Template:Did you know nominations/Akatombo, Miki Rofū
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:43, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
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Akatombo, Miki Rofū edit
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... that the nostalgic 1927 childrens' song "Akatombo" ("Red Dragonfly"), written by symbolist poet Rofū Miki and composed by Kosaku Yamada, is one of the most-loved 100 Japanese Songs?
- Reviewed: I only have 3 DYK credits.
- Comment: There is also an image for (the monument to) "Akatombo" if that is preferable. I've added it here for comparison.
Created/expanded by Softlavender (talk), Sam Sailor (talk), and Mortee (talk). Nominated by Softlavender (talk) at 14:50, 23 February 2017 (UTC).
Love it. Article on a song with a history, and the collaboration! Good sources, Japanese sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. - Minor questions to the hook: "nostalgic" carries negative connotations, do we need that? My hook would be much shorter, - don't tell it all:- ALT1:
... that the song "Akatombo" ("Red Dragonfly") is one of the most-loved Japanese songs? - Minor questions to the article: sometimes you have several refs to a fact, - they should be ascending in number. The lead should be a summary of sourced info from the body, - it doesn't need refs, they should all go below. "infant over a sister's shoulder" - not clear at first reading that the infant is carried by the sister. Think about nostalgic, or explain that I misunderstand it ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:36, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for the review. "Nostalgic" is in no way negative (and it is actually the reason why adults like this song as much or more than children do). ALT1 is incomplete and does not mention Rofū Miki, which is an important new article that is part of this nomination. I realize that sometimes shorter is sweeter, but in this case poet and composer and date need to be in the hook. I've now removed superfluous cites from the lede, leaving the cites for the substantive qualitative material. I've added to the lede to clarify that the infant is being carried. I personally prefer the way the lede gives basic info about the title, and the section immediately following elaborates with personal material. In terms of cite order, most all of them are in ascending order; if a bot wants to re-order a couple of others that's fine but there's actually no rule about it. Softlavender (talk) 19:11, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you, - sorry that I was blind for seeing that there's a second bolded article, - something I always avoid, - I'd rather write a new hook about him, but as you like it. - Do you realize that the DYK makes say "subpage=Akatombo, Miki Rofū" which is one article? Please find someone to sort that out, - I can't. At present, credits go to three people who wrote that article ;) - I will review the author, but not right now. - Thanks for the lesson about "nostalgic", - in German, "nostalgisch" comes with a notion of clinging to the past too much, also a Kitsch connotation. - There's no DYK rule about ascending refs, and I will still approve it if not, but GA reviewers look for it. - Lovely, the phrase "if a bot wants" ;) - Will return after a few things I promised in the morning. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:45, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
- Note on DYK creation credits: Because of the way this template was created, the creation credits were in error. I adjusted them to reflect the fact that: (1) Softlavender, Sam Sailor, and Mortee created Akatombo, and Softlavender and Mortee created Rofū Miki. Please confirm that this is correct. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 21:43, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
- More precisely: Softlavender and Sam Sailor expanded Akatombo (none of us created it, and the article creator made a thorough botch of his half-assed attempt at creating it, which I why I'm not listing his name). Mortee created (and should get full credit for) Rofū Miki. Can you change accordingly? Thanks. Softlavender (talk) 21:59, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
- Creation and expansion are the same in DYK's eyes. So it's creation credits on Akatombo for Softlavender and Sam Sailor, and a creation credit on Rofū Miki for Mortee. I corrected the credit lines accordingly. Yoninah (talk) 22:03, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
