Wikipedia

User:DankJae/Wales-related names

< User:DankJae
(Redirected from User:DankJae/Welsh names)

This is a user page to collect details on the use names by English-language sources to use for maintaining or changing the naming of articles related to Wales.

Relevant overall policies: WP:COMMONNAME, WP:NAMECHANGES and WP:WIAN. Local use policies Wikipedia:TITLEVAR and MOS:TIES.

Note: Do not use primacy as an argument, name changes must not include the old name.

I do not have a personal agenda towards these, and tbh would personally oppose some in real life, preferring existing or other names, but value consensus, would ignore my personal preferences and open to change, so willing to raise discussions.

I will raise discussions on the most controversial moves on the more popular pages, but will now avoid discussion-first approaches on other pages, due to slow discussions and non-policy opposition.

Use of any name on Welsh Wikipedia (Wicipedia) will NOT be considered here as the sole argument or sole version, following the lack of reasoning/discussion and the potentially agenda-based editing there for the "best" Welsh name.[i] Each name here would go down the long route.[ii]

See User:DankJae/Wales-related names/Other for my efforts in responding to the list of standardised Welsh place-names and List of standardised Welsh lake names in Snowdonia.

High-priority indicators

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The following would be used to quickly identify whether a name change has a strong case:

  • Random selection of news media
  • Stark absence of old name in news media
  • Google Trends (usually long-standing disputes)
  • Ngrams (long-standing disputes only)

This is not exclusive, however, if a case passes one above, it would be prioritised and highly likely. All other cases would still go under the slower more in-depth process.

Policy

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Wikipedia Guidance
  • WP:COMMONNAME - Use the most recognisable name in most instances, most popular name in sources and to an extent search results.
  • WP:NAMECHANGES - However, if there is an alternate name increasing in use, analyse whether recent results or sources adopt the alternative name. Limit results to those more recent.
  • WP:WIAN - Example procedure for analysing COMMONNAME and NAMECHANGES.

List of indicators by importance:

  • English-language news media can also be very reliable sources. Due caution must be given to the possibility of bias in some, such as for nationalistic, religious or political reasons. However, major global sources are generally reliable, such as major authoritative English-language newspapers (examples: The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Times of London) or wire services (examples: Reuters, Associated Press). Google News and Lexis-Nexis search results can provide a quick guide to the relative predominance of alternative names across the media as a whole, provided the search parameters are properly set, but as with all raw search numbers, they should be used with caution.
  • Also generally reliable are standard histories and scientific studies of the area in question (examples: Cambridge Histories; the Library of Congress country studies; Library of Congress Subject Headings; and Oxford dictionaries). However, due caution is needed in case they are dated, not relevant to the period in question, or written by a non-native speaker of English.
  • Some sources require individual analysis to be useful; these include books and articles, such as those found at Google Scholar or Google Books. They must be looked at individually for accuracy, possible bias, and appropriateness of period. Even if a book or scholarly article was written after watershed events that resulted in a name change, it may use historical place names in the context of the work.
  • Google Scholar and Google Books search engines can provide helpful results, if parameters are properly set. In particular, a Google Ngram Viewer search of Google Books can provide valuable insights. But even a widely recognised name change will take time to be reflected in such searches, as they may still include references to the place name before the change. Also, relatively obscure places that have a major impact on history during a particular time period will continue to show disproportionately large search returns for the location's name during that period.
  • Raw counts from Google must be considered with extreme caution, if at all.
  • See also Search engine issues below.

Search engine use

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See also: Wikipedia:Google searches and numbers

Search engine tests should be used with care: in testing whether a name is widely accepted English usage, we are interested in hits which are in English, represent English usage, mean the place in question, and are not duplicates of each other or of Wikipedia. Search engine results can fail on all of these.

Google may give unreliable estimates at the onset of a search; it is often preferable to restrict the competing searches to less than 1000 hits, and examine the number of hits on the final page. Google does not return more than 1,000 actual results; hit counts above this are estimates which cannot readily be examined, and are imperfect evidence of actual usage. Adding additional search terms may reduce the number of hits to this range, but adds additional random variance.

