Mobliocosta

Model years

Hi! Regarding you recent changes at Toyota 4Runner. It is the policy of the Wikipedia Automobile project to use calendar years. In the US it is normal for a "2004" model to mean a vehicle that was introduced sometime around Aug-Oct 2003 and for it to last until sometime around Aug-Oct 2004. However, for most of the world (Asia, Europe, Africa, Australia/New Zealand) a "2004" model is a vehicle that was introduced in the 2004 calendar year. This is a source of confusion for both types of readers (Americans and non-Americans) when it is not clear which meaning is meant. WP:MODELYEAR tries to clarify this. We use calendar years in places like section titles, tables and infoboxes. In the text we assume calendar years but also use phrases such as "In 2003, for the 2004 model year, ...". We also try to put months in front of the year to make it clear to Americans that this is a calendar year, not a model year.

However, for vehicles produced by American companies predominantly for the American market, we allow the use of model years. Your edit summary "not true on other auto pages or this page until it was recently changed" implies to me that you read mostly pages on American vehicles because this is decidedly untrue on vehicles in the non-American markets. Of course, not all pages currently obey the official policy but we're working on it.  Stepho  talk  04:22, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Hello, there seems to be a bit of a grey area, however up until very recently the article was presented this way and had been that way for years since originally written. Changing the years really confuses matters for most readers rather than helps them.Mobliocosta (talk) 02:41, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Reviewing the edit history it doesn't appear anyone has bothered to change this in the past indicating there hasn't been any point of contention up until now.Mobliocosta (talk) 18 October 2016 (UTC)

By "been that way for years" you mean since 1 Oct 2016? Before that date there were no years at all on the engines in the infobox.

Looking back through the history I see numerous changes from calendar years to model years in places like the section titles - almost always by an American using an anonymous IP address. This implies that it is contentious. If something is contentious then the automobile project creates a policy for which way to go. In this case WP:MODELYEAR says we use calendar years. An exception is allowed for vehicles built in American predominantly for the American market. But the 4Runner is built in many multiple countries for multiple markets, so the exception does not apply.

By "most readers" I assume you mean American readers. Using the American model year system actually confuses the crap out of "most" readers - that is non-American readers. This really is an "America vs the rest of the world" thing. America does it one way and most of the world does it another. And it is doubly unfortunate that it is hard to tell them apart. Which is why we created the WP:MODELYEAR policy. However, if you disagree with the policy, then you are free to raise the topic at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles to ask for it to be changed.  Stepho  talk  03:29, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

If most readers were having a problem then this would have been changed earlier which is not the case, the dates have been written this way for 5+ years. I have yet to see any readers indicated any sort of confusion on the talk page other than yourself and it was you who made the change on September 30th which I have reverted. There is no formal policy regarding this yearly changeover nor does any Wikipedia bureaucracy have the authority to make such widespread changes beyond making suggestions. Mobliocosta (talk) 04:49, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Also I've observed based on your previous edit history on numerous automobile pages you are almost solely changing yearly dates of what perhaps hundreds of differing editors have contributed. Though I am not readily finding editors adding dates in the fashion you are reverting them to.Mobliocosta (talk) 08:59, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Am I correct in assuming that you are an American looking at mostly American articles? That would explain the pattern you see of mostly US style model years. I spend most of my time on Australian, Japanese and European vehicle articles and it is much more common to see calendar years there. Outside of America the model year system of looking forward a year is not very common and is, frankly, confusing to us (I'm Australian but have lived and/or worked in other countries).

As detailed at WP:MODELYEARS, the automobile project has agreed that calendar years are preferred over US style model years - exceptions allowed for American vehicles made predominantly for the American market, but that doesn't apply to this vehicle which is sold internationally. If you disagree with this then please, please raise it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles. What is the use of a project agreeing to something if the editors just say it can be ignored?

Advice for protracted disagreements like this is detailed at WP:BRD. You have been bold and made an edit on 16 October 2016 (which is your right). I have reverted your edit (which is my right). Then we discuss. That part of the article stays in its previous state until we resolve our disagreement. If we can't solve our disagreement then we ask others to comment (such as at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles). If we still can't resolve it then we can ask administrators for help at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.  Stepho  talk  13:52, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Based on your edit history you have been altering the years of hundreds of differing editors over the course of 10 years. I am not seeing editors on this page or the many other pages you are changing adding the years in the manner you demand, instead when the years are added you change them. This is not reserved to this page rather numerous pages with multiple different editors over a span of years.

The original state of the 4Runner article is with the years presented currently which it has been been for years. You have changed someone else's edit and now you are changing mine.

Irregular editors who make the vast majority of additions on Wikipedia's automobile articles have added years and you alter them to unknown regulations. On the [Toyota Sienna]] page recently you have changed [1] the years many times.

Meanwhile you place hidden messages throughout in the article informing would be editors not to change back the years [2], which when occurs you alter over and over again.Mobliocosta (talk) 20:21, 18 October 2016 (UTC)