Template:Did you know nominations/Zoë Porphyrogenita

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:35, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Zoë Porphyrogenita edit

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A mosaic of Empress Zoe

... ~~that five years after Byzantine Empress Zoë Porphyrogenita first married, aged 50, her husband was murdered by her teenage lover, who married Zoë the same day and was crowned emperor the next?~~ Norwich. Byzantium: the Apogee pp. 270–71, 276, 278–79. Garland. Zoe Porphyrogenita (wife of Romanus III, Constantine IX, and Michael IV). Kazhdan. Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium p 2228

Reviewed: Only my third nomination, so no QPQ required, although I have reviewed 2 other DYK articles.

Improved to Good Article status by Gog the Mild (talk). Self-nominated at 19:12, 15 May 2018 (UTC).

Gog the Mild, your hook is certainly vivid. The attribution of the death to Michael IV the Paphlagonian does not have a source in the article; please include a quote form your source that supports the hook statement, or pick another hook.

Earwig finds copyvio (results), but is seems that the first one copied from Wikipedia, and there are only a few sentences in common with the second source (which is one that you cite, so you might have just subconsciously remembered a couple fragments of phrasing). Please look into this and report back.

I found the article somewhat confusing, especially the chronology of the lede. You also have only two sentences on the actual reign, as opposed to the machinations around the transfer of power. I realized that Byzantine politics were like that, but it would be good to hear about what happened to the empire when it wasn't deposing emperors. And what Zoë did when she wasn't marrying, squabbling with her sister, or making ointments. I was also curious as to why Theodora was furious at being recalled from Petrion; you might link to her article's reasons. HLHJ (talk) 01:25, 27 May 2018‎ (UTC)

Hi HLHJ. Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful review. I am just back from a few days holiday and it may be a day or two before I can respond in full. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:21, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

@HLHJ:. Progress report. In no particular order.

Zoe was only a ruling empress for 65 days, so what one can say about their reign is limited. Especially as the two main sources completely disagree and both state that Theodora was the driving force. Zoe, apparently, had become used to her husbands running affairs.
I have deliberately not gone too much into the affairs of the empire. The 65 days aside, Zoe had little influence on them and there is no logical stopping point this side of a book length treatment. During her adult life there were five emperors, plus herself, and major ups and downs in the empire's military, territorial, financial, religious and foreign affairs fortunes. All in the unique Byzantine way. It seemed (far) more confusing than it was worth to try to sketch this in.
Chronology. I have tweaked things a bit. I have also tried to explain some background which I may have been taking for granted - eg her exclusion from power other than through a husband. Hopefully this also explains why Zoe didn't do a lot other than marry, squabble and make ointments.
I have added a (sourced) sentence on Theodora's motives for being "furious". Always difficult to decide how much to say about people who aren't the subject of the narrative. And, frankly, who knows what she was thinking. The chroniclers can only guess and they all had their own agendas and their own narratives to fit things into.
Earwig. Given that it is fresh out of GAN I am surprised. I didn't write this from scratch so it seems that someone may have helpfully cut and pasted. Amended. The only Earwig issues are now on Wikipedia mirror sites.
I have expanded the section on Romanos's death quite a bit and given a summary of the views of each of the contemporary sources. (Psellus is amusing, he writes at length (I haven't quoted this) about the circumstances, clearly convinced that Michael was responsible, but takes a "I wasn't there, maybe three thugs walked in off the street, you have to make your own mind up" attitude.) Not sure if this is sufficient for you to pass the hook; let me know if not.
I still have to proof read all of my changes, so bear with me for a day or two with copy edit issues.
Theodora should be up for GA this week. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:56, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Hello, Gog the Mild, and thank you for the progress report. I'm afraid I can't share your kind assessment of my review; I hadn't realized that she only reigned a few months, and it does seem that her life was remarkably unconnected from the Empire, and it doesn't seem as if Psallus actually gives reasons for Theodora's fury, either (tho as reactions go, it was a safe political bet in a pretty unstable situation). My tone somehow came out rather impolite, too. Your response, on the other hand, was worthy of your byname.

I have made some comments on the talk page. Hooks... do you think that any of these are any good?

ALT1:... that ...five years after Byzantine Empress Zoë Porphyrogenita first married, aged 50, her husband was (probably) murdered by her teenage lover, whom she married the same day and had crowned emperor the next? Source:Norwich. Byzantium: the Apogee pp. 270–71, 276, 278–79. Garland. Zoe Porphyrogenita (wife of Romanus III, Constantine IX, and Michael IV). Kazhdan. Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium p 2228

ALT3:... that ...five years after Byzantine Empress Zoë Porphyrogenita first married, aged ~50, her husband died under suspicious circumstances, and she married her teenage lover the same day and had him crowned emperor the next?

ALT4:... that ...Byzantine Empress Zoë Porphyrogenita first married aged ~50 (three days before the death of her father), lived in an open marriage until her husband died in suspicious circumstances, married her teenage lover the same day, had him crowned emperor the next, was imprisoned by him until his death, was exiled by his successor and nephew, was restored by a popular revolt, and ruled with her sister before temporarily ousting her from power and marrying a former lover? (maximum drama version)

@HLHJ:.ALT4 - you forgot the beauty parade of her former fiancés and lovers to pick her third husband! And that third husband's mistresses and their official positions and... and... As they say, you couldn't make it up. And they say that politics is over-personalised these days.

