I hear from the authorities... Noram-27 (talk) 04:34, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Wildcard 2018

Ay up! Hope all is OK. I noticed the following article stating:

Now, without the pressure of expectation of being a wildcard or stand-in rider, and getting little practice time before going racing, Gagne can take a different view - as far as bike set-up is concerned at least. And he thinks permanent rider position will be an important step.

Bikesport News Jake Gagne. You can see that they've actually acknowledged and differentiated the difference between wildcard and replacement/stand-in rider.

When I saw it I thought of you and can see you've done a bit of editing last year. Best, Steve.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 16:00, 26 January 2018 (UTC)