Talk:World War II casualties/Archive 1

Early discussion

Why Post war alleged casulaties of Germany, should be listed among war casualties?? It is unlogical. AM

We have added this fact because it is seen as a result of the war and because explicitly noting prevents people like you from incorrectly altering the total war dead to include it with no notation. Preemptive action in other words. Rmhermen 23:41, Oct 17, 2003 (UTC)

then why you did not add number victims of Stalin deportation to the list as well. The number is nonsense. There were 2 200 000 people expelled from Poland and similar number from Czechoslowakia, in case of Poland victims could be counted on thousands at most, Czechoslowakia the highest number I saw was 200 000 AM. The matter of fact, the number maybe 1 000 000 total, 90% of it during the war. This is POV.

What the!!! France and Free French are listed as allied power, while Polish soldiers are listed as one of attacked countries? Is there a reason why Polish army is worse treatened than French?? And why Poles dying in Tobruk, Narvik, battle of England, battle of Atlantik, Falaise, Monte Cassino and numerous other battles are counted as from country attacked by Nazis, and French are not? The list is ABSURD!!!

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It is also a list of military casualties. Perhaps this should be made apparent in the title, or some data on civilian casualties added?

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Romania and Italy fought on both sides, but they aren't listed at allies casualities. MihaiC

I found here (http://www.actrus.ro/biblioteca/cursuri/istorie/babos_2/capitol_8.html) more details about romanians casualities (unfortunatelly is in romanian). There were 300,000 dead, wounded and missing in the east and 168,000 dead, wounded and missing in the west. MihaiC 5 Feb 2004

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It says that the Soviet Union lost 19,180,000 soldiers, can that be right? It then says that the total number of Allied soldiers lost was 17.2 million... something doesn't wash. - Eisnel 07:29, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Meaning of Casualties

I linked through to this page from the main ww2 page. I think the fundamental problem with this article and a possible reason for the conflicting figures is that what the cacasualties is referring to here is not clear. The actual meaining of the word casualties refers to those not only killed, but also those injured, however in this context i think it would be fair to say that casualties could be taken as meaing deaths (i think for the most part this is what the majority of the figures reflect), in some cases where the numbers seem to be overly large (e.g. US Civilian) i think it may also refer to injuries. The easiest way to fix this would be to simly count deaths and make this clear (possibly change the name to World War 11 deaths). It would be very difficult to get even partly accurate figures of overall deaths and injuries form any of the listed countries let alone ones such as the USSR, China and Germany, there's a much better chance of accuraccy if it just refers to deaths.

On a general note some of the figures seem to be completely wrong anyway, for example the number given for Australian military casualties (i think actually referring to deaths) was about 16,000 less than the official stats (AWM), you could give or take a few hundred here and there or maybe even 1or 2 thousand, but 15000 when your only talking in the 10's of thousands is a big inaccuracy. The Australian War Memorial(AWM) site's page on casualties [1] gives vastly different stats for a number of other countries as well. The AWM is regarded as being one of the best war museums in the world and subsequently one of the best recorders of ww1 and ww2 history form not only Australia's perspective but the overall wars in general, so the stats given by them may be a better starting point for this page than the ones currently given.

new name

World War II casualties reflects the name of World War I casualties. Kingturtle 05:34, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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How about the casualties in the former Dutch East Indies / Indonesia? Weren't there any casualties? Meursault2004 11:35, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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I am not an expert on World War II casualties by any means, and I'd prefer not to get embroiled in a big political or ideological dispute. However, I think the most ridiculous thing on this page is the total of "50,048,383" casualties. Has anyone heard of significant figures? The number of Brazilian soldiers killed is listed as 943, which I have no reason to dispute. But consider the number of Yugoslavian soldiers, listed as 300,000. Surely there were not exactly 300,000 Yugoslavian soldiers killed; the number was a bit higher or a bit lower, and it was estimated to the nearest ten thousand or hundred thousand. In fact, it's entirely possible that the true number is 304,273 or 292,117, both of which can easily round to 300,000. So adding the Brazilian casualties to the Yugoslavian casualties and getting a seemingly-exact result of 300,943 is meaningless and implies a much higher precision than it really has. The total of 50,048,383 at the end is just absurd. I see no justification at all for thinking that we can get any more precise than, say, 50.0 million deaths, with three significant digits. --Bkell 23:14, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I didn't notice this comment at the time, but you're absolutely right. I wasn't thinking straight when I thought of adding the totals. Looks like someone's fixed it now :-) Thanks for pointing it out Bkell! Another thing: I suspect the totals do not correlate (within 3 s.f.) with the figures any more, but I'm too lazy to add them up again. Anyone know of a convenient way to maintain the totals? --Ejrh 14:07, 2004 May 12 (UTC)

Brazil - casualities

On 23 Mar 2004, user Pinnecco changed casualities of Brazilian soldiers, from 940 to 490, noting this as a "minor change" on Allied Soldiers killed, however many sources say 940 not 490 deaths. Anyone can give information on this? Is what he changed... confirmed? Planckton 07:50, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I may have found the reason on This page. It appears that about 490 were killed at sea.say1988 17:15, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

US Casualties Question

Did more Americans die in the Pacific fighting the Japanese or did more die against the Germans? I read somewhere that said more Americans died in Europe. I became suspicious because US only fought against the Germans briefly in North Africa and less than 1 year from D-Day to April 1945 on the Western Front while the US had been fighting the Japanese since Pearl Harbor in late 1941.--Secret Agent Man 21:12, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

6,000 US Civilian casualties?

I was looking at this article, curious to see whether Australian civilian casualties were listed (there were a few hundred IIRC, Darwin was bombed on several occasions), and came across the figure of 6,000 US civilian casualties. I didn't see that listed on the source page, so I'm wondering where the figure was from. Does it include civilian shipping, or military nurses, for instance? --Robert Merkel 06:17, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Found it This page gives "United States: Civilian: Britannica: 6,000. So presumably it comes from Britannica. Rmhermen 13:08, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)

I'm assuming that was in the Philippines, because at the time it was US territory.

Philippines is listed seperately with 100000. The 6000 does seem high though. Perhaps there were casualties in Guam (which I believe was US territory) or other islands, and maybe some civilians on ships plus those from Pearl Harbour, but I dont see it adding up to 6000, this just seems a little of to me.say1988 17:10, July 19, 2005 (UTC) edit:After leeoking at the page given above, this may include merchant mariners, which could easily add up to that 5,600 merchant marine casuslties, plus american civilians killed in Guam , wake pearlharbor and other commercial flights .

Norwegian Military casualties

Could someone come up with the numbers and add them to the list? I know we (ie; Norway) lost more than a few good men during both the campain in Nowray in 1940, and also later in the war, espesially in the airwar. --Nomist 12:31, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Denmark Military: Britannica: 1,800 HarperCollins: 4,339 Info. Please: 4,339 Civilian: Ellis: 1,000 Britannica: 2,000 All: Messenger: 7,000 Page is on the 6000 US casualties heading

Military/Civilian

If only 'military' casualties, then why does it include the Jews of Poland in the Polish figures? An interesting question: should the victims of the Holocaust/Shoa be counted as casualties of WWII or not? --Nomist 12:31, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Please take note that the Polish Jews are included only in the World_War_II_casualties#Civilians_killed chapter. If your question is why the civilian casualties are included in the list of civilian casualties, then I can't help you. Anyway, why are the Jews treated separately? I mean, why is the approximate number of citizens of Jewish descent listed while there is no mention of other nationalities? I think we should stick to citizenship and leave the nationality thingie alone. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 17:05, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

You're right to point out my confusion - yes, they are listed as civilian casualties under the 'civilians killed' heading. But my real question is whether or not we should include the victims of the Nazi Holocaust in statistics about deaths caused by the war. Anyway, for the sake of some clarity/consistency, I'm tempted to take out the bits in brackets after the Dutch and Polish figures, and add a note at the top of the table, saying that the figures include victims of the Nazi Holocaust. What do you think? --Nomist 17:26, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. Especially that being a Jew in 2004 is something completely different than being a Pole who had some Jewish ancestors several generations back and was declared a Jew by the Nazis. Such distinctions seem arbitrary to me and IMO they don't belong to an encyclopaedia. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 22:01, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

There were apparently far more than 3 million german military WWII dead !

