Flatairbag

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Happy editing! 331dot (talk) 09:51, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, and welcome!

Hi there, thanks for your kind email, and for the work you've done on Draft:Jonathan White (painter). There's a bit of a learning curve with Wikipedia for sure and it can be tricky to understand not just what makes someone notable but how to demonstrate that to meet Wikipedia's requirements. I certainly agree with you that White warrants an article (he meets WP:GNG in my view) and hopefully it makes it through the next review. :)

One thing I was wondering, where does the following information come from? "White would often capture photographs and form detailed sketches whilst on location, then produce oil paintings in his studio. His style could be classed as realism and representational of the scenes he was capturing." I have no doubt that's all true, but if there's a direct source for that, would be great to get it in the article. Feel free to reply to me on here (your talk page), I'll keep an eye on the page.

P.S. if you are interested in New Zealand topics you may be interested in Wikipedia:WikiProject New Zealand. You can join by adding your username to the list at Wikipedia:WikiProject New Zealand/Members; we're always keen to get new editors on board! Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 21:38, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi there, thank you for the information, and again your time and contributions on Draft:Jonathan White (painter). It seems "how it's packaged" is the takeaway I understand from your edit and experience.

Another possible inter-link to the above page could be here List of New Zealand artists?

The "realism and representational" was summarised from the artists webpage: https://jonathanwhite.co.nz/ "Jonathan White (MNZM) was a New Zealand traditional representational artist.", and the terms also mentioned in this article (already referenced https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown-lakes/rare-peek-collection ), and mentioned on a number of sites like https://www.invaluable.com/artist/white-jonathan-n4rcengd7l/ .

- I had a look at the artists "previous webpages" on the WayBack Machine at https://web.archive.org/web/20031203183418/http://home.xtra.co.nz/hosts/jrwhite/bio.htm and https://web.archive.org/web/20050323091036/http://www.jonathanwhite.co.nz/biography.htm which indicates there was another book called "Footsteps in the Wilderness.

Past published works include;

1981 "New Zealands Majestic Wilderness" -- A collection of 52 paintings of S.W. Fiordland.

1985 "Jonathan White's New Zealand"--(also as a limited edition volume bound in silk and leather.)

1990 "Footsteps in the Wilderness".

http://worldcat.org/identities/lccn-nb2004306718/

- I found a small article here: https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/life-style/90101341/from-painting-photography-and-then-to-bonzai--lindsay-muirhead-has-art-covered which mentions a NZ artist "Lindsay Muirhead" following Jonathan Whites painting style.

"He followed an artist called Jonathan White, who published a book called Majestic Wildness."

Muirhead remembers it costing a fair bit, but he "drooled" over the book and tried to re-create that style of artwork with his own flair.

- This article also mentiones Whites name 3 times, it is a PDF from a KELLIHER ART TRUST COLLECTION https://static1.squarespace.com/static/60835d36b97ec7699cf35430/t/61b261dccd97a66edae61ca7/1639080441437/Rare%2BUnrivalledbeauty-F14_D15.pdf

- He is mentioned in another Antartica reference - http://www.antarctic-circle.org/fox.htm

- Not sure if this link was referenced but also found it online https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Jonathan_White_s_New_Zealand.html?id=9mtMuwAACAAJ&redir_esc=y

Keep up the good work, cheers. Flatairbag (talk) 11:11, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

That's all very useful, thanks so much! Sometimes just digging out the sources is half the battle. I have added most of these points into the article. It looks like the Footsteps work is recorded as published in 1989 on WorldCat, so I've gone with that date rather than the date from his personal website. I haven't added the point about Lindsay Muirhead following his painting style yet, since Muirhead doesn't himself have a Wikipedia page; if he is notable himself then it might be worth mentioning. Once the page gets published (which I'm sure it will), we can add inter-wiki links to other pages. :)

One other issue relates to the photo. The fact that it was used by White on his website doesn't mean it can be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons, unfortunately; it needs to have been released under a free licence by the photographer. See this Commons overview for more information. However, given that he is a deceased person, the photo could be uploaded to Wikipedia itself if no other free images of White are known to exist, relying on Wikipedia's non-free content policy for images. Let me know if you're aware of any free photos of him (i.e. the photographer has granted a licence for anyone else to use, modify, copy or sell the picture); if not, I'll get onto moving it onto Wikipedia itself.

