- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by sst✈ 10:01, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
ALT2 promoted with image
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Bara Gumbad edit
Bara Gumbad
... that Bara Gumbad (pictured), constructed by Sikandar Lodi in 1490 CE is considered to have the first full dome constructed in Delhi?
Created by AKS.9955 (talk). Self-nominated at 06:11, 18 October 2015 (UTC).
A lot of the information appears to be lifted from the wikipedia article on Lodi Gardens. Other cites provided also do not contain the information that they supposedly support. In looking for a reference to support the hook, I found this source in google books which gives a much better and more likely explanation (it was most likely built with the intent of being a tomb but no one was ever buried there). I have concerns about the integrity of the sourcing in this article. Best.4meter4 (talk) 15:17, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
No response from the nominator in over a week. With some serious sourcing issues in the article, and the lack of response I think this nomination should be rejected.4meter4 (talk) 05:01, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hello 4meter4, oweing to personal schedule, I have not been able to give lot of time to WP in the past 2 weeks or so. Just got back in town and I will look into this and revert. Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 04:47, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hello 4meter4, following are my replies to the points raised.
- Information from Lodi Gardens: It is obvious that Lodi Gardens, Shisha Gumbad, Tomb of Sikandar Lodi and Bara Gumbad will have lots of resemblances; primarily due to the fact that they were built at the same geographical location, by the same family (dynasty), in same time-period, similar architecture, almost similar purposes and form a part of the same compound (or enclosure which was built in early 20th century). If at all there is a COPYVIO that I overlooked (which I missed on checking), please let me know and I will be happy to correct it. Nothing has been "lifted" from Lodi Gardens page.
- Link to support the hook: This and this source (already cited in article) mention that the structure was raised as a gateway to the mosque.
- New source. You have provided a new source (thanks). I will add that to the article.
- 4meter4, I am not sure how many India related articles you have written but let me share my experience - accurate sources on India related (historic) subjects are very difficult to find. For example, check this list. All the ghats in Varanasi date back to 18th century (or later) but we cannot find any credible sources - apart from a mention in a list. I know what you mean by talking about "integrity", but just check the pages I have created - NONE of them are in bad faith and have been done with sole intention of contributing to WP. Let me know if you need further information. Cheers, Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 17:10, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- User:AKS.9955, the issue is not copyright infringement but WP:Original Research. There are several sentences in the article that are not supported by the cited sources. For example, in the opening remarks the article states "situated 100 meters away from the Shisha Gumbad and appx 400 meters from Tomb of Sikandar Lodi". Neither of the two sources cited at the end of that sentence provides a distance measurement of 100 meters or 400 meters. It's not clear where this information came from. In spot checking, I found similar problems in multiple places which is a red flag. I think the article is going to need a thorough combing through for fact accuracy; something I personally am not willing to devote my time to. I have tagged the article in a few places for where there are issues (although there may be more as I only spot checked). I strongly urge you to read Wikipedia:Verifiability if you have not already. Even if edits are in good faith, content not supported to reliable references should not be added. Wikipedia ultimately is not interested in what is true but what is verifiably true. Best. 4meter4 (talk) 20:50, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hello 4meter4, the distances were calculated from Google maps. Source was mentioned under section "Location" and the area you pointed this out was in article lead (ref WP:WHENNOTCITE). I am fully aware about WP:V and WP:NOR. I am yet to see one policy, guideline or discussion that says that Google maps cannot be used for calculating distances. As a matter of fact, WP:CALC is acceptable and not considered as WP:NOR (similar principle but different subjects). As pointed out by you, I will comb the entire page line by line and will close it by today. If there are issues still, then I will withdraw the nomination after you give it a look as I don't want anyone to waste their time on non-productive work. Thanks, Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 06:20, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- The distances mentioned from the Tomb of Sikandar Lodi in the lead were not given in the lower part of the article, so a citation in the lead is necessary. If the lead were merely a summary of what was in the article's body than it would be fine to have no citations. But you were giving facts in the lead not presented in the body's text. I don't know what the policy is on citing google maps. Regardless, I appreciate you taking the time to clarify some of the issues. Please let me know when you're done and I will look it over. Best.4meter4 (talk) 15:46, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hello 4meter4, I forgot to tell you earlier that I started a discussion on WP:OR noticeboard on this subject (check here). Lets see what comes out of it. As promised, I will revert to you by tomorrow (latest) and we will close this. Thanks for your support. Cheers, Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 16:49, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hello 4meter4, following action taken;
- Source supplied for distance with Shisha Gumbad and Tomb of Sikandar Lodi (it was there but now I have just made sure it is mentioned next to the line and the source is NOT Google maps).