- Also added a nomination credit to Softlavender for Miki Rofū, and fixed the DYK nompage links template to link to the article history of the individual articles. Note that these two articles will be the fourth and fifth DYK credits, so all future DYK nominations will require a QPQ review. BlueMoonset (talk) 07:31, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- Ha! Thanks BlueMoonset. I've actually done three QPQ reviews in the past (even though not necessary), but this time I got addicted to finding and adding more stuff to the article(s) I had nominated, especially since Google kept threatening to blank out the four pages of a GoogleBook link I was citing from, and also since half the stuff on these subjects is in Japanese and hard to find. Thanks again to all, Softlavender (talk) 07:38, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- More precisely: Softlavender and Sam Sailor expanded Akatombo (none of us created it, and the article creator made a thorough botch of his half-assed attempt at creating it, which I why I'm not listing his name). Mortee created (and should get full credit for) Rofū Miki. Can you change accordingly? Thanks. Softlavender (talk) 21:59, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you, - sorry that I was blind for seeing that there's a second bolded article, - something I always avoid, - I'd rather write a new hook about him, but as you like it. - Do you realize that the DYK makes say "subpage=Akatombo, Miki Rofū" which is one article? Please find someone to sort that out, - I can't. At present, credits go to three people who wrote that article ;) - I will review the author, but not right now. - Thanks for the lesson about "nostalgic", - in German, "nostalgisch" comes with a notion of clinging to the past too much, also a Kitsch connotation. - There's no DYK rule about ascending refs, and I will still approve it if not, but GA reviewers look for it. - Lovely, the phrase "if a bot wants" ;) - Will return after a few things I promised in the morning. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:45, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
- ALT2: ... that Akatombo, or "Red Dragonfly", written by poet Rofū Miki and composed by Kosaku Yamada, is one of the most-loved Japanese songs?
- Hi, I'm thinking maybe Gerda was right and maybe this needs paring down; so I'm offering an ALT2 for more emphasis on the basics. I'm not sure that I put it in the right place; if it needs to go up top please move it. But I do agree that a short version may be more likely to be checked out than the long version. Softlavender (talk) 10:59, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- I like the ALT. I think we don't need any quotation marks here, - they are to distinguish an incipit from other text, but here the Japanese is only on word, and the English in brackets. Will return after some things I promised. - The placement of the hook is good down here, but it should not have been below the "Please do not write below this line" ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:03, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- I've now tweaked ALT2 to remove the first quotation marks and the word "symbolist". I personally think using the word "song" twice is redundant and poor writing. Softlavender (talk) 08:20, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
- Back. My version would be
- I like the ALT. I think we don't need any quotation marks here, - they are to distinguish an incipit from other text, but here the Japanese is only on word, and the English in brackets. Will return after some things I promised. - The placement of the hook is good down here, but it should not have been below the "Please do not write below this line" ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:03, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- Hi, I'm thinking maybe Gerda was right and maybe this needs paring down; so I'm offering an ALT2 for more emphasis on the basics. I'm not sure that I put it in the right place; if it needs to go up top please move it. But I do agree that a short version may be more likely to be checked out than the long version. Softlavender (talk) 10:59, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
Japanese red dragonfly
ALT3: ... that the song Akatombo, or "Red Dragonfly" (pictured), written by the poet Rofū Miki and composed by Kosaku Yamada, is one of the most-loved Japanese songs?- which reflects that I think "symbolist" will not attract more readers, nor the licensed but a bit sad images. You can't see a thing on the monument image, without explanation, and the poet looks withdrawn to me. If you still want "him", the hook needs pictured. If you want the dragonfly it needs to be in the article. I looked at the poet's article and am ready to approve it AGF. The song, well, can you please reword this:
- "The poem is written in the voice of a youth or young adult, recalling his infancy being carried on the back of his sister or nursemaid. The speaker is now longing for this mother figure – who married at the age of 15, moved away, and no longer sends news back to the speaker's village."
- I bet you can say more clearly that the mother is missed, not any "mother-figure", - or did I misunderstand that as well? - Whatever, "this mother figure – who married at the age of 15" is difficult to understand. You might want to speak about his biographical background first and then put the poem in relation, no?