  • Failure to use only English sources:
    • Language-filtered searches include works that contain only brief English sections. These sections may not discuss the place name in question.
    • Search engines will find hits when a paper in English is quoting foreign text, which may well include foreign placenames. This often occurs when citing a paper by title. For example, hits which are in fact citations of German papers which use Riesengebirge are not evidence of English usage, either way.
  • Failure to reflect only English usage:
    • Google Scholar will frequently return post office addresses, especially for modern university towns. This attests to local usage, not to English usage (except of course for settlements in the English-speaking world, for which local usage should prevail).
    • Search engines do not normally distinguish consistent use of a name from a single mention. Any good history of Venice will mention Venezia at least once; any good history of Bratislava will mention Pressburg. But what we want is the word they consistently use to refer to the city; it is very difficult to find that with a search engine, especially when the question is: does the source call nineteenth- or eighteenth-century Bratislava something different?
      • For example, hits which are of the form "X (Foolanguage Y)" attest to English usage of X, and Foolanguage usage of Y. The latter matters to the Foolanguage Wikipedia, not to us.
    • Please remember that Google Scholar and Google Books are imperfectly random selections out of the whole corpus of English writing. If the results could easily have arisen by chance (for example, if there are only half-a-dozen or so valid hits on all the alternatives combined), this is not a good indicator of widespread English usage.
  • Failure to be about the place under discussion:
    • Many names are used for several places, often several places of the same type. In addition, many placenames have become surnames, and papers which are by authors with those surnames do not establish English usage for the placename.
  • Failure to represent independent usage of the name:
    • Some websites mechanically copy and compile other websites, including Wikipedia itself. These should not be counted as separate instances of English usage, but as the same instance duplicated. Wikipedia mirrors and forks, which may also appear in Google Book or Google Scholar searches, are unacceptable sources. When using Google search results as a usage metric, always include "-wikipedia" in the search conditions. This will exclude some, although not all, Wikipedia mirrors.

Some of these problems will be lessened if the search includes an English word, like "city" or "river", as well as the placename. (If this is done with one proposed placename, it must of course be done for all competing proposals.) Another approach is to examine the first few pages of hits, and see what proportion of them are false hits. But the only certain control is to count how many hits are genuinely in English, assert English usage, and deal with the place discussed.

Another useful idea, especially when one name seems to be used often in the construct "X (also called Y)" in sources that consistently use X thereafter, is to search for "and X" against "and Y" (or "in X" versus "in Y") to see which is common in running prose.

List of sources for Geographical names

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Using a list rather than a table to make it easier to edit and organise.

Parameters to remember where needed, "word" (use quotation marks), -Wikipedia, -non-independent sources, date range (if needed), language (if possible), -cymraeg (if possible; and does not exclude English results with may have cymraeg on their pages as a link).

  • English-language news media (monitor for bias)
    • International sources (may be unaware of any change or other terms)
    • UK sources (may prefer English terms)
    • Wales sources (may prefer Welsh terms)
  • News aggregators (ensure proper formatting of search, limiting to English, exclusions if needed, use with caution)
  • Standard history or scientific studies of the area (use caution, may be outdated, irrelevant or by a non-native English speaker)
    • Cambridge Histories
    • Oxford dictionaries
  • Individual books (caution, looked for accuracy, bias or appropriateness, may use historical names for context)
  • Google Scholar (set proper parameters)
  • Google Books (set proper parameters)
  • Google Ngram Viewer (to 2019)
  • Google Search (set proper parameters)
  • Bing Search (set proper parameters) (less reliable)
  • Organisations
    • Official bodies
    • Local bodies (not news media, they are classed above)
Template
  • Name:
  • Reasoning:
  • Policy:
  • Result:
  • Status:
Sources for more controversial geographical names

Long-standing names, for example place-names, with a lot of colloquial use outside of standard secondary sources would require a more indepth analysis into common use. As it has no official or formal name, common use of all types of sources must be considered, as well as long-standing sources, rather than specifically recent.