There's a new, authoritative study of german military historian Ruediger OVERMANS, "Deutsche militaerische Verluste im zweiten Weltkrieg" (first 1999, Oldenbourg, Munich). Overmans questions the usually mentioned and accepted numbers of around 3.2 (to 3.5) german military dead, WWII. There were at least 5 Million german military dead in second world war, Overmans argues. Main reasons for the faulty ~3.2 million number: german recording system finally collapsed around 1944/45. More than a million missing (= also dead) were disregarded; another problems must taken into consideration, that hindered a somewhat accurate documentation of german military dead of WWII: fragmentary SS and other paramilitary organizations' records, the point "Volksdeutsche", the splitting up of the nazi reich with following mess, etc.

WernerE, Feb 18, 2005

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Two Indias?

In the Allied Military list there are two figures for "India", one of the links lead to British Raj and the other to plain old India. What is up with this? Is it a split of the real India casualties, is it data from conflicting sources? Danthemankhan 22:07, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

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There were Three Indias in the war:

British India or India. 2.64 million troops.

Princely India whose troops had captured Damascus in 1918 and Jerusalem. Their troops stopped Rommell at El Alamein and then died in numbers at Monte Cassino.

Free India of Subhash Chandra Bose. Independent Indian troops fighting British along japanese and capturing two British Indian provinces, Andamans and Manipur.

Added by Berndd

Dont forget number four, the Legion Freies Indien/Infanterie-Regiment 950 (indische)- The Nazi SS unit formed from Indian POW volunteers.

--Berndd11222 20:21, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

German civil casualties

Although apparently a factual error and misjudgement, the number of more than 2 million german civilian dead is announced here (but in brackets one can find: "200.000 to 2.000.000"). What should be taken for serious ?! There's no doubt that about half a million germans died in allied air raids and ground combat actions on the western front (in 1944/45) - the question is, how many civil germans died in eastern germany, final months of the war and at expulsion ? ...Notice that, for example, the well known claim of 270.000 german dead at expulsion out of Czechoslovakia alone is unsustainable. Recent researches had the result that about the tenth part of this number meets reality, horribly enough. See: Detlef Brandes (ed.): "Erzwungene Trennung", 1999. WernerE, 25.3.05

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The numbers does not seem to be added correct

The total numbers of Axis and Allied soldiers does not seem to add up. I did not change anything, but its easy to see (should be 18,1 - not 19,2 from the subtotals). There may be some other casualties included, but if so they should be stated. It is maybe wise to just list numbers in whole millions in the sum, as there is huge problems in finding out a total. Ulflarsen 20:07, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Finland was not an axis power

It is true that Finland was allied with Germany in WWII, but Finland was definitely not a member of the Axis. Perhaps there could be a section called "Other countries" or such?

Finland certainly wasn't an axis power during Winter war, but since it was allied with Germany during Continuation war, I'd count it as Axis power from 1941 to -44 that war. Of course it'd be hard to put it to the piecharts, since some (maybe a quarter) of the deads came before or after Axis-period.

The footnotes give a breakdown of Finland's losses--Berndd11222 17:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Chinese Civilians

32,000,000 seems to be more than other sources indicate. Rich Farmbrough 13:03, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes could somebody please verify this claim. Moreover, the total number of casualties doesn't match with the 32 million Chinese.

I agree with the two above posters. Even if you include ALL the civilian deaths caused by the Imperialist Forces from the Manchurian Incident in 1931 to the end of WWII in 1945, China couldn't have lost more than 20 million civilians.--Secret Agent Man 21:06, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Again: German military casualties

Statement - Deutsches Historisches Museum Berlin:

http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/wk2/kriegsverlauf/wehrmacht/index.html

...17 million served, of whom 4.7 million died, until 8th May, 1945.

WernerE, 27 Apr 2005

I've heard that Germany suffered around 30 000 casualties. Which must have been over half the population at the time, so that's huge. But I believe I've heard this more than once. The stats here show 'only' 7 760 000. Quite a discrepancy. Have I misunderstood something somewhere? This is somwhat important, sicne I've already included it in the main WWII article. DirkvdM 10:47, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

India twice?

Noticed that. Lotsofissues 09:39, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

comment to the unknown German/USSR specialist

Dear comrade, it's very misleading to exclude millions of pow deaths of both sides. Therefore I have changed the numbers. It would be very nice if you name any serious source for your claims, Thanks, A German 23 May 2005

P.S.: It would be better if you place your arguments on this side instead of adding them to the article. And, you see, the purpose of this site is not to discuss any "fighting efficiency" or sth. like that - here should shown the death toll of ww-2, nothing more.

Australian casualties...

It seems trivial compared to the catacylsms that affected much of Europe and Asia, but for completeness it'd be nice to have an accurate assessment of how many Australian civilians were killed in WWII.

This page lists 31 civilian casualties in Darwin, but there were bombings in a number of other northern towns, I'll have to see what else I can dig up. --Robert Merkel 03:57, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

this AWM page cites 735 civilian casualties. --Robert Merkel 04:02, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That second source there also says that there were 39,366 Australian military deaths (i.e. not counting wounded), so where does the figure of 23,400 in this article come from? Grant65 (Talk) 13:48, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Dunno, that's a good question. I suspect the AWM figure is probably reasonably accurate. --Robert Merkel

Pies charts

Should the Pie charts be "from" each country, not "in" each country, otherwise it shows that more allied casualties occured in the US than france, and virtually noe occured in the pacific/southeast asia.say1988 17:24, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Something else, though. Wouldn't a total pie chart make more sense (at least alongside these two)? DirkvdM 10:47, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Italy

shouldn't italy's civilian casualties be included? It may be difficult to place them in the charts, but it make it look like there were none. Romania and bulgaria are the same. say1988 17:28, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Combined?

1. On the main page there should be a combined total number deaths of human beings during the period of WW2 as a result of the war, civilian or likewise, irrespective of their political side.

2. The number of total human deaths as part of the second world war (see above) should be exported to wikipedia's official world war 2 page.

Also, the size of the soviet unions casualties in the pie charts seems disproportional to their actual losses in the table.

Indian Civilian Casulties

Currently the table states that approximately 2,150,000 Indian civilians died in the War. Where did this figure come from? The Japanese never reached India itself so how did so many INdian civilians die? Lisiate 04:03, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Mostly of starvation. See Bengal famine of 1943. Grant65 (Talk) 13:50, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Ahh, that explains it. Thanks for clearing that up. Lisiate 21:17, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Polish - Soviet losses in World War Two

The data for Poland includes the territory ceded by Poland to the USSR in 1945. The Soviets also pick up this territory, with about 10.0 Million people, in their population base. The Soviets considered this territory as part of the USSR in October 1939.

Polish losses should be allocated as follows

Western Poland 1939 Population 23.4 Million, War Losses - 3.300 Million (A)

Territory Ceded to USSR 1939 Population 11.6 Million, War Losses - 2.300 Million (B)

(A)- Includes 2 Million Jews, 1.2 Million Poles and .2 Million ethnic Germans

(B)- Includes 1 Million Jews, .7 Million Poles and .6 Million others( Ukrainians & Russians)

--Berndd11222 22:57, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Japanese War Losses

Japanese war losses were the subject of an official report by General McArthur's staff in Tokyo in 1948. The report entitled "Annual Changes in Population of Japan Proper 1 October 1920- 1 October 1947" is a detailed analysis of the demographic impact on Japan due to World War Two. The data in this report indicates that Japan suffered about 3.1 Million excess deaths due to the war and its aftermath. At that time an additional 767,000 Japanese were missing or awaiting repatriation in the USSR and China.

