Template talk:Turkish elections/Archive 1

Archive 1

1982 referendum

This does not belong in the Presidential elections row. The new constitution contained some transitional provisions marking Evren as interim President for several years, but that's not the same thing as a presidential election. It is listed as a referendum in the Nohlen book it's referenced to, as well as academic sources like this. The 2014 one is the first direct election in the country's history. Furthermore, the additional text in the row makes it look appalling. Number 57 19:34, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Ok how about this [1]? Kavas (talk) 02:08, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

That was an example of a simple yes or no referendum on the presidential candidacy of a single candidate put forward by Parliament - these were commonly used in Egypt and Iraq and continue to be used in Syria, and could also accurately be described as elections (as they were here, and are in the case of Syria. There was no other matter on the ballot. What we are discussing here is a referendum on a new constitution with some transitional provisions that named someone as interim President – a completely different matter. Number 57 06:51, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

interim President? who? Kavas (talk) 13:32, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Evren. He was not elected president (as the article wrongly claims at present). He was named as interim president for a fixed length of time in the new constitution that was being voted on. Number 57 15:08, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Wrong. See the 1982 referendum text in Turkish please. Kavas (talk) 14:48, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Here:

"Geçici Hükümler[düzenle]

Geçici Madde 1.- Anayasanın halkoylaması sonucu, Türkiye Cumhuriyeti Anayasası olarak kabul edildiğinin usulünce ilânı ile birlikte, halkoylaması tarihindeki Millî Güvenlik Konseyi Başkanı ve Devlet Başkanı, Cumhurbaşkanı sıfatını kazanarak, yedi yıllık bir dönem için, Anayasa ile Cumhurbaşkanına tanınan görevleri yerine getirir ve yetkileri kullanır. 18 Eylül 1980 tarihinde Devlet Başkanı olarak içtiği and yürürlükte kalır. Yedi yıllık sürenin sonunda Cumhurbaşkanlığı seçimi Anayasada öngörülen hükümlere göre yapılır. Cumhurbaşkanı, ilk genel seçimler sonucu Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisi toplanıp; Başkanlık Divanı oluşuncaya kadar, 12 Aralık 1980 gün ve 2356 sayılı Kanunla teşekkül etmiş olan MilIî Güvenlik Konseyinin Başkanlığını da yürütür. İlk milletvekili genel seçimleri sonunda Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisi toplanıp göreve başlayıncaya kadar geçecek süre içinde, Cumhurbaşkanlığının herhangi bir surette boşalması halinde, Millî Güvenlik Konseyinin en kıdemli üyesi, Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisi toplanıp Anayasaya göre yeni Cumhurbaşkanını seçinceye kadar, Cumhurbaşkanına vekâlet eder ve O'nun Anayasadaki bütün görevlerini yerine getirir ve yetkilerini kullanır. Geçici Madde 2.- 12 Aralık 1980 gün ve 2356 sayılı Kanunla kuruluşu gösterilen Millî Güvenlik Konseyi, Anayasaya dayalı olarak hazırlanacak Siyasi Partiler Kanunu ile Seçim Kanununa göre yapılacak ilk genel seçimler sonucu Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisi toplanıp Başkanlık Divanını oluşturuncaya kadar 2324 sayılı Anayasa Düzeni Hakkında Kanun ve 2485 sayılı Kurucu Meclis Hakkında Kanunlara göre görevlerini devam ettirir. Anayasanın kabulünden sonra 2356 sayılı Kanunun 3 üncü maddesindeki Millî Güvenlik Konseyi Üyeliklerinden birisinin herhangi bir nedenle boşalması halinde doldurulması usulüne ilişkin hüküm uygulanmaz. Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisi toplanıp göreve başladıktan sonra, Millî Güvenlik Konseyi, altı yıllık bir süre için Cumhurbaşkanlığı Konseyi haline dönüşür ve Millî Güvenlik Konseyi Üyeleri, Cumhurbaşkanlığı Konseyi Üyesi sıfatını alırlar. Millî Güvenlik Konseyi üyesi olarak 18 Eylül 1980 tarihinde içtikleri and yürürlükte kalır. Cumhurbaşkanlığı Konseyi Üyeleri, Anayasada Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisi üyelerinin haiz bulundukları özlük hakları ile dokunulmazlığına sahip olurlar. Altı yıllık süre sonunda Cumhurbaşkanlığı Konseyinin hukuki varlığı sona erer. Cumhurbaşkanlığı Konseyinin görevleri şunlardır : a)Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisince kabul edilerek Cumhurbaşkanlığına gönderilen, Anayasada yazılı temel hak ve hürriyetlere ve ödevlere, lâiklik ilkesine, Atatürk inkılâplarının, millî güvenliğin ve kamu düzeninin korunmasına, Türkiye Radyo Televizyon Kurumuna, Milletlerarası andlaşmalara, dış ülkelere silahlı kuvvet gönderilmesine ve yabancı kuvvetlerin Türkiye’ye kabulüne, olağanüstü yönetime, sıkıyönetim ve savaş haline dair kanunlar ile Cumhurbaşkanınca gerekli görülen diğer kanunları Cumhurbaşkanına tanınan onbeş günlük sürenin ilk on günü içinde incelemek; b) Cumhurbaşkanının istemi ve tespit edeceği süre içinde :Milletvekili genel seçimlerinin yenilenmesine, olağanüstü yönetim yetkisinin kullanılmasına ve alınacak tedbirlere, Türkiye Radyo Televizyon Kurumunun yönetim ve gözetimine, gençliğin yetiştirilmesine ve Diyanet İşlerinin düzenlenmesine ilişkin konuları incelemek ve görüş bildirmek; c) Cumhurbaşkanının istemine göre, iç ve dış güvenlik ile gerekli görülen diğer konularda inceleme ve araştırma yapmak ve sonuçlarını Cumhurbaşkanına sunmak. Geçici Madde 3.- Anayasaya göre yapılacak ilk milletvekili genel seçimi sonucunda Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisi toplanıp, Başkanlık Divanını oluşturması ile birlikte : a) 27 Ekim 1980 gün ve 2324 sayılı Anayasa Düzeni Hakkında Kanun, b) 12 Aralık 1980 gün ve 2356 sayılı Milli Güvenlik Konseyi Hakkında Kanun, c) 29 Haziran 1981 gün ve 2485 sayılı Kurucu Meclis Hakkında Kanun, Yürürlükten kalkar ve Millî Güvenlik Konseyi ile Danışma Meclisinin hukukî varlıkları sona erer. Geçici Madde 4.- ( Mülga : 17/5/1987 tarihli ve 3361 ve 23.5.1987 tarihli 3376 numaralı kanunlar gereğince, 6 Eylül 1987 tarihinde yapılan halkoylaması sonucunda yürürlükten kalkmıştır. Halkoylaması sonucunun yayımlandığı Resmî Gazete: 12.09.1987-19572) Geçici Madde 5.- Yapılacak ilk milletvekili genel seçimi sonucunun Yüksek Seçim Kurulunca ilânını takip eden onuncu gün, Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisi Ankara’da, Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisi binasında, saat 15.00’de kendiliğinden toplanır. Bu toplantıya en yaşlı Milletvekili Başkanlık eder. Bu toplantıda milletvekilleri andiçerler. Geçici Madde 6.- Anayasaya göre kurulan Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisinin toplantı ve çalışmaları için kendi içtüzükleri yapılıncaya kadar, Millet Meclisinin 12 Eylül 1980 tarihinden önce yürürlükte olan İçtüzüğünün, Anayasaya aykırı olmayan hükümleri uygulanır. Geçici Madde 7.- İlk milletvekili genel seçimi sonunda, Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisi toplanıp, yeni Bakanlar Kurulu kuruluncaya kadar, iş başında olan Bakanlar Kurulunun görevi devam eder. Geçici Madde 8.- Anayasa ile kabul edilmiş olan yeni organ, kurum ve kurulların kuruluş, görev, yetki ve işleyişleri ile ilgili kanunlarla, Anayasada konulması veya değiştirilmesi öngörülen diğer kanunlar, Anayasanın kabulünden başlayarak Kurucu Meclisin görev süresi içerisinde, bu süre içerisinde yetiştirilemeyenler, seçimle gelen Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisinin ilk toplantısını izleyen bir yıl sonuna kadar çıkartılır. Geçici Madde 9.