Apologies that this may seem confusing; photograph licensing is one of the more complicated sides of Wikipedia (I regularly have to explain to article subjects that they don't actually own the copyright in photos taken of themselves; copyright remains with the photographer usually). Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 21:44, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi again, thanks very much for updating that information. I find the research the interesting part - I should start a family tree!

Yes agree on the Muirhead reference.

Re photo, Ill update more information here soon on that. Flatairbag (talk) 16:20, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi again - hope your good. Sorry for the delay, I've wanted to double check with the original photographer, and yes there is permission to use the image file in the article.

The photographers name was "Pēteris Endzelis" if there was such a place to add this reference.

Cheers Flatairbag (talk) 16:19, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

That's great. Granting permission to use the photo in the article is slightly different to releasing the photo under a free licence (the latter requires the photographer to publicly say that they agree anyone can use, copy, modify or sell the photo, although people who use the photo must give credit to the photographer). There are a few options here:

1. If the photographer was willing to upload the photo himself to Wikimedia Commons that would be the easiest route.
2. Alternatively if he has a website and was willing to publish the photo on the website under the Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license that would also work (and we can add a link to the website on Wikimedia Commons as proof).
3. If he's not keen on doing either then let me know and I can upload the photograph to Wikipedia as previously suggested; this isn't too much faff.

Hope that makes sense! And re: finding research the interesting part, Wikipedia can always use more people willing to do the research and find sources; I personally prefer the writing side of things so really appreciated you digging out all those sources! If you are interested in NZ painters generally then this category contains short articles on NZ painters that could do with expansion. Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 20:27, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi again, thanks for the clarification on that. There is permission from the photographer himself to use this image on this Wikipedia page - He has had an opportunity to view the Wiki image terms and conditions and is aware the image could be freely used by others.

However, I personally do not agree with anyone else being able to then sell the photo on should they wish to, even with a credit.

So, (3) if there is a way we can just use it on this Wikipedia page under the non-free content policy, then that will be the best approach here? I appreciate the support on this thank you.

Re: research... wow that looks like a serious retirement hobby ;-) - Im not at that stage yet, but will bookmark this category and try to take a look at some when possible. Flatairbag (talk) 08:40, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Afternoon! Thanks, that's totally fair enough (and usually a sticking point for people!). I've arranged for the deletion on Wikimedia Commons, and will add it to the article once it is published (it's difficult to do while the page is still in draft, but the lack of a photo shouldn't prevent the article from getting published). Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 02:07, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi Chocmilk03, your a star! Thanks for the effort. I took a look at one of the other artists yesterday, but she was from the 19th C and not alot about her showing up. Will scan through the list as I get time. Cheers. Flatairbag (talk) 08:33, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Wow, submission was declined again - a tough editor! Flatairbag (talk) 14:17, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Oh wait - think I got the dates wrong.. still waiting review. Sorry. Flatairbag (talk) 14:21, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

No need to apologise; I always find the AFC UI a bit confusing! Relieved that it hasn't been declined again; hopefully it will get reviewed soon (fingers crossed). Hope you are having a good weekend :) Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 23:07, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

There we go! :) Great work on the research, and I'll sort the photo soon (hopefully tomorrow!). Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 05:49, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Jonathan White (painter) has been accepted

Jonathan White (painter), which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

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Thanks again, and happy editing!

MurielMary (talk) 00:54, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Photograph of White

Kia ora! Was just going through the photo uploading process, and one of the questions asked is "For subjects who died recently: have you made a reasonable effort to find people who might possess photographs of this person and might be willing to release one?". I'm thinking I will email his estate at the email address listed on his website, but before I do that, I wondered if you might have already done so? Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 23:37, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the message. Yes I had contacted the family already, who were using that picture on the artists website (now managed by the artists Estate). They confirmed we could use it, and then it was double-checked with the original photographer who granted permission also for the Wikipedia page. However, the strange license to allow an independent party to use & monitize this image for their own use seemed something to avoid if possible.

PS: the artists 'Estate' have read the Wikipedia draft article and mentioned he was born on 12th of September (if such a fact was useful to add). It seems there is other information about this artists achievements, but it seemed he lived a "private" life away from media noise and there are a lack of references and citations online for such information.

Cheers. Flatairbag (talk) 09:43, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Great, thanks! It would be useful to add his DOB, but would need a reliable source with this info, which as you say is the tricky part. I think it's still quite a good article even without all possible details (and totally respect that he wasn't a self-publicising kind of person!); you did a great job in finding sources notwithstanding that. Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 22:25, 3 November 2022 (UTC)