Template talk:Conservatism US

What's the criteria for book inclusion?

The inclusion of God and Man at Yale, A Choice Not an Echo, and The Closing of the American Mind I understand. These are extremely well-known, still in print, and referenced even today. Some of the others, though, left me scratching my head. Hillbilly Elegy? The Benedict Option? You might as well go back to including It Take a Family and other forgettable election-season memoirs and how-tos that get churned out, chewed up, and forgotten. I think if this template is going to have a list of works, they should be self-evidently recognizable as bastions of argument and philosophy—the kinds of books that leave everyone both speechless and scrambling for some way to react to it. It doesn't have to be universally acclaimed, but it shouldn't be something that you go "what was that book about, again?" five years after you read it. Honestly, I don't think any works within the last 25 years should be included unless they meet that criteria. -- Veggies (talk) 23:29, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Add Murray Rothbard to the "Intellectuals" list

Add Rothbard to the Intellectuals list, OR replace Hoppe with Rothbard. Rothbard should be part of the "Intellectuals" list, if necessary replacing Hoppe. Rothbard was Hoppe's mentor and it is straightforward to prove that he has exerted much more intellectual and institutional relevance than Hoppe. If only one of the two were to be included in the intellectual's list, it's Rothbard. 189.93.247.59 (talk) 18:58, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I tend to agree that if Hoppe is on the list, Rothbard belongs there too. OTOH, I could argue that neither of them belong as I more associate them with libertarianism, anarcho-capitalism--and specifically the Austrian school--than I do American conservatism. That said, libertarian conservatism is under the "schools" section of this template, so it's not a stretch. There was an earlier discussion on this page about bloat, so we might be in one or the other territory, but I have only passing familiarity with either of them--not enough to choose.

TL;DR: I think this change requires consensus to make, and technically I should close the request on that basis. But I'll leave it open for a bit to attract other opinions. Xan747 (talk) 19:51, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

@Xan747 is absolutely right that Rothbard is a libertarian, not a conservative. The most prominent American conservative intellectual, Russell Kirk, drew clear distinctions between the two ideologies in Libertarians: Chirping Sectaries (1981):

"What else do conservatives and libertarians profess in common? The answer to that question is simple: nothing. Nor will they ever. To talk of forming a league or coalition between these two is like advocating a union of ice and fire."
"Conservatives have no intention of compromising with socialists, but even such an alliance, ridiculous though it would be, is more conceivable than the coalition of conservatives and libertarians."
"When heaven and earth have passed away, perhaps the conservative mind and the libertarian mind may be joined in synthesis, but not until then."

Hoppe, however, is a classical conservative on many issues: he preaches family values, speaks of a "natural aristocracy," thinks monarchism is superior to majoritarianism, criticizes postmodern liberal norms etc. And unlike Rothbard, he was influenced by conservative philosophers such as Karl Ludwig von Haller and Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn. Trakking (talk) 20:18, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

• No, do not add. Rothbard represents the very essence of Libertarianism in the United States (and worldwide). There already exists a perfectly good info-box template (Libertarianism in the US) for people like Rothbard and his friends. We should be taking steps to separate Libertarianism from Conservatism however we can, rather than mixing them up. Yes, there is some (perhaps in some cases, a good bit) of overlap (here and there). I can understand the appeal of Rothbard as being somehow conservative, but he is not really at all what is considered conservative for the United States. Rather than facilitating mixing up political philosophies to the point that there are only two polar opposites (Liberalism and Conservatism) we should be trying to separate out different political philosophies as much as we can. Separating the philosophies serves the encyclopedic readership much more so than fixing everything and everyone into only two polar opposite philosophies. In my view, there is already a good bit of philosophical mixup already within the this template (Conservatism in the US). Adding Rothbard to this template is like adding Adolf Hitler to this template as an intellectual. Using this add-Rothbard thinking, since Adolf Hitler shared one or two points with conservatism (like an element of nationalism), he should therefore be added to the conservatism (in the US) template. That is ridiculous thinking. Yes, conservatism already has a -- so-called -- school of libertarianism within it. But totally conflating all of Libertarianism with Conservatism (by including the central figure of Libertarianism into Conservatism) is over-the-top counterproductive to readership understanding of the different philosophies. Rothbard is already in the template Libertarianism in the US. That is where he belongs and I think that is where he should exclusively stay. --L.Smithfield (talk) 21:13, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
•  Not done: Closing request on the basis there are objections, which precludes the edit request process. A consensus or compromise will be needed to implement this material. —Sirdog (talk) 12:22, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 October 2023