- İlk genel seçimler sonucu toplanacak Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisinin Başkanlık Divanı kurulduktan sonra altı yıllık süre içinde yapılacak Anayasa değişikliklerini Cumhurbaşkanı, Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisine geri gönderebilir. Bu takdirde Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisinin geri gönderilen Anayasa değişikliği hakkındaki kanunu, aynen kabul edip tekrar Cumhurbaşkanına gönderebilmesi, üye tamsayısının dörtte üç çoğunluğunun oyu ile mümkün olabilir. Geçici Madde 10.- Mahallî idare seçimleri en geç Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisinin ilk toplantısını izleyen bir yıl içinde yapılır. Geçici Madde 11.- Anayasanın halkoyu ile kabul edildiği tarihte Anayasa Mahkemesi asıl ve yedek üyesi olanların kadroları ile görevleri devam eder. Bunlardan Anayasa Mahkemesince belli görevlere seçilenlerin bu suretle kazanmış oldukları sıfatları saklı kalır. Anayasa Mahkemesi asıl üye sayısı onbire ininceye kadar boşalan asıl üye kadrosuna, asıl ve yedek üye sayısı toplamı onbeşe ininceye kadar da boşalan yedek üye kadrosuna seçim yapılmaz. Anayasa Mahkemesinin yeni düzenlemeye intibakı sağlanıncaya kadar asıl üye sayısının onbirden, asıl ve yedek üye sayıları toplamının onbeşden aşağı düşmesi nedeniyle yapılacak seçimlerde bu Anayasanın kabul ettiği esasa ve sıraya uyulur. Anayasa Mahkemesi asıl üye sayısı onbire ininceye kadar dava ve işlerde 22 Nisan 1962 gün ve 44 sayılı Kanunun öngördüğü toplanma yeter sayısı uygulanır. Geçici Madde 12.- 13 Mayıs 1981 gün ve 2461 sayılı Hâkimler ve Savcılar Yüksek Kurulu Kanununun geçici 1 inci maddesi uyarınca Yargıtay ve Danıştaydan Kurulun asıl ve yedek üyeliğine; 1730 sayılı Yargıtay Kanununa 25 Haziran 1981 gün ve 2483 sayılı Kanunla eklenen geçici madde uyarınca Cumhuriyet Başsavcılığı ile Cumhuriyet Başsavcıvekilliğine; 6 Ocak 1982 gün ve 2575 sayılı Danıştay Kanununun geçici 14 üncü maddesinin ikinci fıkrası uyarınca Danıştay Başkanlığına, Başsavcılığına, başkanvekilliklerine ve daire başkanlıklarına, Devlet Başkanınca seçilmiş bulunanlar, seçildikleri dönem için bu görevlerine devam ederler. 6 Ocak 1982 gün ve 2576 sayılı Kanunun geçici maddelerinin idarî mahkemeler Başkan ve üyeliklerine atamalara ilişkin hükümleri de saklıdır. Geçici Madde 13.- Hâkimler ve Savcılar Yüksek Kuruluna Yargıtaydan seçilmesi gereken bir asıl ve bir yedek üyenin seçimleri Anayasa'nın yürürlüğe girdiği tarihi izleyen yirmi gün içinde yapılır. Seçilen üyeler göreve başlayıncaya kadar Kurul, toplantı yeter sayısını oluşturacak yedek üyenin katılmasıyla çalışmalarını yapar. Geçici Madde 14.- Sendikaların gelirlerini Devlet bankalarında muhafaza etmelerine ilişkin yükümlülükleri, Anayasanın yürürlüğe girdiği tarihten itibaren en geç iki yıl içinde yerine getirilir. Geçici Madde 15.- 12 Eylül 1980 tarihinden, ilk genel seçimler sonucu toplanacak Türkiye Büyük Millet Meclisinin Başkanlık Divanını oluşturuncaya kadar geçecek süre içinde, yasama ve yürütme yetkilerini Türk milleti adına kullanan, 2356 sayılı Kanunla kurulu Millî Güvenlik Konseyinin, bu Konseyin yönetimi döneminde kurulmuş hükümetlerin, 2485 sayılı Kurucu Meclis Hakkında Kanunla görev ifa eden Danışma Meclisinin her türlü karar ve tasarruflarından dolayı haklarında cezaî, malî veya hukukî sorumluluk iddiası ileri sürülemez ve bu maksatla herhangi bir yargı merciine başvurulamaz. Bu karar ve tasarrufların idarece veya yetkili kılınmış organ, merci ve görevlilerce uygulanmasından dolayı, karar alanlar, tasarrufta bulunanlar ve uygulayanlar hakkında da yukarıdaki fıkra hükümleri uygulanır.

