Template:Did you know nominations/Gott sei gelobet und gebenedeiet

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 21:25, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Gott sei gelobet und gebenedeiet edit

(

)

Luther in 1526

... that the communion song "Gott sei gelobet und gebenedeiet", which Martin Luther (pictured) derived from an older model, entered Catholic hymnals in the 20th century? Source: [1]

Reviewed: Central Province, Zambia
Comment: best on Reformation Day, 31 October

5x expanded by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 21:20, 13 October 2017 (UTC).

This article has been expanded 5x, is long enough and was nominated within seven days. The image is suitably licensed, and the hook is short enough and the hook fact is sourced inline. There are no copyright issues. With the hook, I assume "derived from an older model" to mean "derived from an older hymn" (the article says that Luther used an older first stanza and melody); could you please confirm this? It's not clear what "model" means. Regards, --Sp33dyphil (talk) 01:38, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the review! - At the time when Luther wrote this, there was no congregational strophic hymn singing, - he sort of made that popular. Sorry, the assumption is wrong. The "older model" (as the article explains but perhaps it should come out more clearly, help welcome!) was a refrain of the congregation in German to a sequence sung in in Latin by a Choralschola (as that is called nowö) and chant. Luther made that refrain (with minor changes) the first stanza of his hymn. However worded, it will be too long for this hook, - I took "model" as a summary. Help for the hook's wording is also welcome, to say that it came from the catholic tradition, and is now back to (Roman) Catholic, ecumenically accepted. Luther took A LOT from the tradition, compare other hymns. It's my statement for Reformation Day, - if we can have only one DYK about Reformation that Day, I hope this will be it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:15, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

So according to you, the refrain was from a sequence; according to the article, a sequence "is a chant or hymn". I still don't understand why in what sense hymn as a word is not applicable in this case. Regards, --Sp33dyphil (talk) 08:42, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, English is not my first language. "Hymn" is a word with too many meanings, for my taste, so I try to avoid it. A national anthem can be a hymn, Luther's strophic songs (in German: "Kirchenlied" = church song) are called hymns, Gregorian chant can be called a hymn. How would a reader know which kind we mean? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:43, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

I assume that the main point of the hook is that Luther took a Catholic refrain and use it in his song, and was later readmitted into Catholic services. In that case, I think less emphasis should be placed on the specific type of song that Luther drew inspiration from. Perhaps we could reword the hook as:
ALT1:... that the communion song "Gott sei gelobet und gebenedeiet", which Martin Luther (pictured) partially derived from a Catholic chorus, entered Catholic hymnals in the 20th century? What do you think? Regards, --Sp33dyphil (talk) 05:36, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

I like the idea but not the word chorus, - the chorus would be rather the singers of the Latin sequence. "catholic" before the Reformation should be lower case, or avoided ;) - If we have space we can be precise (and elucidate about the little known fact that there was liturgical singing in German before Luther):

ALT2: ... that the communion song "Gott sei gelobet und gebenedeiet", which Martin Luther (pictured) derived from a congregational refrain in German, entered Catholic hymnals in the 20th century? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:53, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

OK. I'm not sure if ALT2 conveys what you wanted to be conveyed as per your first response. I just think that "congregational refrain in German" places emphasis on the type of song, instead of Luther himself, which takes away the impact of the fact that it entered Catholic hymnals. In other words, do you want to emphasise Luther, or the fact that the song was from a the catholic tradition? Thoughts? --Sp33dyphil (talk) 03:58, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

I think that the phrase "older model" from the original hook implied (enough) that he built on tradition, and I saw no need to say Catholic twice in a hook planned for Reformation Day, because I don't expect the average to get that the two "catholic" don't mean the same ;) - He wrote several songs relying on Latin models, therefore I thought "German" might add. The one other hymn relying on a German model that I know is Nun bitten wir den Heiligen Geist. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:41, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

How is this:

ALT3: ... that the communion song "Gott sei gelobet und gebenedeiet", which Martin Luther (pictured) derived from a traditional German chant, entered Catholic hymnals in the 20th century? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:17, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

OK, thanks for that. --Sp33dyphil (talk) 22:30, 19 October 2017 (UTC)