  • English-language news media (monitor for bias)
    • International sources (may be unaware of any change or other terms) (not all sources may comment on lower-profile changes)
      • ABC News
      • ABC News Australia
      • Agency France-Presse
      • Al-Jazerra
      • Associated Press
      • The Atlantic
      • BBC World News (if different from BBC below)
      • Bloomberg
      • Buzzfeed News
      • CNN
      • The Conversation
      • DW News
      • HuffPost (excl. contributors)
      • The Indian Express
      • Inter Press Service
      • Mother Jones
      • MSNBC
      • National Geographic
      • NBC News
      • The New York Times
      • NPR
      • Pew Research Center
      • Politico
      • ProPublica
      • Reuters
      • South China Morning Post
      • USA Today
      • Vanity Fair
      • The Wall Street Journal
      • The Washington Post
      • Yahoo! News

Others depending on name.

    • UK sources (may prefer English terms)

Others depending on name.

    • Wales sources (may prefer Welsh terms)
      • BBC News Wales
      • ITV News Wales
      • WalesOnline
      • Nation.Cymru
      • Herald Wales
      • Business News Wales
      • The Western Mail
      • Wales247
    • Local sources (regional)
      • (North) North Wales Chronicle
      • (North) North Wales Live
      • (North) North Wales Pioneer
      • (Mid) Cambrian News
      • (South) South Wales Argus
      • (South) South Wales Echo
      • (South) South Wales Evening Post
    • Local sources (hyperlocal)
      • (East) Oswestry and Border Counties Advertizer
      • (North East) Leader Live
      • (Powys) County Times
    • Local sources (urban)
      • (Abergavenny) Abergavenny Chronicle
      • (Barry) Barry Today
      • (Bridgend) Bridgend and Porthcawl Gem
      • (Caerphilly) Caerphilly Observer
      • (Carmarthenshire) Carmarthenshire News Online
      • (Deeside) Deeside.com
      • (Denbighshire) Denbighshire Free Press
      • (Monmouthshire) Monmouthshire Beacon
      • (Pembrokeshire) Western Telegraph
      • (Rhyl) Rhyl Journal
      • (Tenby) Tenby Observer
      • (Wrexham) Wrexham.com
  • News aggregators (ensure proper formatting of search, limiting to English, exclusions if needed, use with caution)
  • Standard history or scientific studies of the area (use caution, may be outdated, irrelevant or by a non-native English speaker)
    • Cambridge Histories
    • Oxford dictionaries
  • Individual books (caution, looked for accuracy, bias or appropriateness, may use historical names for context)
  • Google Scholar (set proper parameters)
    • Existing name
    • Name 1
    • Name n
  • Google Books (set proper parameters)
    • Existing name
    • Name 1
    • Name n
  • Google Ngram Viewer (to 2019)
    • Existing name
    • Name 1
    • Name n
  • Google Search (set proper parameters)
    • Existing name
    • Name 1
    • Name n
  • Bing Search (set proper parameters) (less reliable)
    • Existing name
    • Name 1
    • Name n
  • Organisations
    • Legislation
    • Official bodies
    • UK Government
    • UK agencies
      • Relevant UK Government department
      • Relevant UK executive agency
      • Visit Britain
      • UK Parliamentary committees
    • Welsh Government
    • Visit Wales
    • Welsh devolved agencies
      • Relevant Welsh Government directorate
      • Relevant Welsh Government sponsored body or managed organisation
      • Cadw or RCHAMW
      • Natural Resources Wales
    • Regional bodies
      • Regional economic organisation
      • Regional tourism organisation
      • Regional transport organisation
    • Local bodies (not news media, they are classed above)
    • Local council
    • Local community council
    • Local tourism board
    • Other bodies
      • National trust
      • Relevant charity
Template for formal names

Formal bodies, for example organisations, have less colloquial use and therefore more dependent on current reliable sources to investigate common use. They also have clearer official names and branding therefore much more susceptible to name changes.