(Son fıkra mülga : 03.10.2001 – 4709/34 md.) Geçici Madde 16.- Anayasanın halkoylamasına ilişkin oy verme kütüğünde ve sandık listesinde kaydı ve oy kullanma yeterliği bulunduğu halde hukukî veya fiilî herhangi bir mazereti olmaksızın halkoylamasına katılmayanlar, Anayasanın halkoylamasını takip eden beş yıl içinde yapılacak genel ve ara seçimleri ile mahallî seçimlere ve diğer halkoylamalarına katılamazlar, seçimlerde aday olamazlar."

— Geçici Madde 15

Kavas (talk) 14:52, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

translation (in Wikisource) Part Six: Provisional Articles

"PROVISIONAL ARTICLE 1. On the proclamation, under lawful procedure, of the adoption by referendum of the Constitution as the Constitution of the Republic of Turkey, the Chairman of the Council of National Security and Head of State at the time of the referendum, shall assume the title of President of the Republic and shall exercise the Constitutional functions and powers of the President of the Republic for a period of seven years. The oath taken as Head of State on 18 September 1980, shall remain valid. At the end of the period of seven years the election for the Presidency of the Republic shall be held in accordance with the provisions set forth in the Constitution.

The President of the Republic shall also hold the chairmanship of the Council of National Security formed on 12 December 1980, under Act No. 2356, until the convening of the Turkish Grand National Assembly and the formation of the Bureau of the Assembly following the first general elections. If the Presidency of the Republic falls vacant for any reason before the Turkish Grand National Assembly convenes and assumes its functions at the end of the first general elections, the most senior member of the National Security Council shall act as President of the Republic and shall exercise all his constitutional functions and powers until the convening of the Turkish Grand National Assembly and its election of a new President of the Republic in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution. PROVISIONAL ARTICLE 2. The Council of National Security formed on 12 December 1980 under Act No. 2356 shall continue to exercise its functions under Act No. 2324 on the Constitutional Order and Act No. 2485 on the Constituent Assembly until the convening of the Turkish Grand National Assembly and the formation of the Bureau of the Assembly following the first general elections held under the Political Parties Act and the Elections Act prepared in accordance with the Constitution. After the adoption of the Constitution, Article 3 of Act No. 2356 relating to the procedure for winning a seat on the Council of National Security which falls vacant for any reason, shall cease to apply. After the Turkish Grand National Assembly has convened and assumed its functions, the Council of National Security shall become the Presidential Council for a period of six years, and the members of the Council of National Security shall acquire the title of members of the Presidential Council. The oath they took on 18 September 1980, as members of the Council of National Security shall remain valid. Members of the Presidential Council shall enjoy the rights and immunities conferred by the Constitution on members of the Turkish Grand National Assembly. The legal existence of the Presidential Council shall terminate on the expiry of the period of six years. The functions of the Presidential Council shall be as follows: a. to examine laws adopted by the Turkish Grand National Assembly and submitted to the President of the Republic concerning: the fundamental rights and freedoms and duties, the principle of secularism, the preservation of the reforms of Atatürk, national security and public order set forth in the Constitution, the Turkish Radio and Television Corporation, international treaties, the sending of Armed Forces to foreign countries and the stationing of foreign forces in Turkey, emergency rule, martial law and the state of war, and other laws deemed necessary by the President of the Republic, within the first ten days of the period of fifteen days granted to the President of the Republic for his consideration; b. on the request of the President of the Republic and within the period specified by him: to consider and give an opinion on matters relating to the holding of new general elections, the exercise of emergency powers and the measures to be taken during a state of emergency, the management and supervision of the Turkish Radio and Television Corporation, the training of the youth and the conduct of religious affairs; c. According to the request of the President of the Republic, to consider and investigate matters relating to internal or external security and such other matters as are deemed necessary, and to submit its findings to the President of the Republic. PROVISIONAL ARTICLE 3. With the convening of the Turkish Grand National Assembly and the formation of the Bureau of the Assembly following the first general elections held in accordance with the Constitution: a. Act No. 2324 of 27 October 1980 on the Constitutional Order; b. Act No. 2356 of 12 December 1980 on the Council of National Security; c. Act No. 2485 of 29 June 1981 on the Constituent Assembly, shall cease to have effect and the legal existence of the Council of National Security and the Consultative Assembly shall terminate. PROVISIONAL ARTICLE 4. (Repealed on May 17, 1987) PROVISIONAL ARTICLE 5. On the tenth day following proclamation by the Supreme Election Council of the results of the first general elections, the Turkish Grand National Assembly shall convene of its own accord at the premises of the Turkish Grand National Assembly in Ankara at 15.00 hours. The eldest deputy shall take the chair for this session. At this session the deputies shall take their oaths. PROVISIONAL ARTICLE 6. Until the Turkish Grand National Assembly, formed in accordance with the Constitution, adopts the Rules of Procedure which shall govern its sessions and proceedings, those provisions of the Rules of Procedure of the National Assembly which were in force before 12 September, 1980, and which are not contrary to the Constitution shall apply. PROVISIONAL ARTICLE 7. The present Council of Ministers shall