The author John Dower in his books "War Without Mercy" and "Embracing Defeat" cites Japanese sources which list a total of 2.6 Million Japanese dead due to the war. Military deaths(1937-45) are listed as 1,740,955, civilians killed in bombings as 393,367, civilians killed on Okinawa at 150,000 and 300,000 Japanese as missing and presumed dead after being captured by the Soviets in Manchuria. This does not include excess deaths due to hunger and disease after the war and deaths due to radiation exposure in the atomic bombings. --Berndd11222 22:57, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Total combined loss of life

1. There was descrimination in both this article and the main ww2 article concerning the total deaths only being those of the allies.

2. Changed and calculated all statistics on both this page to draw a irrispective number of human deaths disreguarding political afilliation. I believe this is in order to maintain wikipedias stance of nutrality.

>>refer to previous revisions of both this page and ww2 drawing the total loss of life directly from that of the allies and not taking into account those of the axis.

Ethiopian War Dead 1935-41

The Official Report published by the Ethiopian government in 1946 listed the following casualties as a result of the Italian invasion and occupation

Military Dead: 353,500

Civilian Dead in Bombings: 17,800

Victims of massacres & executions: 89,000

Deaths due to "privations owing to destruction of villages" 300,000

Total 760,300

Italy's War Crimes in Ethiopia- 1946 (reprinted 2000) ISBN 0-9679479-0-1

--Berndd11222 21:30, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

German Military Dead- Countries of origin

"Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkreig" by R. Overmans lists on page 335 the national origin of German war dead:

Germany & Danzig 4,456,447

Annexed Territories (Polish corridor, Sudetenland, Memel) 206,452

Alsace Lorraine 30,135

Austria 260,749

Slovenia 4,000

Eastern Europe (Baltic States, Poland, Rumania, Hungary) 328,178

Western Europe: Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, Norway & Denmark 29,132

Others 3,000

Grand Total 5,318,093

Note: This DOES NOT include 215,000 Soviet citizens killed while fighting with the German wehrmacht and listed separately by the German High Command. They were not covered by Overmans.

It should be pointed out that Overmans derived his data taking a sample of German High Command records using statistical analysis to estimate losses. These figures are not an actual count of war losses.

--Berndd11222 13:19, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Italian War Losses

The official Italian statistics on war losses are listed in - Ufficio Storico dello Stato Maggiore dell'Esercito. Commissariato generale C.G.V. . Ministero della Difesa - Edizioni 1986)

This is a Summary of the data:

Losses 1940 to Sept 1943

Military : 197,066

Civilian: In War Zones- 3,208 and 25,000 killed in air raids

Losses Sept 1943-May 1945

Military: Partisans Italy 17,488;with Partisans in Balkans 9,249; In Germany 1,478; POW's killed by Germans 41,432; with Allied Army in Italy 5,927; with Italian Fascist forces 13,000 and 27,731 POWS in Allied hands ( USSR)

Civilians: Partisan war 37,288; by Germans 23,446; by Fascists 2,500; 38,939 in air raids and in allied captivity 300.

Grand Total: Military Dead 313,371; Civilians 130,681

--Berndd11222 23:20, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

German Civilian War losses

Total German losses from 1939 to 1946 are given as 6.9 Million by Peter Marshalck in his "Bevölkerungsgeschichte Deutschlands"- (in German territory of 1937) . In "Deutsche militärische verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg" by Rüdiger Overmans the total military losses are given as 4.4 million(in pre war Germany only). How do we account for the remaining 2.5 million non combatants? The following is a summary of these losses.

A. Germans from Prussia/Schlesia -Overmans in his above mentioned work estimates that 690,000 German civilians were killed in the Soviet 1945 offensive and Polish occupation. A Polish historian Stanislaw Schimitzek estimated the losses as being 556,000 in "Truth or Conjecture" published in Warsaw (1966). Most of these losses occured from January-May 1945 during the fighting.

B. Allied Bombings- "The US Strategic Bombing Survey" estimates that 410,000 civilians were killed in air raids.

C. Nazi Terror- R. J. Rummel in his work "Democide" estimates 763,000 Germans as being victims of the Hitler period.

D. Soviet Justice- K. W. Fricke in "Politik und Justiz in der DDR" gives 90,000 Germans accused of war crimes as being executed by the Soviets or dying in Soviet prisons.

E: Excess Deaths 1945-46 -Due to the conditions after the war an estimated 300,000 additional Germans died of hunger or disease. The death rate in the Soviet Zone went from 1.2% to an estimated 2.2% in 1946.

F: Germans remaining in Poland- An estimated 200,000 Germans who remained in Poland were listed as dead or missing. The official West German government report on German Expellee losses published in 1958 estimated 1.1 Million Germans remaining in Poland in 1950. This was revised upward to 1.3 Million in "Die deutschen Vertribenen in Zahlen" by G. Reichling in 1986.

G .The above cited work by Overman's also estimates the civilian losses suffered by the ethnic German civilians in eastern Europe( outside Germany's 1937 borders) as being about 400,000. These losses are in addition to those mentioned above within Germanys 1937 borders. Most of these losses occurred from January-May 1945 during the fighting.

--Berndd11222 00:41, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

H. Notice that Rolf-Dieter Müller (known and respected german military historian) states in his recent work Der letzte deutsche Krieg 1939-1945 (2005)(p. 333), that german civilian death toll in WW-2 was around 1,1 million - claims that there were up to 2 million or more dead can't be proved and no longer maintained. WernerE, 7 October 2005

The direct civilian losses related to the war were about 1.1 Million, (400,000 in the bombings and 700,000 due to the Soviet offensive in 1945). However the total demographic losses related to the war were 6.6 million. After subtracting military losses of 4.4 million and the above mentioned direct civilian losses one still must explain the additional loss of 1.1 million civilians. The Nazis were responsible for at least 600,000 of these deaths ( 160,000 Jews, 70,000 euthanasia victims and 400,000 plus political prisoners). Also famine deaths of at least 300,000 in Germany during 1945-46 must be taken into account. These losses would not have occurred if there was no war. The harsh justice of the Soviet occupiers accounted for at least 100,000 more Germans. The war did not end for the Germans in May 1945, an ugly reality must be taken into account when one computes war losses--Berndd11222 17:01, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

--no wonder that it "didn't end", cause Germany lost the war in the end./ One can not consider german victims of the euthanasia and holocaust etc. as "war dead". It's a question how to define the item "war dead" at all. To say it directly: You shouldn't place the later war dead SS-killer and his victims in same category - in general the term "german war dead" is understood as military war dead plus civilian victims of warfare (bombing, ground) plus victims of expulsion. (another point: e.g. dead "Volksdeutsche" from yugoslavia are per definitionem no Germans in this sense, but abroad citizens). WernerE, 09.10.2005.

The losses I referred to in my comments are in pre war Germany only- 1937 borders- The losses of the ethnic Germans from other European countries are not included in the total of 6.5 Million German dead in the war from direct or indirect causes. The losses of Austria of 400,000 are excluded as well as 900,000 ethnic Germans from eastern Europe.

How to determine total war losses.

Start with the Beginning Population 1939

Add Births

Subtract Natural Deaths(Non war related)

Account for population shifts ( changes in borders and migrations)

Add the numbers and compare the result to the postwar census data.

That will yield the net losses related to the war. The nature of the losses from direct or indirect causes will require further investigation. The losses related to World War Two need to be backed up by solid analysis and the sources verified.