- Major changes in the write-up and all ambiguous write-up cleaned.
- Arranged references properly.
- Amended hook.
- I hope this will meet the requirements. Thanks for your cooperation. Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 12:31, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
New reviewer needed to check to be sure the issues raised above have been fully addressed and to otherwise finish the review. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:44, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- I'm looking at this, but I may not get a proper review done until tomorrow. What I will say right away is that the criticism for not citing distances is such a nonsense, yet another example of the ridiculous belief here that every sentence has to be cited. The guidelines don't say that, and never have, besides which, it pretty much comes under WP:Routine calculation in my book. If it can be checked on Google Maps, then anyone can do that, and they can do it a lot easier than they could to an out-of-print obscure travel guide of questionable accuracy, which we would have no trouble accepting simply because it results in the obligatory little blue number. SpinningSpark 22:15, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
New enough, long enough, image properly licensed, hook is cited. Copyvio detector shows no commonality whatsoever with Lodi Gardens so I think that is a non-issue. There are a couple of instances of close paraphrasing, which would probably have just about been acceptable if it was just that, except that one of them is the hook fact. However, this should be easily fixable. The hook instance is;
- Source: The Bara Gumbad, completed in 1490, is considered to have the first full dome constructed in Delhi. Its original purpose is contested; although it appears to be a freestanding tomb, it contains no tombstone.
- Article: The Bara Gumbad is considered to have the first full dome constructed in Delhi. Although the Bara Gumbad does not house any tomb, it appears to be a freestanding tomb and its original purpose is contested.
In particular, the "is considered to have" is an awkward turn of phrase anyway and could do with copyediting. SpinningSpark 11:49, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
I have addressed the close paraphrasing issues noted above in the lead. If someone else can confirm that the open issues have been addressed, I believe this may now be acceptable.Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 06:39, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- Still seeing some instances of close paraphrasing - for example, compare "Bara Gumbad was constructed by someone from Lodhi Dynasty in 1490 CE and was taken over by Sikander Lodhi in 1494 CE as an entrance to his mosque" with "Bara Gumbad tomb was believed to have been built in 1490 by a Lodi noble and taken over in 1494 by Sikander Lodi as an entrance to his mosque". Nikkimaria (talk) 14:25, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- Adding icon to reflect close paraphrasing status. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:00, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- Right, then. @BlueMoonset, I've used the copy-vio detectors to review the pages cited, and have rewritten text wherever a sequence of 4 or more words seemed to suggest a copyvio. Happy almost New Year, hopefully we can get this one off the queue soon. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 22:42, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
- Good enough on paraphrasing now, needs re-review for other issues per MMO. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:29, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Now that the copyvio issue has been dealt with, I see no reason not to pass this based on my original review. SpinningSpark 15:53, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- Proposing an ALT1 to deal with the hook objections raised in Spinningspark's review:
- ALT1:
... that Bara Gumbad (pictured), built by Sikandar Lodi in 1490 CE, is believed to have the earliest constructed full dome of any building in Delhi?
- ALT1:
- Note that I have not used "free full dome" as in the article because the source does not use the word "free". BlueMoonset (talk) 04:22, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- Proposing alt2, since there is minor disagreement over the attribution to Sikandir Lodi Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 14:57, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
- ALT2: ... that Bara Gumbad (pictured), built during the Lodi dynasty in 1490 CE, is believed to have the earliest constructed full dome of any building in Delhi?
- ALT2 looks great to me; I've struck ALT1 in its favor due the Mary Mark Ockerbloom's reasoning. Note that Spinningspark's tick above was made after ALT2 was posted, and after the original hook had been struck. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:50, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