continue in office until the convening of the Turkish Grand National Assembly and the formation of the new Council of Ministers following the first general elections. PROVISIONAL ARTICLE 8. Legislation relating to the organisation, duties, powers and functioning of the new organs, institutions and agencies established under the Constitution and other legislation whose introduction or amendment is provided for in the Constitution, shall be enacted during the period of Constituent Assembly, starting from the date of the adoption of the Constitution; legislation which cannot be dealt with during this period shall be enacted within the year following the first session of the newly elected Turkish Grand National Assembly. PROVISIONAL ARTICLE 9. Within a period of six years following the formation of the Bureau of the Turkish Grand National Assembly which is to convene after the first general elections, the President of the Republic may refer to the Turkish Grand National Assembly for further consideration of any Constitutional amendments adopted by the Assembly. In this case the re-submission of the Constitutional amendment draft in its unchanged form to the President of the Republic by the Turkish Grand National Assembly, is only possible with a three-fourths majority of the votes of the total number of members. PROVISIONAL ARTICLE 10. Local elections shall be held within a year of the first session of the Turkish Grand National Assembly. PROVISIONAL ARTICLE 11. Regular and substitute members of the Constitutional Court who were in office on the date of the adoption by referendum of the Constitution shall continue to hold office and exercise their functions. Those previously elected by the Constitutional Court to specific offices shall retain the status thus acquired. No election shall be held to fill the vacant seats of the regular members of the Constitutional Court until the number of these members falls to eleven, nor shall an election be held to fill the vacant seats of substitute members until the total number of regular and substitute members falls to fifteen. Until the Constitutional Court adapts to the new system, the principles and order of precedence set forth in the Constitution shall be observed in the elections which are to be held because the number of regular members has fallen below eleven, or because the total number of regular and substitute members has fallen below fifteen. Until the number of regular members of the Constitutional Court falls to eleven, the quorum prescribed by Act No. 44 of 22 April 1962, shall be observed in all cases and proceedings. PROVISIONAL ARTICLE 12. Persons appointed by the Head of State as regular and substitute members of the Supreme Council of Judges and Public Prosecutors from among the members of the High Court of Appeals and the Council of State under Provisional Article 1 of Act No. 2461 of 13 May 1981, on the Supreme Council of Judges and Public Prosecutors; as chief public prosecutor and deputy chief public prosecutor in accordance with the Provisional Article appended to Act No. 1730 on the High Court of Appeals under Act No. 2483 of 25 June 1981; and as president, chief public prosecutor, deputy presidents and heads of division of the Council of State under Provisional Article 14, paragraph 2 of Act No. 2576 of 6 January 1982 on the Council of State shall continue to exercise their functions until the end of the term of office for which they were elected. The Provisions of the Provisional Articles of Act No. 2576 of 6 January 1982, which concern the appointment of the presidents and members of Administrative Courts shall also remain in force. PROVISIONAL ARTICLE 13. The elections of one regular and one substitute member to be elected to the Supreme Council of Judges and Public Prosecutors from among the members of the High Court of Appeals shall take place within twenty days of the entry into force of the Constitution. Until the assumption of office by the elected members, the quorum for meetings of the Council shall be met with the participation of substitute members. PROVISIONAL ARTICLE 14. The obligation of the labour unions to deposit their revenues in the state banks shall be fulfilled within two years of the entry into force of the Constitution, at the latest. PROVISIONAL ARTICLE 15. No allegation of criminal, financial or legal responsibility shall be made, nor shall an application be filed with a court for this purpose in respect of any decisions or measures whatsoever taken by: the Council of National Security formed under Act No. 2356 which will have exercised legislative and executive power on behalf of the Turkish Nation from 12 September 1980 to the date of the formation of the Bureau of the Turkish Grand National Assembly which is to convene following the first general elections; the governments formed during the term of office of the Council, or the Consultative Assembly which has exercised its functions under Act No. 2485 on the Constituent Assembly. The provisions of the above paragraphs shall also apply in respect of persons who have taken decisions and adopted or implemented measures as part of the implementation of such decisions and measures by the administration or by the competent organs, authorities and officials. PROVISIONAL ARTICLE 16. Persons who fail to participate in the referendum on the Constitution without valid legal or actual reasons despite being entitled to vote and being included in the register of electors and the polling station register compiled for the referendum, shall neither participate nor stand for election in general elections, by-elections, local elections or referendums for a period of five years following the referendum on the Constitution. PROVISIONAL ARTICLE OF THE LAW NO.4709 (The Law No.4709 amends some of the articles of the Constitution) A) The last paragraph added to the Article 67 of the Constitution by Article 24 of this Law No.4709 shall not be implemented at the first general election to be held after this Law No.4709 goes into effect. B) The amendments made by Article 28 of this Law No.4709 to Article 87 of the Constitution shall not be implemented on those who perpetrate the acts described in Article 14 of the Constitution, before this Law No.4709 goes into effect.