--63.42.44.254 02:21, 10 October 2005 (UTC) Berndd

Poland's War Losses 1939-45

Poland's War Losses 1939-1945 Polish Population (allocation by Religion)

    Population 	 	

A.       Estimated population on 1/1/39 ----------------------------------34,850,000 	
B. 	 Eastern Orthodox, Ukrainian Catholic and Lithuanian population --(7,900,000)	
C. 	 Ethnic German population (Volksdeutsch)--------------------------- (900,000)	
D. 	 Total Polish Roman Catholic  & Jewish population-----------------26,050,000 	

    Population Shifts	

E.       Natural Increase 1/39-2/45   ------------------------------------1,250,000 	
F. 	 Natural Increase 2/46-12/50 -------------------------------------2,080,000 	
G. 	 German population remaining in Oder-Neisse territories-1950----- 1,308,000 	
H. 	 Eastern Orthodox, Ukrainian Catholic and Lithuanian Pop 1950 ------490,000 	
I. 	 Immigration to Poland 1946-50------------------------------------- 152,000 	
J. 	 Poles remaining in USSR after 1950--------------------------------(870,000)	
K. 	 Polish refugees in the west 1950----------------------------------(420,000)	
L. 	 Jewish refugees in the west 1950----------------------------------(140,000)	  		  	

M. 	 Population per Census 12/1950----------------------------------(25,000,000)	

N. 	 Estimated War Losses 1939-45------------------------------------- 4,900,000 	

In addition to the above losses an additional 500,000 former Polish citizens from the Ukrainian Catholic and Eastern Orthodox populations were war dead in the USSR during 1941-45. Losses of the ethnic German population of about 200,000 are also excluded. Total losses would be 5,600,000 if they were included with Polish losses.

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PLEASE NOTE WELL

THIS BALANCE OF 4.9 MILLION WAR DEAD INCLUDES 1.8 MILLION DEATHS WHICH ARE INCLUDED IN USSR WAR LOSSES. THE TERRITORIES WHICH WERE CEDED TO USSR BY POLAND ARE INCLUDED IN THE TOTAL SOVIET 1941 POPULATION OF 196.7 MILLION. WHEN COMPUTING THE TOTAL SOVIET WAR DEAD THE RUSSIANS ASSUME THAT THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF THE TERRITORIES OCCUPIED IN 1939-1940 WERE SOVIET CITIZENS DURING THE ENTIRE WAR PERIOD 1941-45. POLISH HISTORIANS ALSO INCLUDE THE POPULATION IN THESE TERRITORIES AS " POLISH CITIZENS" WHEN COMPUTING WAR LOSSES. IN ORDER TO AVOID A DUPLICATION OF WAR DEAD THESE LOSSES OF 1.8 MILLION MUST APPEAR IN EITHER THE POLISH OR SOVIET TOTAL BUT NEVER IN BOTH.

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  REFERENCES

A. 	 Population Changes in Europe Since 1939- G.Frumkin 1951
        Population Changes in Poland by H. Zielinski-1954 	
        The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954 	
        Maly rocznik statystyczny Polski-Polish Ministry Information -London 1941 		

B. 	  By Religion. Allocated according to 1931 census -
         Maly rocznik statystyczny Polski-Polish Ministry Information -London 1941    
         The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954,
        Protection of minorities in Poland- S. Loszinski-1999 		

C. 	 Detailed in Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen- G. Reichling-1986 
        110,000 German military dead 1939-45, 90,000 civilian dead 1945-50
        670,000 expellees in Germany 1950, 40,000 deported to USSR 		

D.  	 By Religion. Allocated according to 1931 census 
        The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954 
        Maly rocznik statystyczny Polski-Polish Ministry Information -London 1941 
        Polish Roman Catholics 22,750,000, Jews 3,300,000 		

E. 	 My Estimate based on data in Population Changes in Poland by H. Zielinski-1954 
        and The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954 		

F. 	 Population Changes in Poland by H. Zielinski-1954 ,European Historical Statistics-1980 		

G. 	 Die deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen- G. Reichling-1986 ,
        Truth or Conjecture? S.       Schimitzek -1966 		

H. 	 Protection of minorities in Poland- S. Loszinski-1999 		

I. 	 Poland a Historical Atlas- I. Pogonowski 
        Immigration of 150,000 Poles from western Europe 		

J. 	 My estimate based  1959 Soviet census data of former Polish territories. 
        The number of Jews in this total is no more than 70,000. 		

K. 	 European Refugees- M. Proudfoot-1956 
        The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954 		

L.  	 Historical Atlas of East Central Europe- P.R. Magocsi  
        European Refugees- M. Proudfoot-1956 
        The Population of Poland -US Bureau of the Census-1954 		

M. 	 European Historical Statistics-1980 		

N.      Estimated losses -German occupation-4,100,000 ( including 3.0 Million Jews) 		 
        
        Estimated losses -Soviet occupation-400,000 (including Poles in Soviet Army as
        well as Soviet terror) 
        
        Estimated losses -UPA terror-100,000-Poles massacred by Ukrainian forces.             

        Polish Military Dead-100,000 in regular units and up to 60,000 in resistance forces.		

--Berndd11222 01:27, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

This is just excellent and should be in whole included in article somewhere. Note, that indeed Polish historians are including also former Polish citizens (mentioned above in the para that "if we include those, losses would be 5.600.000 etc). AFAIK I've read some five years ago that Polish losses are estimated as 2-3 millions ethnic Poles, 2-3 millions Jewish Poles (the two categories overlap!) and "others", that is Polish citizens, which in total was about 6 millions. That's why the analysis above is quite believable and correct. Szopen 17:28, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Poland's War Losses-1939-45

The US Holocaust Memorial Museum has published a report "Poles as Victims of the Nazi Era" that points out that often quoted figure of 6 Million Poles killed in the war as being incorrect. They point out that historians in post communist Poland now believe that Poland lost between 4.8 and 4.9 Million as a result of the war. The reason for the revision downwards is that the Polish government report of 1947 assumed that all Poles had been repatriated from the USSR. In fact about 900,000 Poles choose to remain in the USSR or were denied permission to leave. After the Stalin era from 1955-58 the USSR allowed 245,000 Poles to emigrate. The 1959 Soviet census of former the Polish territories listed 700,000 persons who gave "Polish" as their ethnic group. Also about 100,000 Poles who were deported during the war still remained in Siberia. The proof of Polish survival in the former Soviet Union is a resurgence of the Roman Catholic church in the western Ukraine and Byelorussia since 1989.

The following two Polish language articles explain in detail why losses were 1.1 to 1.2 million less than what was previously thought.

Both articles appeared in the Polish Journal Dzieje Najnowsze # 2- 1994

Czesław Łuczak - Szanse i trudności bilansu demograficcznego Polski w latach 1939-1945

Krystyna Kersten- Szacunek strat osobowych w Polsce Wschodniej

--Berndd11222 02:37, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Polish-Soviet Losses

For those people who have doubts about a double count of Soviet and Polish losses the following analysis of the population should settle the issue. The Soviets pick up an additional 19.6 million in their population base as a result of the annexations and population shifts of 1939-46. This is broken down as follows: Poland 10 million; the Baltic States 5.3 million; Romania 3.5 million; Czechoslovakia 700,000 and a slice of Mongolia (Tuva) 100,000.
In the case of Poland they occupied territory of 13.2 million in 1939 and gave back 1.5 million in 1945 [2], 2.0 million left to live in Poland(this is per 1950 Polish census data), 300,000 fled to the west as refugees and 600,000 Ukrainians were expelled from Poland to the USSR. The net pickup by the USSR is 10.0 million before war losses are taken into account. The first postwar Soviet census of this region in 1959 yielded 9 million for these territories, the population of the USSR grew 22% from 1945-59. That yields a post war 1945 population of 7.4 million, 2.6 million less than what the Soviets picked up from Poland. The difference of 2.6 million are losses due to to the war and the post war Soviet deportations( about 300,000). The Polish pick up these losses as "Polish Citzens" and count them with Polish losses in modern day Poland of about 3.0-3.3 million. The total losses being about 5.6-5.9 million. The Soviets also pick them up in the total of 26.6 million war dead. We must decide on which line to put the losses, we can't count them twice. I hope this helps.--Woogie10w 22:12, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Yugoslavia Casualties 1941-45

Yugoslav losses during WW2 have been the subject of debate in recent years. Tito stated in 1945 that 1.7 Million died in the war. This became gospel in Yugoslavia until 1990 but has been shown to be incorrect. Yugoslavia suffered a demographic loss of 1.7 Million from 1941-1945, including the deportation of 400,000 ethnic Germans, 140,000 Italians and 80,000 Yugoslav's who fled to the west. The actual losses related to the war were between 1.0 Million and 1.1 Million. This does not include victims of communist terror in the postwar era.

The following sources explain the problem in detail.