“Add Supreme Court Justice Pierce Butler To The List Of Jurists” 24.179.241.58 (talk) 00:43, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done by GreenLoeb. Thanks, all. Anon126 (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 01:56, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

"Jurist"

It's apparently "controversial" to say Leonard Leo, a man who has never tried a case or sat on a bench, is accurately described as a "jurist" and trying to find a broader term like "legal movement" is something worth reverting. Therequiembellishere (talk) 23:17, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

And Ed Meese described as a "jurist"?? Honestly think he'd be surprised by that. Therequiembellishere (talk) 23:18, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

A jurist is an expert at law, a person who is educated in law. What makes you believe these people do not qualify for the term? Trakking (talk) 04:15, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Movement conservatism pushing a political agenda through the court system is not legal expertise or scholarship, and it's insulting to legal scholarship to say it is. Therequiembellishere (talk) 13:35, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

"A person educated in the law" is every lawyer ever. Every lawyer is decidedly not a jurist. Therequiembellishere (talk) 13:36, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

why not fuentes?

just asking because i intend to add him StrongALPHA (talk) 12:14, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Fuentes is a very fringe person. He does not sympathize with American conservatism. Trakking (talk) 12:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Removal of Jackson Hinkle

Now another person has added 24-year-old Jackson Hinkle, who is described as a communist pro-Russian troll in his article. (I will assume it is not one user making this addition with a sock puppet.) I am not allowed to revert more than once. @GreenLoeb: Could you please make the reversion? Trakking (talk) 11:00, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Happy to help, I have reverted this addition, which to me seems disingenuous and nonconstructive. GreenLoeb (talk) 17:25, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

What happened to WP:AFG? I even checked the last page of edits in case he had already been added. There was no mention as @Trakking failed to reference the individual removed, given that StrongALPHA didn't provide follow WP:FIES which wasn't really factored into WP:REVEXP. The reason I added him is because I added the template to his page [1], because he's an AC so it makes sense to have this.

StrongALPHA hasn't made a single edit on the Hinkle page, so not sure where that came from either. [2]

As for Hinkle, sure he has crank-politics, but is otherwise an American conservative with them, but I do understand if he remains too obscure for now given he only reached notability in the past month or so. I'll leave it at that, maybe someone else will bring it up another time if he continues to gain notability. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 01:01, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I have made several edits on the Jackson Hinkle page, but not very many. StrongALPHA (talk) 08:02, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Add to "intellectuals" section?

• Dolan
• Bozell Jr.
• Lodge
• Meese
• Podhoretz
• Will
• Crichton
• Hazlitt

Biohistorian15 (talk) 14:56, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I am fine with some of your latest reversions, but Repplier is simply too obscure, and Dreher is already included in the Commentator section. Please remove those two from the Intellectual section. Trakking (talk) 16:24, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm opposed to basically all of these. Counting them as intellectuals reduces the word "intellectual" to complete meaninglessness (although maybe doing such a thing is characteristically American; as a people we have never known how to distinguish thought from a sales pitch). My objections:

- Hazlitt is a newspaper publisher; his claim to fame is Economics in One Lesson. He's better understood as a libertarian, and maybe an economist (though I think that title vastly overestimates the cogency of Economics in One Lesson as anything more than bad propaganda for the simpleminded). If he's to be included here, I would put him under activist.

- Meese is primarily a politician. Whatever intellectual contributions he made were minimal. Same goes for Lodge.

- Podhoretz is notable as a commentator. Counting him as an intellectual would do violence to a category that ought to be reserved for thinkers like Harvey Mansfield, Leo Strauss, and so on. The same goes for George Will.