This Law No.4709 goes into effect at the date of its issue and in case of submission to referendum, it shall be voted on as a whole."

— Geçici Madde 15 translation

Kavas (talk) 14:55, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Please show "interim president" in the Turkish text or in its translation. Kavas (talk) 14:56, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Quibbling over terminology is going to get you nowhere. The referendum was about the new constitution, as you've just proved. One of its provisions was naming Evren as President for a certain length of time, which is not the same thing as a presidential election. Number 57 23:12, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Every president is named as president for a certain length of time, so how does it prove your idea that Evren is an "interim president"?Kavas (talk) 11:11, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Because he wasn't elected - he was named President for a certain length of time by a transitional provision in a new constitution. Regardless of how you want to quibble about what terminology to describe him, this was not a presidential election. Number 57 11:32, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

His presidency is voted in that referendum and you claim Evren is an interim president and Mubarak isn't, but Mubarak is also chosen for a "certain length of time" in referendums. Kavas (talk) 11:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

You fail to show why 1982 referendum is different than Egyptian_referendum,_1956 I try to solve the inconsistency in election template for different countries. Kavas (talk) 11:44, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

In Egyptian referendum, 1956, voters were able to say "no" for president but "yes" for "constitution", but in Turkish referendum, 1982, voters werent able to approve "constitution" while saying "no" to Evren. But, other than this, both referendums are "constitution" + "presidency" referendums. Kavas (talk) 11:50, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I am not "failing to show why" it is different - you haven't mentioned it before or given me a chance to! But now I shall: The Egyptian referendum had two separate votes - one for President and one for the new constitution. As far as I can see, there is only one set of results in this vote - for the constitution. No source I have shows two separate votes. See the difference between Egypt (two votes on 23 June 1956 - one for constitution and one for President) and Turkey (one vote on 7 November - for the constitution). If you can provide the second set of results for the vote on Evren as President I will gladly include them. Number 57 12:08, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

They're not different fundamentally, they're constitution + presidency referendums. I hold the view that voting for two different things (constitution + presidency) with one vote does not change the fundamental of this referendum as being used for approving presidency of Evren. Besides, your former opposition was Evren was "interim" or "for a certain length of time" president, I see you no longer hold it as you say your only opposition is that there wasn't a second set of votes in the referendum. Kavas (talk) 12:19, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

If, and only if, there was a separate vote on Evren, that is a presidential election. However, there is no proof this actually happened. Number 57 12:23, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

So you oppose for considering 1982 referendum as also being a "presidential confirmation referendum" for "no separate vote on Evren". Yes?Kavas (talk) 12:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

If there was no separate vote on Evren, then it was not a presidential confirmation referendum, it was a constitutional referendum. It's not a case of opposing or supporting, it's just a fact or not. Number 57 13:12, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I reject it's a "fact", it's your POV. Kavas (talk) 13:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

No, it's a fact. The new constitution had many aspects to it, only one of which was Evren being President - we cannot single that out. Number 57 13:46, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