The Population of Yugoslavia- U.S. Bureau of Census 1954

Population losses in Yugoslavia during World War Two- Johann Wuscht 1963

Yugoslavia manipulations with the number Second World War victims - Vladimir Zerjavic 1993

--Berndd11222 11:37, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Malta 1939-1945

Malta lost about 2,000 civilians in Axis bombings during the war and about 100 Maltese were killed serving with UK forces. I think these brave people deserve a line on the list of WW2 casualties.

--Berndd11222 11:54, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Africa in World War Two

Africans from the colonies of the UK, Italy and France served and died in the war also. I believe your table includes them in the UK and France totals. Africans served with UK forces in the campaigns in east Africa and Burma, their losses were 4,000 KIA. The French had Africans serving in special colonial divisions, 22,000 were KIA. The Italians had Eritrean and Somali colonial soldiers that fought in the 1935-1941 East Africa campaigns, 8,000 were KIA. It is not clear if they were included with Italian casualties.

The data on African losses mentioned above comes from Poteri Narodonaselenia v 20 veke by Vadim Erlikman.

--Berndd11222 13:09, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Japanese Allied Forces

R. J. Rummel in his book "China's Bloody Century" mentions on page 123 that an estimated 432,000 Chinese died while serving in the puppet forces during the Sino-Japanese War and he also estimated on page 192 that 50,000 puppet soldiers were massacred by the Kuomingtang when the war ended.

Vadim Erlikman in his book " Poteri Narodnaceleniya v 20 Veke" mentions on page 71 that an estimated 100,000 Koreans served in the Japanese military during WW2 and that 10,000 were killed in action. He also estimates that 20,000 Japanese civilians residing in Korea were massacred in 1945 at the time of liberation.

--Berndd11222 01:13, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Civilian losses in Southeast Asia 1941-45

In his Statistics of Democide R. J. Rummel covers the subject of civilian deaths due to the Japanese occupation of Southeast Asia. These losses are also listed in Vadim Erlikman's "Poteri Narrodonaceleniya v 20 Beke"

The following is a recap of civilian losses by both authors.

                Rummel       Erlikman

IndoChina -----------------------487,000 ----------------2,065,000

East Indies ----------------------375,000 ----------------1,990,000

Singapore -----------------------200,000 -------------------75,000

Malaya -------------------------83,000----- -------------------600,000

Burma ---------------------------60,000 ----------------1,070,000

--Berndd11222 01:13, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Hungary's Losses in World War 2

The Centre for Mulitiethnic Research at Uppsala University in Sweden has published a paper entitled " Hungary's Human Losses in World War II" by Tamás Stark. This study was sponsored by the Raoul Wallenberg project in Sweden. Tamás Stark is affiliated with the History Dept. of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences. His summary of Hungary's WW 2 losses is as follows.

Military:

KIA- 110-120,000 including 20-25,000 Jews who died in forced labor units.

MIA- 200,000 POW's who died in Soviet Labor camps.

64 % of these losses are from the territory within Hungary's present borders and the remainder from the territories occupied by Hungary in Rumania, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.

Civilian:

Losses in the territory of Hungary's present borders only:

Jewish Holocaust victims -220,000

Civilians killed in fighting 1944-45 44,000

Total losses in the territory of Hungary's present borders - 470,000.

--Berndd11222 10:05, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

New casualties numbers?

User:Berndd11222 has posted a lot of information above on casualty numbers of WWII. I recommend that a summary is posted here on the discussion page, that is, a summary which states which numbers should be updated, including the current number.

Example:

• Soviet Union, Military: 7 -> 10,6
• Soviet Union, Civilian: 13 -> 17,6
• Soviet Union, Total: 20 -> 27,6

In this way, it will be easier for the users to review and discuss the numbers.

Later, when and if, the numbers in the article are updated, I strongly recommend further use of footnotes for the numbers (as is partly present in the current article). In the footnotes, special explanations can be written and, very importantly, the source(s) stated.

I also believe that the Casualties article should have a dedicated section called "Sources". In this section sources could be listed like this :

Sources

These are the sources used for numbers concerning:

• Soviet Union : Erlikman, Vadim. "Poteri Narodonaselenia v 20 veke"

I would contribute and help this article if I felt I had knowledge on these subjects. Sadly, I don't, so my contribution will be limited to the recommendations I just mentioned. Good luck, however!

Regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 06:54, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Re New casualty numbers?

When I see a casualty statistic I ask the following question:

Is the source reliable?

For example when the UK government reports that 264,000 military dead in World War 2, I consider the data to be reliable.

When I read that Khrushchev announced that the USSR lost 20 Million in World War 2, I checked the numbers.

The methodology is actually quite simple:

Step 1 - Start with the prewar Census Population

Step 2- Add live births

Step 3- Subtract natural deaths( non war related )

Step 4- Adjust for changes in territory. For example add the population of the Baltic states to the USSR total in 1940.

Step 5- Adjust for population movements, immigration and emigration. For example subtract the 400,000 ethnic Germans sent out of the USSR in 1940.

Step 6- Add the data and compare it to the post war census. The result will be your war losses.

In the 1990's the Russians opened the archives and found that the Soviets had falsified the census and vital statistics data, losses were understated. The actual losses were about 27-28 million in the war, including 5 Million behind the lines in Soviet held territory.

As a rule of thumb I always check any claims that are made regarding casualty statistics

I welcome any comments on the notes I have posted on various World War 2 casualty topics.

Bernd --68.236.161.237 17:21, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

SERIOUSLY FLAWED

The article list the number of deaths at nearly seventy million yet the single reference the page uses gives the number at 55 million! The website listed is by no means authoritative and yets is the only source listed. For some reason the Red Army officers killed in Stalin's purge have been listed. The German casualties are almost backward. It is estimated over 4 million German serviceman were killed and about 1.6 million civilians by bombing raids and expulsion by the Red Army. 6,000 U.S. civilian deaths are given, yet the only ones I know of are a family that was killed by a Japanese balloon. Anyone care to explain that. All my figures are taken the from The Second World War by John Keegan which iss regarded by many to be the best one volume book on the war. User:IndieJones|IndieJones]] 22:06, 6 September 2005 (UTC)Actually John Keegan is a falsidfier of hisrtory, For instance in a famed daily telegraph article he claimed prussia nad Austria dexclatred wrar on France, as it had executed it's tyrannmical dictators, actually they dexclared war way beforem, and he was twisting history to suit his royalist pr-nazi viesws.

Re seriously flawed

The US civilian casualties were about 5,000 Merchant Marine. Also 1,000 civilian internees never came home. R J Rummel in his "Statistics of Democide" Page 37 mentions that 590 US civilians died in Japanese captivity. The Nazis interned Americans in Europe, about 200 died including a few Jews killed in the camps.

The table also includes 33,500 UK merchant mariner deaths in the total of 90,000 UK civilians

--Berndd11222 23:09, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Luxembourg war losses

Most of 4,000 military dead were with the German armed forces. About 200 died fighting with the Belgians.

--Berndd11222 00:12, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Iraq May 1941

The Iraqi army lost 1,000 KIA when the British occupied the country in 1941.

--Berndd11222 00:21, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

UK Colonial troops

Check the UK casualty figure of 272,000 includes 8,000 colonial troops.

--Berndd11222 02:05, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

POLAND -Proposed change

POLAND LOSSES WW2

MILITARY- 200,000

CIVILIAN -5,400,000

TOTAL-5,600,000

NOTE- Includes losses in territory ceded to USSR by Poland in 1945 of 2.3 Million

Source- See remarks by Prof. Tadeuz Piotrowski on Polish casualties. http://www.projectinposterum.org/ Go to section entitled- European War Casualties

--Berndd11222 10:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

GERMANY-Proposed change

Losses WW2

MILITARY- 5,300,000

CIVILIAN- 2,600,000

TOTAL- 7,900,000

NOTES:

Military Losses- Germany(1937 Borders)4,440,000; Austria-260,000; Ethnic Germans from other European countries 600,000.