Re the hook, before I comment, are you sure that all of them, not ALT4 , are short enough?

And can I remind you about the image? There seems to be a bit of a drive to get more images of women on the front page and Zoe seemed a rare example of a powerful historical woman.

I have moved further response, including on your edit on Zoe's talk page, to my talk page, so as to keep it all together. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:41, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

And the suspicious death of the second candidate third husband, and the fate of her second-marriage-brother-in-law and adoptive son, and her rise being partly due to an odd imperial habit of castrating ones' male relatives... I feel as though she should be a major character in a season or two of an HBO TV series. Apologies for the delay. Serious review follows.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

Adequate sourcing:
Neutral:
Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing: - The sentences "The sisters granted Skleraina the title of sebaste and she took rank after Zoë and Theodora, being called despoina, mistress or empress, like them and taking her place behind them in official processions and ceremonies." and "Her rooms in the palace were filled with boiling pots and pans for the manufacture of ointments and perfumes." need rephrasing to avoid copyvio of the Garland source.

Hook eligibility:

Cited: - ~~The sources seem mixed on attributing responsibility for the death to Micheal, or Zoe and Micheal, or Zoe~~ Teenaged or ~24-year-old Micheal?
Interesting:
Other problems: - Newness via GA. ALT1 short enough, ALT 2 on the 200-character limit, ALT3 is over at 212. The ALT1 hook also awkwardly changes subject in mid-sentence. Being really pedantic, she wasn't empress until three days after her first marriage, but I think we can ignore that.

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: HLHJ (talk) 22:37, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

@HLHJ:

Copy vio.

Done. Good spot. I must get into the habit of checking this myself instead of assuming that the GAN assessors are on the ball.

Cite.

True. But there are two primary sources, and I have two secondary, which say that Michael did it, either solely or jointly. There are always (nearly) sources taking a different point of view. ("Oswold shot JFK." Plenty of sources to say he didn't; some reasonably reliable.) Anyway, your call.

Hook.

ALT6 ... ~~that 55 year-old Byzantine Empress Zoë Porphyrogenita married her teenage lover the same day he (probably) murdered her husband and had him crowned emperor the next?~~

Flows a bit better and only 169 characters. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:24, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

It does flow better, although the wanting to know why she first married age 50 is gone; a marriage across an age gap seems less unusual, in cultural context, although I might be wrong there. I feel it might be slightly better to leave the author of the murder unmentioned, as a tease hook, but if you don't I'm happy with that hook, Gog the Mild. HLHJ (talk) 01:19, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

@HLHJ: Apologies for the lengthy delay. Chewing over your comments, while I would like to get in the "married at 50" bit, I think that it is probably trying to get too much into 200 characters; as you suggest, let's focus on the actual tease. Also as you suggest, let's duck the issue (in the hook) of just who killed, or ordered to be killed, Romanos. So, what do you think of ALT7? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:35, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

ALT7 ... that 55 year-old Byzantine Empress Zoë Porphyrogenita (pictured) married her young lover the same day that her husband was murdered and had him crowned emperor the next day?

(I have done some work on the Romanos III and Michael IV articles (one is a GA, one is a GAN ) and am now unsure whether Michael was a teenager at the time or whether it was an exaggeration to slur Zoe, so have fudged this bit in the hook.)

I've checked the GA review and confirmed that the DYK nomination occurred the day after the GA review was settled. The article is long enough, neutral enough, and cited throughout from scholarly sources. As noted in the GA, some possible copyright violations were flagged by review software, but the questionable sources postdate the Wikipedia page, and are copies or mirrors of this page, rather than copyright violations. The image is acceptable. QPQ is not required. Previously raised issues have been addressed.

Regarding hooks, there is at least one acceptable hook, ALT7. For readability, I've struck all proposed hooks that are 1) over length or 2) contain the "teenaged" reference, which is now considered dubious by the previous reviewers. That leaves ALT7. Information for ALT7 is stated in the lead; also the information on which that summary is based is stated and sourced later in the article, which makes ALT7 acceptable as proposed by the original nominator of the article. (Disclosure: I've added (pictured) to the hook.)

I found the repeated mentions of age a bit distracting, so I'm also suggesting a slightly rephrased version, ALT8, The info cited is the same as for ALT7: If @Gog the Mild: has no objection, it should also be acceptable. In any case, ALT7 is good. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 01:34, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

*ALT8 ... that Byzantine Empress Zoë Porphyrogenita (pictured) married her much younger lover the same day that her first husband was murdered, crowning him emperor the next day?

@Mary Mark Ockerbloom: Many thanks for picking this up. I had feared that it was lost in the doldrums forever. (It was my fourth DYK nomination, since then I have had a further 10 nominated, approved and featured on the front page!) I have a slight preference for ALT7, but let's leave them both open and allow the promoter to choose between ALT7 and ALT8. Thanks again, if you need one of yours reviewing - ping me. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:04, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks to @Mary Mark Ockerbloom: and @Gog the Mild: for tidying this up. My apologies for letting it fall. I haven't been around for a while, I'm afraid. HLHJ (talk) 00:38, 15 August 2018 (UTC)