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Template:Did you know nominations/Sister Christine

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 07:08, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

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Sister Christine

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Sister Christine

* ... that Indian Hindu monk Swami Vivekananda considered Sister Christine (pictured) as his own daughter?

Moved to mainspace by Titodutta (talk), Nvvchar (talk), Bgwhite (talk), Sohambanerjee1998 (talk). Nominated by Titodutta (talk) at 00:28, 7 September 2013 (UTC).

Date request
  • Nice article, but the expansion is not significant enough for "new content" DYK criteria. July version was 3914 B (627 words) "readable prose size", the current one has

6148 B (1036 words) "readable prose size" - that's not even 2x expansion. I am afraid this is not a DYK material. You may want to consider WP:GAN instead (but please fix broken reference 4 first). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:27, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

  • The article is moved to mainspace recently. Ref fixed. --Tito☸Dutta 11:43, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately, the FN3 source used to cite the assertion that Vivekananda considered Christine to be his foster daughter does not even use the word "foster", and the FN2 source is likewise free of the word. The best FN2 can do is to say they had a "close, father-daughter style relationship" (which isn't in the article), and FN3 relies on a statement by an otherwise unknown woman who says "if" Vivekananda had a daughter "in a human sense", she thought it was Christine. One person's thoughts are nowhere near definitive enough to justify the hook as it stands, so I've struck it. I regret having to do this, and hope a new hook can be vetted in time for this to be promoted back into a set that runs on 11 September in India as requested. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:50, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
@BlueMoonset:, fixed, fixed. Vrajaprana's books has lots of details. I have added that one too. --Tito☸Dutta 04:07, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Please, let's have a new hook then, with an improvement on the "considered as" wording. Also, I'd appreciate it if you would give us a brief quote here from those pages in the Vrajaprana book that supports the "daughter" assertion. Nothing that would violate fair use, but a sentence or part of one would be wonderful. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:18, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
A Portrait of Sister Christine quotes

Vrajaprana, Pravrajika (1996). A portrait of Sister Christine. Calcutta: Ramakrishna Mission Institute of Culture. ISBN 978-8185843803.

  • Page 13, last paragraph: Swamiji's offering of Christine to the Divine Mother goes a long way to demonstrate the essential character of their relationship: that of father and daughter. As Maries Louise Burke wrote in her fine and revealing article, "Swami Vivekananda: Human and Divine": "If anyone was Swamiji's daughter in a very human sense, I think it was Christine."
  • Page 13 last paragraph and page 14 first line:This was particularly pronounced in the West, where one sees Swamiji relating, in a very real and concrete way, to Mrs. Ole Bull as his mother, to Mary Hale as his sister, to Josephine MacLeod as his friend. More than with anyone else— even more than with his famous disciple Nivedita (who could better be defined as a protegee)— Christine was his daughter.
  • Page 14, last paragraph: Christine was apparently never scolded, never exhorted to struggle to work. Far from it. For Christine Swmiji showed nothing but the most tender solitude, and his letters to her are a moving testament to the power of this spiritual father—daughter relationship.
  • Page 15, last paragraph: Rather than Swamiji in his man-making aspect, we see the gentle father who wants to coddle and protect his child.
  • Page 47, second paragraph: As a doting father reassures a worried child, Swamiji tells Christine....

There might be more, currently I am manually find-ing in the book.

Tito☸Dutta 04:59, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for providing the info, Tito. My take, on reading these quotes (including the Burke one; she was also a Vivekananda scholar) is that this is a scholarly conclusion, rather than anything Vivekananda directly acknowledged. The hook, however, implied that it was acknowledged. I think, regretfully, that the hook needs to be recast. You may have your own ideas, or perhaps it could be something like "scholars believe that Indian Hindu monk Swami Vivekananda regarded his American disciple Sister Christine as a daughter". Would it be more or less interesting to identify Christine as American disciple? (I'm assuming she became a citizen, but that may not be true; she had nevertheless lived there for about a quarter century.) BlueMoonset (talk) 05:58, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Don't see the interest in ALT1. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:16, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Hello, Brahmacharya is (lifelong) celibacy, I am making some changes—
ALT1a: in 1895, Swami Vivekananda initiated Sister Christine (pictured) into Brahmacharya (lifelong celibacy), dedicated her to the Divine Mother and reserved her to serve India?
Tito☸Dutta 00:29, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Perhaps actually having an English translation would help the interest factor (lifelong celibacy can raise eyebrows, but only if we understand what's being said). I am loathe to offer an ALT, as that would mean you need to wait for another reviewer, but something in parentheses would help. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:32, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I have made two changes above a) translation b) last part of the hook "to serve India". --Tito☸Dutta 01:08, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Sister Christine

  • I like ALT2, but the source should not be linked per WP:ELNO unless the text is already public domain. When were Christine's memoirs published? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:08, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I have removed the link. Tito☸Dutta 01:03, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I would like to know when her memoirs were first published. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:58, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't know. Yesterday, I found preface to the first edition dated 1 May 1961 Mayavati. So, it should be the same time. But, that was the collection of memoirs, not only Sister Christine's memoirs. The same first edition preface mentions "MOST of these reminiscences appeared in periodicals from time to time.", I have seen Sister Christine's memoir being referred in 1950 and 1961 too. --Tito☸Dutta 02:25, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Alright, better to leave it unlinked. As she died in 1930, it's likely out of copyright, but without any proof... ALT2 approved. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:28, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
Note to DYK promoter/admin

This DYK is ready and has been requested for 15 Sept's slot. Please feel free to promote the ALT2 ALT3 anytime you want.

Reply to Crisco

@Crisco 1492:, following Mandarax's suggestion—

Sister Christine

  • ALT2a: ... that, according to Sister Christine (pictured), her "love for India came to birth" when she first heard Swami Vivekananda uttering the word "India" in his "marvellous voice"?
  • ALT3: ... that Sister Christine (pictured) said that Swami Vivekananda's mere uttering of the word "India" stirred emotions of "love, passion, pride, longing, adoration, tragedy, chivalry, heimweh, and again love"?

Tito☸Dutta 04:55, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

  • Yep, both okay. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:40, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Okay ALT3 then. --Tito☸Dutta 06:58, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
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