Civilian Losses- Germany(1937 Borders) 2,100,000; Austria- 100,000; Ethnic Germans from other European countries 400,000.

Sources:

Peter Marshalck -"Bevölkerungsgeschichte Deutschlands im 19. und 20. Jahrhundert"

Rüdiger Overmans-"Deutsche militärische verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg"

--Berndd11222 10:22, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

USSR Proposed Change

USSR Losses WW2

Soviet Military - 10,000,000( including 2,600,000 POW's)

Partisan/Milita-400,000

Civilian- 12,600,000

Total- 23,000,000

Notes:

The Russian sources listed below detail these losses.

Does not include 2,300,000 civilian dead in territory ceded to the USSR by Poland in 1945. They are included with Polish losses.

Includes civilian losses of 3.7 Million in Soviet held territory due to hunger and disease.

Additional deaths of 1,700,000 due to Soviet terror are not included in this total.

Sources:

G.F. Krivosheev-Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses - Translation of 1993 Russian publication.

Russian Academy of Sciences-St. Petersburg 1995- Ludskie Poteri SSSR

Erlikman, Vadim. "Poteri Narodonaselenia v 20 veke" -Moscow, Panorama 2004.

Andreev, EM, et al. NASELENIE SOVETSKOGO SOIUZA, 1922-1991. Moscow, Nauka, 1993.

--Berndd11222 10:38, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

JAPANS LOSSES-PROPOSED CHANGES

Japans war losses 1937-45

Military- 1,930,000

Civilian- 700,000

Total- 2,630,000

Notes:

Military losses include 300,000 missing in China and USSR after being captured in 1945 and 185,000 lost in China from 1937-1941.

Losses do not include an estimated 500,000 puppet troops in China

Sources- John Dower - War Without Mercy and Embracing Defeat

Berndd--Berndd11222 16:30, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Hungary's WW2 losses- Proposed Changes

Hungary's WW2 Losses:

Military: 300,000

Civilian: 280,000

Total: 580,000

Note: Military losses are for entire Hungarian Army including men from Slovakia, Rumania and Yugoslavia drafted by the Hungarians. Civilian losses are only for Hungary within its current borders.

Source: Tamás Stark -Hungary's Human Losses in World War II

berndd--Berndd11222 16:59, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Yugoslavia WW2 casualties -Proposed Changes

Yugoslavia WW2 Losses

Military- 300,000

Civilian -800,000

Total - 1,100,000

Source:

Yugoslavia manipulations with the number Second World War victims - Vladimir Zerjavic 1993

berndd--Berndd11222 16:59, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

US WW2 Losses

Per the US Dept of Defense the total losses were 405,399 during WW2

Berndd--Berndd11222 16:57, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

The new numbers

I have a question for the person who posted the new numbers today.

From which source did you copy the numbers?

--Berndd11222 23:28, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Changes back to old

I have made two changes today, September 11 2005, because i feel that for many people the older verion was of a much better design, while not as statistically effective, the Axis, Allies design is more informative and clearer.

Considered, it would be a very effective idea to combine the qualities of the older table and new table, taking the colum headings of the new tables and placeing them in the old axis and allies seperate tables.

I also felt that the newer table was incomplete. It made to many estimates and the totals were overly rough and not correctly combined. I would have done this task myself if it were not for the avaliability of a close enough version in older hashes of this article

I also modified the Combined totals heading that i originally designed and wrote on this article because many recent updates have made it repedative with its statistics, ineffective, overly rough and considerably hard to understand.

I am happy that the figure of 50 million has been applied to deaths in world war two as a close enough estimate. So long as it accounts for the deaths of ALL humans irrespective of their political alignment.

I would think someone would see it fit to change the page back to the newer table. In this case i would request that the totals located at the bottom of the table be cleared up. That there be a clear definition within the table between military and civilian deaths. That there be a combined human deaths, and if possible seperate the table into axis and allies.

As for the combined totals, i still believe the section is a good idea, because it provides statistics of the war in a english fasion. So long as the following formate is maintained:

Sentance 1: Total Human Death numbers Axis and Allies respetivly Sentance 2: Total Human loss of life irrespective of political alignment or military or civilian status. Sentance 3. Total Military and Civilian deaths irrespective of political alignment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.217.26.122 (talk • contribs) 05:20, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I am fine with either versions. But we should make sure to have all numbers add up to about 50 mill (or whatever number we agree on). I made changes to make it so. I also rounded the summary numbers as they aren't possibly known to single digit accuracy. Shanes 05:34, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I am happy with 50 million also, as long as it includes all human deaths irrespective of political alignment. A quick question though, from what sources (mulitple sources are most defininatly neccisary) should we state that the number of deaths should tally 50 million. why not 60 or 45?

Bulgarian Civilian Losses

Bulgaria occupied Thrace and Macadonia during WW2. The Jewish population of 50,000 was turned over to the Germans by the Bulgarians to be sent to the death camps. These deaths should be recorded in Yugoslavia and Greece not with Bulgaria. Most Bulgarian Jews survived the war.

Source: The War Against the Jews - Lucy Dawidowicz- 1975

--Berndd11222 13:16, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Footnote # 16

Hi

Is footnote # 16 a sick joke or just a typo?

--Berndd11222 02:05, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Uhm, some brain cells are beginning to function. I see this has been corrected.

--Berndd11222 19:58, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Your sources need to be listed

What are the sources of the data that you have used for the tables of casualties and losses?

--Berndd11222 10:22, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Losses France

The actual losses per the French government were 212,000 military and 330,000 civilians in WW2.

Source: link title Go to E-Revue- Les pertes français.

--Berndd11222 10:34, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

US Civilian casualties 1941-45

Merchant Marine losses and civilians interned. Their losses of 10,000 need to be listed.

--Berndd11222 10:55, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Hello!! Nr: 69:236.142.8

Don't be shy, let us know who you are. Don't hide behind a number.

You have taken the first step and found that the webmasters numbers don't add down. The next step is to check his numbers to see if they tie out and make sense.

Berndd

Note for "Potemkine"-on French losses

The number you have listed for French military dead includes 40,000 French serving in the German Army.

--Berndd11222 20:05, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Hallo!!! Nr: 142.204.87.219

The number you copied of 37.7 Million deaths during WW2 in the USSR includes natural deaths of 12 Million in addition to war related deaths of about 26 Million.

Natural deaths would include the old timer aged 91 who died of old age as well as the young man aged 19 who walked off a cliff due to sheer stupidity.

--Berndd11222 12:00, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Great work, someone...!

Good god, this page has got a LOT more detail in it since I last was here! Don't know who did it, but my qualified guess is Berndd11222. Anyway, great work! I hate though to state the fact that the table would be nicer if the columns were right-aligned, and I hate to say it because I know that table-making is a f*cking bitch to handle. I don't feel like trying it out now, but hopefully I will return later and give it a try. But, most, importantly, I repeat, great work done with the details on this page!!! Regards, Dennis Nilsson. --Dna-Dennis 16:37, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Name of page/Equipment losses

I don't wish to be pedantic, but "casualties" means human beings. Shouldn't equipment losses be on their own page? Or should the article be renamed Statistics of World War II or something like that? Grant65 (Talk) 13:21, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

"British" losses

I'm also wondering if the figures quoted for the British Army/RAF/RN include personnel from Commonwealth forces, serving in British units. For example, I have read somewhere that about 25% of "RAF" personnel in WW2 were Canadian, the vast majority being actual RCAF personnel in RCAF squadrons, rather than Canadians who had joined the RAF. The same goes for the RAAF, etc. Grant65 (Talk)

Soviet losses

Re-posting a comment by User:Berndd11222 to my talk-page that I think belong here as an explenation/comment on the Soviet losses listed, and comments are welcome.