- I am not even sure why Crichton has been suggested, except maybe that he was a climate change skeptic and that George Bush liked his novels. He is a writer of NYT Bestseller pop-fiction, not a thinker, and he should not be included in any categories. The other people you list are already included where they should be.

I'm not really sure that Timothy Cardinal Dolan is important enough to merit inclusion, but I'm fine with keeping him. I would personally put Bozell under commentators, but can see a case being made for intellectuals. GreenLoeb (talk) 18:45, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 May 2024

Request to add Hispanic and Latino conservatism in the United States under the category "Movements" and Anti-Islamism under the category "Principles".

129.126.202.49 (talk) 11:35, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Please clarify why this change is needed. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 11:43, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

"Hispanic and Latino" added. But most of the world is firmly anti-Islamist, which makes the term rather vacuous. Trakking (talk) 12:31, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Add Elon Musk?

Musk, however, may neither perfectly fit in the category of "activists" (in lack of special philanthropy outside of demographics research...) nor the "commentators" one (as Twitter otherwise doesn't suffice either...)

Proposed course of action: add him to both sections (major public figure after all...)

Biohistorian15 (talk) 01:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Compact (American magazine)

It feels a bit oversimplistic to include this magazine in this list, given the sort of eclectic makeup of its founders and contributors. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 05:12, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. Its eclecticism is no argument against its inclusion, but rather a feature of the post 2016 right, which has seen broad interest between opponents of liberalism both right and left in collaborating. Most of Compact’s contributors are right coded, two of their three founders are solidly on the right (and the third founder left in a storm of dissatisfaction because Compact took an editorial line against abortion), and the skepticism of the market that the Compact set embodies is quite frankly where the American right is (thankfully) headed. You can find the exact same eclecticism in American Affairs (indeed, many people who publish in the one are published in the other), which no one has objected to including. GreenLoeb (talk) 11:35, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I feel like we're bridging too far into WP:OR in that analysis. Our personal analysis of who is "right coded" can't be the basis for including a particular periodical in this sidebar, nor can our personal comparison of X periodical to American Affairs be the justification for inclusion here. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 17:40, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I’m not making a “personal comparison”; objectively, both AA and Compact regularly have the same authors. That Compact publishes some Marxists who are allied with the right in the culture war no more makes it irrelevant to this template than does the fact that WSJ publishes pro-homosexual and pro-abortion opinions, or that The Dispatch endorses and drums up support for liberal Democrats. In any case, I would be curious to hear @Trakking’s thoughts, as well as @Biohistorian15, as both are, like me, regular and long-standing contributors to the template. GreenLoeb (talk) 20:28, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Here are some authors published in Compact: Christopher Caldwell (Claremont Institute), Matthew Schmitz (First Things and The American Conservative), Sohrab Ahmari (NY Post), Nathan Pinkoski, Timothy Cardinal Dolan (conservative bishop), Darrel Paul, Dan Hitchens (son of Peter and editor at First Things), John Milbank (progenitor of radical orthodox theology), Dan McCarthy (ISI), Ryszard Legutko (prominent Polish conservative), Marco Rubio, Josh Hawley (US Senator) and Peter Hitchens.

Recent articles have criticized gender ideology and transgender genital mutilation of children, endorsed Trump’s bloodbath comments, criticized EU attempts to suppress right wingers, criticized pandemic social control methods and the biomedical security state, spoken well of Josh Hawley, criticized the crackdown on religious schools by administrative state equity czars, positively reappraised Intelligent Design, spoken well of European right wing populist victories in the EU elections and in Portugal and Spain, heaped disdain on the idea of “white rural rage,” called for immigration restriction, criticized the lawfare being waged against Donald Trump, called for ending support to Ukraine, called for banning pornography, and published an eviscerating review of Judith Butler’s latest book. GreenLoeb (talk) 20:39, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

As explained by GreenLoeb, this magazine predominantly expresses cultural and national forms of conservatism. I am in favor of readding it to the template. Trakking (talk) 21:09, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree with @GreenLoeb as well. Good call. Biohistorian15 (talk) 07:36, 23 June 2024 (UTC)