Template:Did you know nominations/Russian submarine K-18 Karelia
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 11:28, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
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Russian submarine K-18 Karelia edit
... that the Russian President Vladimir Putin boarded the submarine K-18 Karelia (pictured) in April 2000?
- Reviewed: Juan Manuel Galán Pachón
Created by Strike Eagle (talk). Self nominated at 09:11, 6 July 2013 (UTC).
There are issues with close paraphrasing.
- " About 100 new features were applied to the boat including installation of rocket torpedo system TVR-671RTM and addition of the RSM-54 Sineva SLBMs. in article compared to "Over 100 innovations were applied during upgrade, including installation of rocket torpedo system TVR-671RTM and SLBMs RSM-54 Sineva."
- " It was laid down in February 1987, launched in 1988 and was commissioned in 1989 into the Soviet Navy." compared to "The submarine was laid down in February 1987 in Severodvinsk; launched in 1988; commissioned in 1989."
- "The submarine conducted over 14 missile fires and covered more than 140,000 kn (260,000 km/h; 160,000 mph)." compared to "The sub has performed over 14 missile firings and covered more than 140,000 nautical miles."
- "K-18 Karelia (Russian: К-18 Карелия) is a Project 667BDRM Delfin class (NATO reporting name: Delta IV) nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine currently in service with the Russian Navy." compared to "K-18 Karelia is a 2nd generation Project 667BDRM Delfin Nuclear-Powered Ballistic Missile Submarine."
There are no categories as well. SL93 (talk) 05:11, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- Another identical bit: "In April 2000, Vladamir Putin sailed aboard the sub" from FN1 also appears in the article, albeit extended with additional information (and "sub" becomes "submarine"). The consensus at WT:DYK#Editor closely paraphrases sources is clear: the article does indeed have close paraphrasing that can and needs to be fixed. This is not just a DYK issue, but a Wikipedia article issue. BlueMoonset (talk) 13:37, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- I have made some edits and solved the close paraphrasing problems as mentioned earlier. Any more suggestions? Or is the article ready to be passed? Anir1uph | talk | contrib 15:38, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
The close paraphrasing has been fixed. This is ready now. SL93 (talk) 15:44, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
- All the same, to me it's a dull hook. Head of state/government with powerful military visits naval vessel? I'm sure just about every other Russian, American, Chinese or British leader has done that.
However, there's not much to work with in the article. Daniel Case (talk) 05:23, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- He did not only visit one. He boarded it, and went out to the sea in it. I do not know if any head of state has done that in a nuclear submarine (forgive me if I am unaware!). Anir1uph | talk | contrib 06:28, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- If that's the case, maybe the hook could be reworded. "Boarded" does not necessarily mean "went out to sea in". DoctorKubla (talk) 13:03, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah, you are right. But I am not the one who worded the hook that way, and I am not the nominator either. Though i did work a little on the article. The cited sources say he sailed in the submarine. To remove close paraphrasing, i had re-worded that to "In April 2000, the then newly-incumbent Russian President Vladimir Putin was given a demonstrative excursion in the submarine". May be we can use that as the hook. How does that sound? Anir1uph | talk | contrib 14:44, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- Hmm, having looked at the sources, they don't go into much detail about what exactly Putin did in the submarine; "sailed" is very vague. Better play it safe and stick with "boarded". DoctorKubla (talk) 18:44, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- But sailing and boarding a ship are quite distinct. Sailing implies travel. Boarding implies a visit. A lot of politicians board ships and submarines, but riding out to the sea in a nuclear submarine can be noteworthy, IMO. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 02:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- If I saw a hook that said "Putin sailed in a submarine", I'd want to know where he went (did he go out to sea? did he go underwater? or did he just sail half a mile along the coast?), and I'd be annoyed that this information isn't in the article. Besides, the original hook's been approved, and I don't want to disrupt the process by proposing a new one at this stage. DoctorKubla (talk) 07:25, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- But sailing and boarding a ship are quite distinct. Sailing implies travel. Boarding implies a visit. A lot of politicians board ships and submarines, but riding out to the sea in a nuclear submarine can be noteworthy, IMO. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 02:55, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- Hmm, having looked at the sources, they don't go into much detail about what exactly Putin did in the submarine; "sailed" is very vague. Better play it safe and stick with "boarded". DoctorKubla (talk) 18:44, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah, you are right. But I am not the one who worded the hook that way, and I am not the nominator either. Though i did work a little on the article. The cited sources say he sailed in the submarine. To remove close paraphrasing, i had re-worded that to "In April 2000, the then newly-incumbent Russian President Vladimir Putin was given a demonstrative excursion in the submarine". May be we can use that as the hook. How does that sound? Anir1uph | talk | contrib 14:44, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- If that's the case, maybe the hook could be reworded. "Boarded" does not necessarily mean "went out to sea in". DoctorKubla (talk) 13:03, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- He did not only visit one. He boarded it, and went out to the sea in it. I do not know if any head of state has done that in a nuclear submarine (forgive me if I am unaware!). Anir1uph | talk | contrib 06:28, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- All the same, to me it's a dull hook. Head of state/government with powerful military visits naval vessel? I'm sure just about every other Russian, American, Chinese or British leader has done that.
- I have pulled this from prep as I think the hook is substandard; a new hook needs to be found. Gatoclass (talk) 09:04, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- I approved the nomination on July 16, but this has still not been promoted because of a hook? Two editors have already said that this is interesting, so I don't see why this was pulled. If this isn't promoted simply because of hook disagreement, I should have never tried to fix the close paraphrasing and I should have never reviewed the nomination. SL93 (talk) 01:32, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- To be clear, two editors who frequently edit articles about this topic, as well as know a lot about the topic said that the hook is interesting. SL93 (talk) 02:18, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- I do think the hook is interesting, and I have explained why I think so in my comments above. To summarize - I don't know of any other head of state to go sailing in a nuclear submarine. The hook can be suitably modified as per my suggestion above. The creator of the article and it nominator Strike Eagle is busy in some off-wiki work, and may not be able to respond here. Anir1uph | talk | contrib 02:59, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- SL93, only one user expressed satisfaction with the hook prior to my pulling it - Anir now says he too thinks the hook is interesting, but that still makes three users who have expressed dissatisfaction with the hook versus two who think it's okay, which means the hook clearly doesn't have consensus. Anir, it might be of some interest that a head of state took an excursion aboard a nuclear submarine, but the hook doesn't say that, it just says a head of state "boarded" a "submarine" - and in any case Putin is well known for his adventurism. So again, either the existing hook needs to be modified appropriately or an entirely new hook found. Gatoclass (talk) 03:51, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- Since no-one else has come up with an alternative hook, here's my suggestion:
ALT1:... that in 2004, Russian President Putin oversaw Arctic war games from aboard the nuclear submarine K-18 Karelia (pictured)?Gatoclass (talk) 02:44, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
- ALT1 is not supported by the source, which says that Putin "boarded the Arkhangelsk nuclear submarine" in February 2004—Arkhangelsk (TK-17), not Karelia (K-18). There is, however, a source available with quite a few details on the April 2000 voyage aboard the Karelia: this Pravda article notes that Putin was Interim President, spent the night on Karelia at 50 meters depth, and watched (and was part of) a Northern Fleet exercise while on board. I've struck the original hook and ALT1; I'm sure that once the new information has been incorporated (and the Arkhangelsk info either removed or specified as the second of Putin's nuclear voyages), a quite interesting hook can be created. (Use "nuclear submarine" rather than "submarine", for one thing.) BlueMoonset (talk) 05:59, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
- Good find. I've added the info to the article.
- ALT2: ... that in April 2000, Russian President Vladimir Putin spent a night in the nuclear submarine K-18 Karelia (pictured), at a depth of over 50 metres?
- — DoctorKubla (talk) 07:15, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
- Good find. I've added the info to the article.
Reviewer needed for new ALT2 hook and article updates. BlueMoonset (talk) 08:09, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