"If there was no separate vote on Evren, then it was not a presidential confirmation referendum" isn't a fact. "no separate vote on Evren" is a fact. " The new constitution had many aspects to it, only one of which was Evren being President" is a fact. Kavas (talk) 13:49, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid that "If there was no separate vote on Evren, then it was not a presidential confirmation referendum" is a fact. Otherwise one could argue it was a referendum on the new voting arrangements for Parliament of whatever else was changed. However, I'm glad you finally understand it wasn't a vote specifically on Evren. Cheers, Number 57 13:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I wrote it at 11:50, 14 July 2013 (UTC):"voters werent able to approve "constitution" while saying "no" to Evren", I reject that I was unaware of "it wasn't a vote specifically on Evren", as I always said it was "also" a vote on him.Kavas (talk) 13:58, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

It was not "also" a vote on him. It was a vote on a constitution which contained some temporary provisions regarding him. Anyway, we are going round in circles, so I have asked an editor with experience of these templates for a third opinion. Number 57 14:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

It's the only the referendum that approved presidency and the new "constitution" within a single vote.

Some sources: 1. "General Evren was elected President by popular vote only by way of a provisional article of the Constitution" 2. "the 1982 constitutional referendum was combined with the election of the President of the Republic. A "yes" vote for the constitution was also an endorsement of the presidency of Evren (the sole candidate) for a seven year period." 3. "The referendum simultaneously approved General Evren as president for a 7-year term."

Kavas (talk) 14:39, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Yet again: Evren being President was part of the constitution, and the vote was on the constitution. One could also say it was a vote on any one of the other issues changed or set in the new constitution. If you want sources, here are several that say it was only a constitutional referendum: [2][3][4] Number 57 14:50, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Number_57 – this was a constitutional referendum, not a presidential election. —Nightstallion 15:02, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

My view is that it's constitutional referendum+ presidential confirmation referendum. I have provided 4 sources for it. Kavas (talk) 15:09, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

And I have provided sources that merely describe it as a constitutional referendum. We could both spend all day trawling Google for sources that back up our "side" of the argument, but that would be a waste of everyone's time. When there are sources stating different things, we need to use common sense to decide which ones to follow. We have had a third opinion now, so I hope we can bring this debate to a close? Number 57 15:15, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Number 57 found those sources:

1. "In the transitional provisions of General Kenan Evren is determined the first president until 1989" [5] 2. No discussion of Evren or presidency. [6] 3. "The 1982 constitution also included a set of provisional articles, the first of which stipulated that the chair of the NSC and head of state would become president of the republic for seven years following approval of the constitution in a referendum."[7] They are not stating different things. The 2nd source didn't include information on "presidential determination" ,which doesn't make it as supporting your view. The 1st and 3rd sources use different words ("determine") & ("would become president") for "presidential confirmation".Kavas (talk) 15:19, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

And how can you equate a 2 sentence Swiss source with Prof. Özbudun's book on Turkish constitutions history? Kavas (talk) 15:22, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

"back up our "side" of the argument"? You said "it is not also a presidential confirmation referendum" isn't argument but a denial of a certain fact. Kavas (talk) 15:26, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

As mentioned above, I have no desire to get bogged down in wordplay and wikilawyering. Anyway, I'm not sure what more I can add to this. There was a referendum on a constitution in 1982. The new constitution contained numerous provisions, one of which determined that Evren was to be president until 1989. It was not a referendum on his presidency - it was on the whole package, of which this was one part. If there had been a separate question on his presidency like the 1956 referendum in Egypt, then you would be perfectly justified in labelling it as both, and I would support that. However there was only one question - on the constitution. Number 57 15:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

"It was not a referendum on his presidency - it was on the whole package, of which this was one part." This means 1982 referendum is also a determination of Evren's presidency by popular vote. Kavas (talk) 15:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

It was not a determination of his presidency – it was a vote on the constitution. I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat this - the constitution contained numerous aspects, and it was a single yes or no vote on all of them - a constitutional referendum. Number 57 15:40, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

You say "It was not also a determination of his presidency" and "determination of his presidency was one aspect of it". Kavas (talk) 15:44, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Please don't turn this into a tiresome wordplay discussion. The referendum was not a determination of his presidency in the same way that it was not a referendum on the setup of the new parliament - it was a referendum on a new constitution that contained many aspects. Number 57 16:07, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't turn this into a tiresome wordplay discussion, I'm showing contradictions. You reject "The referendum was not also a determination of his presidency" since "determination of his presidency" is part of a constitutional referendum. Kavas (talk) 16:21, 14 July 2013 (UTC)