The Russian sources that I have cited detail Soviet war losses that I have listed. The key point that needs be understood is that 3.3 million Soviet war dead were from the territories annexed in 1939-40 and 1.7 million were victims of Stalinist repression which was in process before the war. If you choose to list 28.0 million Soviet war dead then you must eliminate the Baltic states from the list, reduce Polish losses to 3.0 million and Romaninan losses to 480,000. The Russian publication which I have listed Ludskie Poterie which was published by the Russian Academy of Science in 1995 makes it quite clear that Soviet losses will vary depending on ones assumptions regarding the beginning population in 1939 and the population of the annexed terrirories included in the population base. I hope this clarifies this matter. Barney Dombrowski--Berndd11222 02:17, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

May I add that the great work Barney has done on this page lately is very much apreaciated. This page was in bad need of references for the numbers listed. Thanks, Barney! Shanes 08:23, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

The Soviet Union lost 8,668,000 million soldiers

Russia's War by Prof. Richard Overy tables are found on pages 155, 178 and 238

Deng 10-02-06 05.05 CET

Poland Population 1939-50

                  Poland Population 1939-50

Description	Polish View	Russian View	Difference
Population 1/1/39	34,850,000	34,850,000	0
Transfer to USSR	(7,700,000)	(10,000,000)	2,300,000
Transfer to Germany	(800,000)	(800,000)	0
Natural Increase 1939-1945	1,300,000	1,300,000	0
Natural Increase 1946-1950	2,100,000	2,100,000	0
Germans Remaining in Poland	1,300,000	1,300,000	0
Immigration	150,000	150,000	0
Emigration to the West	(600,000	(600,000)	0
War losses	(5,600,000)	(3,300,000)	(2,300,000)
Census Population 12/1950	25,000,000	25,000,000)	0

Source: The Population of Poland. The U.S. Bureau of census 1954.

This schedule contrasts the Polish and Russian/Soviet views of the population shifts in Poland during the Second World War. The Soviets count the population of the annexed territory in their population base in 1941. The Poles on the other hand assume that the Soviets pick up the surviving population after the war in 1945.

--Berndd11222 02:09, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

                       Poland Population Annexed Territories

Description	Population
Poland occupied by USSR 1939	13,200,000
Bialastok-Przemysl-returned to Poland 1945	(1,500,000)
Transfers to Poland 1944-47-Per 1950 Polish Census	(2,000,000)
Refugees in western countries	(200,000)
Deportation of Poland's Ukrainians to USSR 1944-45	500,000
Subtotal - Population gain by USSR	10,000,000
War Losses	(2,300,000)
Population Surviving war in USSR	7,700,000

This balance was comprised of 6,800,000 Ukrainians and Belorussians, 800,000 ethnic Poles and 100,000 Jews according to the allocation of this regions population in the 1959 Soviet census.

--Berndd11222 17:47, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

USSR Population 1939-46

                  USSR Population 1939-46

Description	Amount
Population 1/1/39	168,525,000
Natural Increase 1939-1946	10,350,000
War Losses	(26,600,000)
Net Population	19,650,000
Population 12/31/46	172,105,000

Source:Andreev, EM, et al. NASELENIE SOVETSKOGO SOIUZA, 1922-1991. Moscow, Nauka, 1993.

This schedule summarizes the balance of the Soviet population from 1939-1946. The beginning population is based on the revised census data for 1939. The Natural increase is based on live births and an assumed death rate at pre-war levels. The war losses are those losses in excess of the pre-war death rate including an increase in infant mortality of 1.3 million. The Population of the annexed territories is net of all transfers up until 12/31/46. The ending population of 1946 is an estimate. The first post war Soviet census was taken in 1959.--Berndd11222 11:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

USSR War Losses 1941-1945

                  USSR War Losses 1941-1945

Description	Amount
Recorded Military Losses	8,600,000
Other Losses	18,000,000
Victims of Soviet Repression	1,700,000
Total Losses	28,300,000
Less:
Losses in Annexed territories	(3,400,000)
Losses with German Forces	(200,000)
Victims of Soviet Repression	(1,700,000)
Net Soviet War Losses	23,000,000

--Berndd11222 11:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Sources:

Andreev, EM, et al. NASELENIE SOVETSKOGO SOIUZA, 1922-1991. Moscow, Nauka, 1993.

Russian Academy of Sciences-Ludskie Poteri SSSR. St. Petersburg 1995 .

V. Erlikman. Poteri Narodonaseleniya V 20 Veke: Moscow 2004.

Military Losses that were registered numbered 8,600,000. Estimates of unrecorded military losses range from 500,000 to 2,000,000. Losses in the annexed territories were as follows, Poland 2,300,000, the Baltic states 750,000 Romania 300,000 and Czechoslovikia 50,000. Soviet era sources list losses of civilians in the territories occupied by Germany at 13.7 million. Contemporary Russian sources believe that between 2.5 and 4.0 Million Soviet citizens died of famine in the territory of the U.S.S.R. not occupied by the Germans. --Berndd11222 11:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Population of Territories Annexed by USSR 1939-45

                  Population of Territories Annexed by USSR 1939-45

Description	Amount
Poland	10,000,000
Baltic States	5,350,000
Romania	3,500,000
Czechoslovakia	700,000
Tanna Tuva	100,000
Total Annexed territories	19,650,000

Sources:

Andreev, EM, et al. NASELENIE SOVETSKOGO SOIUZA, 1922-1991. Moscow, Nauka, 1993.

Russian Academy of Sciences-Ludskie Poteri SSSR. St. Petersburg 1995 .

| Note: Balance net after population transfers and repatrations.--Berndd11222 11:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Equipment losses USSR

Equipment losses and weapons production of USSR in World War 2 are detailed in *^ G. I. Kirosheev Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses. Greenhill 1997 ISBN 1-85367-280-7 --Berndd11222 21:22, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Why Poland did not loose 6 Million in WW2

One often sees the statistic of 6 Million as being the losses of Poland in the Second World War. The origin of this figure is an official Polish government report prepared in 1947. The report used as its base population 27,007,000 Poles and Jews out of total population of 34,849,000 in 1939. The allocation was based on the 1931 census based on language usage. In this total were 5,193,000 Poles and Jews in the territory that was ceded to the USSR in 1945. The report concluded that total losses were 6,028,000 without giving any detail of how it was calculated. The reader was expected to accept the word of the Polish government at face value. This statistic was accepted by historians for over forty years as being correct. After the fall of communism in Poland historians analyzed the question of losses during the Second World War. A conference was held in Warsaw in 1993 on the topic of war losses and the conclusion reached was that Poland lost 3 million Jews and 1.8 to 2.0 million ethnic Poles. Why was the total lowered by 1.0 to 1.2 million? The primary reason was that 1.4 million Poles were denied permission leave the USSR after the war or they choose to stay. When the report was prepared in 1947 the government in Warsaw assumed that all Poles had been repatriated and the remainder were war losses. Also after 1947 Polish demographers determined that the population grew by 300,000 more than what was originally thought which increased war losses. The population base used to calculate Polish losses has been expanded recently to include the other ethnic groups in Poland in 1939, ethnic Ukrainians, Byelorussians and Germans. By adding these other ethnic groups one can increase losses by including all Polish citizens in 1939.

SOURCES

Poles as Victims of the Nazi Era prepared by USHMM[3]

See remarks by Prof. Tadeuz Piotrowski on Polish casualties.[4].

Both articles appeared in the Polish Journal Dzieje Najnowsze # 2- 1994

Czesław Łuczak - Szanse i trudności bilansu demograficcznego Polski w latach 1939-1945

Krystyna Kersten- Szacunek strat osobowych w Polsce Wschodniej

--Berndd11222 00:56, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

missing deaths in "branches of service" table?

Why is it that Germany lists 5.5 million deaths in top table, but only ~2 million if you add the 3 branches?

USSR is missing 2 million as well... It seems that the totals may have different sources. Shouldn't this be explictly discussed in the article?

You are quite correct. Germany and USSR have been updated to tie out to the main table and the sources cited.--Berndd11222 12:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Table layout

Hi! I have managed to find out a way how to right-align column in tables, which I think makes them more easy to read. Thanks to experienced wikipedians, I have found out this way: put the code style="text-align: right" in the very beginning of the table (in this case after {{subst:prettytable}}. This will make the ENTIRE table right-aligned. Then we have to put style="text-align: left" in every cell which we want to be left-aligned (in this case only the left one, for countries).

