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Template:Did you know nominations/Eduardo A. Roca

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:40, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

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Eduardo A. Roca edit

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Eduardo A. Roca
Eduardo A. Roca

Created by LLcentury (talk). Self-nominated at 02:01, 18 May 2019 (UTC).

  • New enough, long enough, reliably sourced, no copyvios, etc. Good job!--NØ 12:59, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
Comment: MaranoFan, while it's not a serious copyvio problem, this is a page translated without attribution from Spanish Wikipedia; either LLcentury or I will fix that, but it's a copyvio fail until it's been done. Also Genealogía Familiar is – in my opinion – nothing like a reliable source by our standards, and needs to be replaced with something much better (changing the hook too if that turns out to be necessary). Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:52, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Done with Genealogia Familiar, except for the translate template which I still don't understand. Thanks and best wishes. --LLcentury (talk) 20:15, 28 May 2019 (UTC) @Justlettersandnumbers:, Hi friend, I've already re-supported his law firm source with Página 12, a very trustworthy Argentine newspaper which supports the information taken from his law firm website, though Página 12 warns that "according to". Hope this contributes. :) --LLcentury (talk) 20:27, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

  • Deferring to a new reviewer due to my unfamiliarity with this subject. Justlettersandnumbers, thanks for noticing and correcting my lack of judgement in this case.—NØ 04:04, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

MaranoFan , Hi friend!, please check my talk page, it's been reviewed again and apparently approved. :) Best wishes. --LLcentury (talk) 10:59, 30 May 2019 (UTC) Justlettersandnumbers Hi friend, just a clarification, I cited three books to verify his Curriculum Vitae, but I was told only one source is needed and the rest go to "Bibliography". Do you agree? Best wishes. --LLcentury (talk) 17:10, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

LLcentury You asked at the talk page how long it takes to review for a second time. It depends on many things. For me, when I come here, what stands out to me first is that the hook is sourced to genealogiafamilar.net, which is likely crowdsourced and therefore not a reliable source. It makes me question all the sourcing for the article, unfortunately, which tells me that reviewing this is going to be a big job. I'm sorry, but I think you should probably go back to the article and check all your sources to make sure they're reliable. You can find help at WP:RSN. If you're no longer relying on that source, strike out the source and provide the new one. valereee (talk) 22:17, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Valereee - Sorry but I already removed Genealogia Familiar last week and I tried to cite books but was told that books go to Bibliography. Please, reach an agreement among yourselves because you confuse me, with all due respect I say that. Kind regards. --LLcentury (talk) 22:24, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
LLcentury, no worries, I know it's frustrating to try to figure out everything. First, let's strike out the source you used for the first hook. I'm going to do that for you so you can see how it's done. Then let's add the new source. What we're looking for is ideally a link to the source, plus a quote from that source that supports your hook. valereee (talk) 22:40, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
Valereee - I understood it now, sorry, changed the source to the hook. Please check it, it's in Spanish if need translation ask me. --LLcentury (talk) 22:47, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
Okay, that source supports the part of your hook that says the two men are related, but I don't see it saying he was there for the whole Falklands war, and it looks like he was only ambassador for a very short time, so we'll need to support that too. Also we don't generally delete things -- we strike them out, so people can follow the conversation more easily. I've fixed that. Okay, now we should talk about the hook. It's a little bland. How would you feel about ... that Argentina's ambassador to the UN during the Falklands War, Eduardo A. Roca, was the grand-nephew of former Argentinian president Julio Argentino Roca? --valereee (talk) 23:08, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
Valereee, Done dear friend, added the two sources to support full hook, please choose whatever form of hook but I would like to see Falklands/Malvinas War instead of only "Falklands War", but that's up to you. Kind regards. --LLcentury (talk) 23:15, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
When you open the editing box, if you'll look at the number of colons in front of the comment you're replying to and add one more it will indent correctly. If you look at this one and yours above, you'll see I've got one more colon that is in front of yours (I fixed it.) This helps other editors see who is replying to whom. Re: Falklands/Malvinas vs Falklands War, I'm not getting into anything that sounds like it might be an ongoing argument among different points of view, lol! Wikipedia redirects Falklands/Malvinas War to Falklands War. You can certainly give it a go, but it might be a fight you don't want to get into here at DYK. :D The second source just says he was ambassador in 1982, but that the one before him and after him were also ambassadors that same year, so it doesn't actually support him being ambassador during the weeks of the war. It's quite likely to be challenged, so you're going to want to find a source with exact dates that puts him firmly in the position during those ten or whatever weeks. --valereee (talk) 23:38, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
Valereee, think clarified now, I am so sorry for so much mess. --LLcentury (talk) 23:54, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
LLcentury, no worries, it's a pretty steep learning curve here at WP! Okay, so I'm going to format the new hook. We call the original hook ALT0, and after that we start numbering them so we can discuss them without confusion.
Perfect!, I accept that hook! --LLcentury (talk) 00:07, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Looking for a new review for ALT1. --valereee (talk) 00:40, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