- One more question related to the names (in both articles): I am not familiar with Japanese names, - what's surname, what's given name? So I am surprised that the poet is called Miki (first in his name), but the composer Yamada (second in his name). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:08, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
- My opinion is/was that the image should not be the dragonfly; the article is not about the insect and it is not linked or mentioned in any of the hooks.
(I could however be convinced if more people opined; let's get some more commenters.)I did not add "(pictured)" to any of the hooks because there are two images to choose from, if indeed an image is used. The person in the song is not the speaker's mother, but is a mother figure. I have now added a slight clarification in parentheses that the person referred to could be either a sister or a nursemaid -- different translators have used one or the other, and I'm not familiar enough with Japanese to make a judgment. The description of the lyrics needs to precede any background information on the author. I agree the inconsistent order of the surnames and forenames of the poet and composer was confusing, and I have just now conformed them both to Western style (which actually also matches Google). Softlavender (talk) 06:42, 27 February 2017 (UTC)- The dragonfly is the title, mentioned in all hooks, - the hook can certainly be without any image, but if an image I think a poetic one will get more attention than the pale dignity of a man. I think we agreed to not have the monument image, no?
Thank you for the clarifications. Do I get right that the moving away at age 15 etc. is part of the poem? That was not clear until now, and feel free to make it even clearer. "mother figure" seems not a poetic term, and a figure can't move, I'd say, but it may be my lack of English again. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:17, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
- My opinion is/was that the image should not be the dragonfly; the article is not about the insect and it is not linked or mentioned in any of the hooks.
- I'm not sure what if anything is still unclear about the text (see the full translation of the poem in the External Links, which we cannot post in the article because of copyright), and "mother figure" is a very common and widely used term, just like "father figure".
In terms of image, I like both the monument and the poet, and would rather not exclude or choose any without at least a third opinion. Also, I see that you have now struck the original hook, but I think that should still be an option, especially if we are going to get a third opinion about the image and especially since the article on Rofū Miki hasn't been reviewed yet. Softlavender (talk) 09:31, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what if anything is still unclear about the text (see the full translation of the poem in the External Links, which we cannot post in the article because of copyright), and "mother figure" is a very common and widely used term, just like "father figure".
- I have struck the first hook, because I don't approve it, as not getting to the key point: most-loved. Another reviewer can approve that if you want to go for it. - It is not clear to me if a mother figure can move, or be longed form but I may be the only one ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:46, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
- If you still do not understand the term, I have already posted two links above to educate you. I now notice that the image has to be used in the article, so I have struck ALT3, since the dragonfly image is not in the article, nor should it be, as the article is not about the insect and is too cluttery already. -- Softlavender (talk) 10:03, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
- On the question of image, I agree that the dragonfly is more appealing (though any of the three would be fine by me). Mightn't it fit in Akatombo alongside the blockquote that begins "The song uses the imagery of red dragonflies ..."? The article is about the song, but (literally speaking) the song is about the dragonfly, so it seems like a valid inclusion, and potentially helpful to a reader who might not know what such a dragonfly looks like. (More helpful than an image of either the author or the composer, arguably, if we're trying to cut down on clutter) Mortee (talk) 00:07, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
- If you still do not understand the term, I have already posted two links above to educate you. I now notice that the image has to be used in the article, so I have struck ALT3, since the dragonfly image is not in the article, nor should it be, as the article is not about the insect and is too cluttery already. -- Softlavender (talk) 10:03, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
- I have struck the first hook, because I don't approve it, as not getting to the key point: most-loved. Another reviewer can approve that if you want to go for it. - It is not clear to me if a mother figure can move, or be longed form but I may be the only one ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:46, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
- Please note, I've moved Miki Rofū to Rofū Miki at Softlavender's suggestion, so that both articles now use Western name order rather than Japanese. It seems to have auto-updated this page, but we should double check before anything's posted that we're using "Rofū Miki" consistently. Mortee (talk) 23:43, 27 February 2017 (UTC)