  • Name: Current name → New name
  • Reasoning: Change in name
  • Policy: WP:NAMECHANGES
  • Result:
  • Status:   In progress

Review period dates (usually 1 year)

Sources using current name:

Sources using other combination:

Sources using new/alternative name:

Other uses:

Other stats:

Additional guidance

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  • Nation.Cymru has a tendency to use Welsh names exclusively, therefore on content edits arguing for inclusion of the other name in leads or bodies, where only one source may only be needed, an another source other than Nation.Cymru would be preferred over questioning full independence. Nonetheless, relying on one source for use is questionable itself.

List of potential renames

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Permanently delay entries based only on its use by the list of standardised Welsh place-names of the Welsh Language Commissioner. These are merely recommendations as of now. Although they’ll be considered if the recommended form had some use before.
  • Cwmbran → Cwmbrân — WLC recommendation suggested at talk.[a]
  • Llandaff → Llandaf — WLC recommendation suggested at talk.[a] Note: Exclude use of Llandaf by local railway station.
  • Llanedeyrn → Llanedern — WLC recommendation suggested at talk.[a]
  • Penylan → Pen-y-lan — WLC recommendation suggested at talk.[a]
  • Possibly all Peny → Pen-y places
  • Abercraf → Abercrave — WLC recommendation suggested at talk.[a]
  • Casnewydd Bach → Little Newcastle — WLC recommendation suggested at talk.[a]
  • Llannewydd → Newchurch, Carmarthenshire — WLC recommendation suggested at talk.[a]
  • Bwlchgwyn → Bwlch-gwyn — WLC recommendation suggested at talk.[a]

Notes

  1. ^ a b c d e f g h i j k l Note the Welsh Language Commissioner is one source and does not supplant other sources alone, per WP:OFFICIALNAMES. It can be used as a basis for complicated or borderline cases, but not where secondary use is overwhelmingly for another name than the WLC's recommendation. If the WLC's name is adopted by councils and used in offical capacity, it is only when that is then used in secondary sources should a proposal be raised per WP:NAMECHANGES or in case WP:COMMONNAME.

Other names

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For change in English names, associated with Wales:

Revert renames

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For changes to Welsh names which may not be supported by sources or policy. If the English name passes, a RM will be requested, if the current name passes it will remain unchanged. Common Name used whether English or Welsh-originating will be respected.

Gwynedd Council

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  • Name: Gwynedd Council → Cyngor Gwynedd
  • Reasoning: Council announced it is to use the Welsh name in English, therefore no longer using "Gwynedd Council" in October 2022.[1]
  • Policy: WP:NAMECHANGES
  • Result:
  • Status:

Review period: October 2022 – January 2024 (~15 months)

Note: avoid "Gwynedd council" as it is a descriptor using a lower case "c" for council.

Sources using current name, Gwynedd Council: UK Gov Cambrian News[2] North Wales Chronicle[3] WalesOnline Daily Post[4][5] BBC

Sources using new name, Cyngor Gwynedd:

Other: Herald Wales (both) North Wales Chronicle (both)

River Towy

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  • Name: River Towy → River Tywi
  • Reasoning:
  • Policy: WP:COMMONNAME
  • Result:
  • Status:   In progress

Initial indicators:

  • Google Ngrams – While River Towy has a very small lead, since the 1970s River Tywi and Afon Tywi (use in English) have steadily risen. Leading to "Tywi" being more popular when combining the last two over the last few decades. But it should remain River, because Afon Tywi is not the most common itself and the most common ones both use River than Afon. River Tywi is used in sources, and not a generated name, whether it is "unnatural" does not matter.