  • ALT1 gives too much weight to WP:INHERITED. I don't think this familial relationship belongs in the lead, either. Isn't there something to say about the subject himself? Some of the material he said in speeches at the UN could be used for a hook. I have tagged one word for clarification (see hidden note there). Yoninah (talk) 18:41, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Yoninah Hi Yoninah!, first, I've clarified what needed to be clarified in the article. And this is my proposed hook:

  • ALT2: ... that Argentina's Ambassador to the UN during the Falklands/Malvinas War, Eduardo A. Roca, accused the United Kingdom of aggression at the time of the Invasion to the islands? (Sorry my English). --LLcentury (talk) 18:58, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank you. I have formatted your alt. Here is a smoother rendition of it which meets DYK's guidelines for putting the subject in the front of the hook:
  • ALT2a: ... that Eduardo A. Roca, Argentina's permanent representative to the United Nations during the Falklands War, accused the United Kingdom of aggression at the time of the invasion to the islands?
  • But I don't understand the hook. Argentina invaded the islands and then Britain did, according to our Falklands War article. If Roca is Argentina's representative, of course he's going to accuse the UK of aggression. Perhaps a little bit more will make this hooky:
  • ALT3: ... that Eduardo A. Roca, Argentina's permanent representative to the United Nations during the Falklands War, accused the UK of aggression and condemned the US for supporting it?
  • Alternately, there's a good hook hiding in this sentence: In a speech in March 1968, Roca spoke of "subversive activity," instead of possible external enemies. -- but it needs to be made clearer in the article what you're talking about.
  • Please see how I edited your article. He was not the ambassador to the UN, but a permanent representative, as per the UN page. I tried to format the bald URLs, but cannot find the correct URL for footnote 11; right now it is directing to a general Google Books page. Footnote 6 also needs to be formatted in full with the title of the book, author, isbn, etc. I have also tagged one paragraph for lacking any citations, per Rule D2. While the article is start-class for DYK, it does not mention his education or what he did after his UN appointment. Yoninah (talk) 20:38, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Hi Yoninah! Thanks for your immense help, I've added citation where needed and you are free to remove the third point of "Bibliography" since that "book" or "bulletin" has no ISBN.
  • ALT4: ... that during the Falklands War, then Argentine Permanent Representative to the UN expressed concerns of "internal subversive activity" regarding the conflict?
  • Check it please. Thanks again for your patience and kindness. --LLcentury (talk) 22:43, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Just leaving a comment here. I know Wikipedia is not censored and all, but considering the remaining tensions with regards to the Falklands, I'm not sure if a hook focusing on that conflict is a good idea. As a backup, perhaps another hook discussing a different aspect of his life can be proposed? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:38, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Narutolovehinata5 Hi!, at least here in Argentina, it's been long overcome, current President Macri had an excellent meeting with now renounced British PM May and the people here love UK culture. Don't know what tensions are you referring to. Kind regards. --LLcentury (talk) 23:54, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

  • LLcentury, when you suggested ALT4, were you saying that you weren't happy with ALT2a and ALT3, as proposed by Yoninah? Typically that's what the next reviewer to come through would assume, I suspect. --valereee (talk) 10:45, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
Valereee Hi Valereee!, No! I agree with her but she said the following Alternately, there's a good hook hiding in this sentence: In a speech in March 1968, Roca spoke of "subversive activity," instead of possible external enemies. -- but it needs to be made clearer in the article what you're talking about.. That's why I proposed ALT4. Very kind regards. --LLcentury (talk) 11:53, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT4 is a little vague, so I struck it. I think ALT3 is the best hook, with stronger and snappier wording than the other suggestions. Valereee, would you review that please? Yoninah (talk) 20:47, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
I can't see ref 10 which supports "accused the UK of aggression" but will accept AGF. Ref 11, which supports "condemned the US for supporting it" has something wrong with it -- it takes me to a blank googlebooks page. I can't figure out how to recreate whatever it was supposed to link to. --valereee (talk) 21:25, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
Just updated article to move a ref that was available and supports "uk agression", but that make the ref that's broken #12 --valereee (talk) 21:28, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes, I noted that problem above, when it was called footnote 11. LLcentury, please format footnote 12 correctly so this nomination can proceed. Yoninah (talk) 21:32, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
  • oops, sorry, missed that! --valereee (talk) 21:36, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank you, that confirms it. Back to you, Valeree. Yoninah (talk) 22:58, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
ALT3 all points supported by sources. --valereee (talk) 10:07, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
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