- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 11:57, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
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Ulf Merbold
Ulf Merbold as crew member of STS-42
- ... that Ulf Merbold (pictured), the first West German in space, grew up in East Germany? Source: Evans 2013: "Both Merbold (born on 20 June 1941) and Jähn had spent their formative years in the German Democratic Republic, the communist-led East Germany"
- ALT1: ... that Ulf Merbold (pictured), the first West German in space, and Sigmund Jähn, the first East German in space, come from the same region in East Germany? Source: https://www.esa.int/Newsroom/Press_Releases/25_Years_of_Human_Spaceflight_in_Europe
ALT2: ... that Ulf Merbold (pictured) left East Germany by bicycle because he wanted to study physics? Source: see article- ALT3: ... that Ulf Merbold (pictured), whose father died in the Soviet NKVD special camp Nr. 2, later flew to space with the Russian Soyuz TM-20? Source: see article
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Hittite plague
- Comment: My childhood hero. Better hook ideas always welcome.
5x expanded by Kusma (talk). Self-nominated at 21:45, 1 April 2022 (UTC).
A 5x expansion has been accomplished and no close paraphrasing was done. A QPQ has been performed. I like ALT0 and ALT2 the best, but in ALT2's case I think it would be better to mention the "first West German in space" part and perhaps also mentioning that he grew up in East Germany too. Once ALT2 has been revised this will be good to go. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:05, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- Are you saying @Narutolovehinata5: that its fine to go, but unless someone changes it to how you would like it then you won't approve it? Victuallers (talk) 12:27, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for the review! How about this one:
ALT2a: ... that Ulf Merbold (pictured) left his home country of East Germany by bicycle because he wanted to study physics and later became the first West German citizen in space?- ALT2b: ... that the first West German in space, Ulf Merbold (pictured), grew up in East Germany but left because he wanted to study physics?
- I find it difficult not to make this long and convoluted, so I think we need to drop something, either the bicycle, or the growing up. The bicycle part probably only makes sense if you know that there was a nasty border between West and East Germany by the late 1950s, but until the Berlin Wall was built, there was no border between West and East Berlin. —Kusma (talk) 12:30, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for the review! How about this one:
- (edit conflict) @Victuallers: I'm just waiting for ALT2 to be revised before approving the nomination. The actual article is good to go, it's just that ALT2 needs revision. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:30, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- Well that seems to me to be an abuse of the process. If you want to rewrite Alt2 then we can consider that too. Surely you are saying to the nominator that they have to do as you want. I'm happy to approve this without demanding style changes (that I might think would be an approvement.) Victuallers (talk) 15:11, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Victuallers and Narutolovehinata5: I think it is fine to discuss whether a hook can be improved. The way the DYK process works, it is usually best to do the discussion and potential improvements before the formal approval. (If we wanted to be more bureaucratic, we could separately approve the article and each of the hooks, but DYK is already quite bureaucratic for my taste). Are ALT2a/ALT2b better? Or is there a better hook to be written from any of the incidents, like Mir losing power or computer failures on Columbia? —Kusma (talk) 18:11, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- It may be fine in this case and you both may be happy with the changes, however if a hook and article pass the process then they pass the process. The approval should not be withheld. If their really is an improvement possible then why do we need to hold out the tick until it is made? Its an improvement. We could see DYK approvers demanding that they would like "x" included or "you just" avoid mentioning "y" or "please rewrite the hook in the way that I prefer" (and I think I have). If it deserves a tick then it should be ticked and any optional improvements can be mentioned but not demanded.</rant> Victuallers (talk) 18:20, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- The alternative is reviewers accepting one hook and rejecting the others (and then it is more work to get variations of the other hooks approved). There are some general wikiphilosophical problems with the whole nominate/review process (instead of collaboratively improving the hook) but if we want to have strict quality control for the Main Page, we need gatekeepers. But all of that is probably a discussion more suited to WT:DYK. —Kusma (talk) 18:49, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- It may be fine in this case and you both may be happy with the changes, however if a hook and article pass the process then they pass the process. The approval should not be withheld. If their really is an improvement possible then why do we need to hold out the tick until it is made? Its an improvement. We could see DYK approvers demanding that they would like "x" included or "you just" avoid mentioning "y" or "please rewrite the hook in the way that I prefer" (and I think I have). If it deserves a tick then it should be ticked and any optional improvements can be mentioned but not demanded.</rant> Victuallers (talk) 18:20, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Victuallers and Narutolovehinata5: I think it is fine to discuss whether a hook can be improved. The way the DYK process works, it is usually best to do the discussion and potential improvements before the formal approval. (If we wanted to be more bureaucratic, we could separately approve the article and each of the hooks, but DYK is already quite bureaucratic for my taste). Are ALT2a/ALT2b better? Or is there a better hook to be written from any of the incidents, like Mir losing power or computer failures on Columbia? —Kusma (talk) 18:11, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: what do you think about ALT2a/2b? Happy to hear your thoughts about improving the hooks. —Kusma (talk) 20:30, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- I think ALT2b is better. ALT2a's wording is a bit awkward, as you suggested. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- OK, I've struck ALT2a; do you think you can approve this now? —Kusma (talk) 07:31, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
Approving ALT2b only. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:57, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: I can't have ALT0? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 01:51, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Also, what's the hangup here? If I say that I think a hook I review should have a stylistic change, and the nominator protests, I'm usually happy to give deference. But there's no incentive to discuss or consider if I tick it right away. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 01:52, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- For what it's worth I think ALT2b is better because it gives some context as to why he left East Germany. Actually, originally I wanted the bicycle thing to be mentioned but adding it would have made the final hook clunky, so ALT2b was intended to be some kind of compromise. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:10, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- It may actually be hookier without the context (i.e. ALT0). Could we leave the choice of hook to the promoter? —Kusma (talk) 12:11, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not happy with the sourcing for that, but according to Wikipedia, Ulf Merbold threw the first boomerang in space :) —Kusma (talk) 12:14, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: I agree with Kusma, the hook gets some catchiness by not explaining why he left. Leaves the readers some room to click, figure it out for themselves. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 02:50, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
- Fair enough. If there's a desire to promote ALT0 then I will not oppose it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:52, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: I agree with Kusma, the hook gets some catchiness by not explaining why he left. Leaves the readers some room to click, figure it out for themselves. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 02:50, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
- For what it's worth I think ALT2b is better because it gives some context as to why he left East Germany. Actually, originally I wanted the bicycle thing to be mentioned but adding it would have made the final hook clunky, so ALT2b was intended to be some kind of compromise. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:10, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- OK, I've struck ALT2a; do you think you can approve this now? —Kusma (talk) 07:31, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- I think ALT2b is better. ALT2a's wording is a bit awkward, as you suggested. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
ALT0 to T:DYK/P2 without image