Review period dates (usually 1 year; 2023)

Sources using current name:

South Wales Guardian Britainsrivers.comLlandovery Angling Nation.Cymru ITV WalesOnline[6][7] Herald.Wales BBC Metro

Sources using other combination: Visit Wales (Tywi first, also Towy)

Sources using new/alternative name: BBC[8][9]South Wales Guardian

Other uses: Natural Resouces Wales (mixed) AberdareOnline (Afon Tywi)

Other stats:

List of sources to consider:

  • English-language news media (monitor for bias)

Others depending on name.

    • UK sources (may prefer English terms)

Others depending on name.

    • Wales sources (may prefer Welsh terms)
      • BBC News Wales
      • ITV News Wales
      • WalesOnline
      • Nation.Cymru
      • Herald Wales
      • Business News Wales
      • The Western Mail
      • Wales247
    • Local sources (regional)
      • (North) North Wales Chronicle
      • (North) North Wales Live
      • (North) North Wales Pioneer
      • (Mid) Cambrian News
      • (South) South Wales Argus
      • (South) South Wales Echo
      • (South) South Wales Evening Post
    • Local sources (hyperlocal)
      • (East) Oswestry and Border Counties Advertizer
      • (North East) Leader Live
      • (Powys) County Times
    • Local sources (urban)
      • (Abergavenny) Abergavenny Chronicle
      • (Barry) Barry Today
      • (Bridgend) Bridgend and Porthcawl Gem
      • (Caerphilly) Caerphilly Observer
      • (Carmarthenshire) Carmarthenshire News Online
      • (Deeside) Deeside.com
      • (Denbighshire) Denbighshire Free Press
      • (Monmouthshire) Monmouthshire Beacon
      • (Pembrokeshire) Western Telegraph
      • (Rhyl) Rhyl Journal
      • (Tenby) Tenby Observer
      • (Wrexham) Wrexham.com
  • News aggregators (ensure proper formatting of search, limiting to English, exclusions if needed, use with caution)
  • Standard history or scientific studies of the area (use caution, may be outdated, irrelevant or by a non-native English speaker)
    • Cambridge Histories
    • Oxford dictionaries
  • Individual books (caution, looked for accuracy, bias or appropriateness, may use historical names for context)
  • Google Scholar (set proper parameters)
    • Existing name
    • Name 1
    • Name n
  • Google Books (set proper parameters)
    • Existing name
    • Name 1
    • Name n
  • Google Ngram Viewer (to 2019)
    • Existing name
    • Name 1
    • Name n
  • Google Search (set proper parameters)
    • Existing name
    • Name 1
    • Name n
  • Bing Search (set proper parameters) (less reliable)
    • Existing name
    • Name 1
    • Name n
  • Organisations
    • Legislation
    • Official bodies
    • UK Government
    • UK agencies
      • Relevant UK Government department
      • Relevant UK executive agency
      • Visit Britain
      • UK Parliamentary committees
    • Welsh Government
    • Visit Wales
    • Welsh devolved agencies
      • Relevant Welsh Government directorate
      • Relevant Welsh Government sponsored body or managed organisation
      • Cadw or RCHAMW
      • Natural Resources Wales
    • Regional bodies
      • Regional economic organisation
      • Regional tourism organisation
      • Regional transport organisation
    • Local bodies (not news media, they are classed above)
    • Local council
    • Local community council
    • Local tourism board
    • Other bodies
      • National trust
      • Relevant charity

Notes

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  1. ^ This refers to a sudden move of multiple names at Wicipedia with little discussion, and by an editor banned from Wikipedia, possibly agenda-based on this article. I was also attacked by editors there for being "anti-Welsh" because I wanted to clarify that a Welsh place-name was not officially recognised by the Welsh Government, council or WLC, and the random move was based on an article on forgotten but not necessarily used names.
  2. ^ An indepth, review of any names.

Maintenance

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To enforce standard practice, searching for use of alternative names, clearly not the common name (yet). The situation would be reversed, implenting these names if a RM is successful. Per MOS:GEO we should use the article's title if referring directly to the subject, except in certain contexts such as historical.

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