I hope you find the new layout better. Regards, Dennis Nilsson.-Dna-Dennis 05:56, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Personnel serving in the forces of other countries

Why arent there any moroccan civilian/militairy casualties listed. Its a bit absurd to put them under France (i dont know if you did that), cause the soldiers were being send by the King of Morocco! At least 80.000 Moroccan soldiers died during operations in Europe, actually without them, the operation in Italy wouldnt have been a succes at all.

Morocco was a French colony during World War Two and Moroccan military losses are included with the French Army. In the footnote on France there is mention that includes 22,000 Africans among the French dead. Vadim Erlikman in his Poteri narodonaseleniia v XX veke : spravochnik. Moscow 2004. ISBN 5931651071 , lists 1,500 Moroccan military dead in the war of soldiers in the French Army. However you do have a valid point since the Philippines a US colony has separate military losses listed, Americans did not consider them as part of their Armed Forces. In any case a footnote listing each African nation and its losses with the French, UK and Italian forces could be listed based on the data in Vadim Erlikman.--Berndd11222 12:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)<br.> A source for Moroccan civilian casualties is lacking. They should be listed if we can get a source to cite.--Berndd11222 12:40, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

The difference between the Philippines and Morocco was political. The former was termed a "commonwealth", which in this case meant a semi-independent colonial territory of the US. French overseas departments were and are considered to be normal, integral parts of France, whether or not they wished to be. Personally, I think that there is a case for considering all such countries separately, regardless of their formal legal status. Grant65 | Talk 15:28, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

We could do that but it might mislead readers, for example 500,000 of German losses were Volksdeutsch in allied countirs plus 200,000 Soviets. The footnotes mention the origin of these losses. These men were not fighting for Belgium or Czechoslovakia but for Germany. That is why they are listed with Germany. A similar stitution occures with Hungary which conscripted men from annexed territories. The Soviets conscripted mem from the Baltic states and these losses are listed with the USSR. Should we include them with the Baltic states military losses? --Berndd11222 16:46, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

If there is some other way around it, such as changing headings, or adding footnotes to existing headings, then maybe that would be a better option. Unltimately I think we should consider all countries which existed at the time separately, regardless of which side the individuals fought on. As has been noted, we count the Philippines as separate from the US; Indian Army losses are separate from British Army losses. I don't think it would be practical, or good historical practice to consider e.g. Ukrainian losses or Pakistani losses in WW2. But Morocco and Senegal are quite different cases, I think. Grant65 | Talk 00:11, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Three points just occurred to me: (1) the British also made extensive use of African brigades/divisions in the Burma campaign, which should be quite easy to count, and; (2) the US Army in the Philippines, as distinct from the Philippine Army, had Philippine Scouts units, which were recruited and formed locally but had American officers. So it is probable that a majority of the Allied troops in the Philippines were Filipinos. I would guess as well that they were included in US Army losses and these may be more difficult to separate. (3) The Japanese recuited/drafted extensively in Korea and Taiwan. I think, but I'm not sure, that these individuals were mainly used in support roles such as POW camp guards, but I could be wrong. But they may be impossible to separate. Grant65 | Talk 00:25, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Reliable sources that break down UK and French Colonial losses are needed and Italian losses may include Africans. --Berndd11222 01:13, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Maybe you can find a good source describing the battle at monte casino (italy), cause thats the spot where many moroccan soldiers died (at least 75000, several dutch sources say) Mutant01 21:03, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Chinas Losses

Response to edit by 67.65.59.220 John Dower's estimate of Chinas losses of 10 million is posted to the casualties page. Dower is a well known and respected historian, that is why his estimate is listed. The fact of the matter is that prior to the war there was no accurate census of the population. We can only estimate losses based on the postwar population of China. R. J. Rummel has cited many sources estimating China's losses that range up to 37 million, please see the footnote on China. Rummel's China's Bloody Century . Transaction 1991 ISBN 0-88738-417-X goes into detail on the topic of China's human losses in the last century and he cites the sources of his data. If you have a sources for those figures you posted please share them with us. In particular if there are Chinese sources that would back up the losses you cite. Without reliable sources to cite there is no justification to change John Dowers estimate.
--Berndd11222 16:23, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Regarding my changes

Hi! I removed the links The Holocaust and Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki from the "See also" section due to the fact that they were already present in the template. But, alas, my conscience has given me second thoughts; maybe it's only because I am tired, but it suddenly felt horrible to unlink those links, considering their immense terror and impact. Therefore an idea struck me, but I did not feel bold enough to do it, since others are working constantly on this article. To the point: my idea is to perhaps have a section in this article which names and shortly describes the most significant events concerning the loss of life. It does not need to be detailed but maybe worth mentioning. Too tired to think clearly, but the atom bombs, holocaust, bombing of Dresden, Leningrad and Stalingrad are all good contenders. But you guys know more, so I leave it to you...I supply a copy here of the short info that was deleted by my removal of the links:

• Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killed at least 100,000 civilians outright and many more over time
• The Holocaust, Nazi Germany's systematic genocide (ethnic cleansing) of various ethnic, religious, national, and secular groups during World War II

My regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis 09:15, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Forgot to say, man, I am truly impressed by the improvements of this article, and the research put into it! Amazing! Dna-Dennis 09:19, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

New piecharts

I have replaced the two piecharts with new ones based on the new values. Now the piecharts also show the percentage in numbers (better in my opinion). Feel free to comment them here below (maybe you hate the colors, but Excel did not give me many options - colors loosely based on flag colors).

I have also added a brand new piechart - with military & civilian percentages and by alliances.

My regards, Dennis Nilsson. Dna-Dennis ^{talk - contribs} 06:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Chinese figures

To the user who posted the 10 million Chinese figures. The 1931 Yellow River flood killed 4 million and and the 1938 flood killed 1 million people. That's 5 million people dead in just 2 incidents in a span of several months. Yet you want people to believe in almost a decade of war, all Chinese deaths due to bombings, massacres, battles, disease, wounds, POWs, drought, and famine COMBINED were only 10 million? If you're going to post figures, post something logical.--Secret Agent Man 16:43, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree. The Demographic losses in China from 1937-45 may be as high as 35 to 40 million. The footnotes point out that estimates range from 10 to 37 million. China took its first modern census in 1953 and local vital statistics are not available during the period 1937-45. To compound the problem the Chinese Civil War which spanned from 1928-49 took its toll of lives. To estimate losses you need the beginning population in 1937, the actual number of births and natural deaths during the war, the result is compared to the ending 1945 population.
Can you give us a credible source for China's WW2 losses? Estimates by some Communist or Nationalist political figure would not be worth the paper it was printed on. In the case of the USSR there has been demographic analysis published in the 1990's that clears up the disinformation of the Communist era. We need a similar analysis for China. I have posed a request on the Wikipedia China Discussion page for this data.
John Dowers estimate of 10 Million is posted here because he is a recognized authority on WW2 in Asia. If we post our own estimate with no source it will just be blog by some guy on the internet.--Berndd11222 17:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Who didn't post sources? Certainly it wasn't me. All the figures of which I modified all included specific sources. Yet everytime I post a figure, some vandal continues to come here and deliberately delete everything and replaces it. In fact, it's not even about the figures. What I don't appreciate is the fact that the vandal completely disregards any other source besides his/her own. It's simply not right. Chinese & USSR figures 1, Chinese & USSR figures 2, Chinese & USSR figures 3--Secret Agent Man 18:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

But these three sources give us over 20 estimates that range from 12.75 million to 49 million war dead in the USSR without any explanation of how they were derived. How do we choose the correct source?--Berndd11222 20:15, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

The USSR figures are for the USSR in 1939 borders because the Baltic States, Poland and Rumania are picking up the losses in the territories annexed by the USSR in 1940-41. The Russian Academy of Science published a series of papers in 1995 on war losses that clearly points out that Soviet losses will vary depending on the assumptions one makes on the size of the population base. See Rossiiskaia Akademiia nauk. Liudskie poteri SSSR v period vtoroi mirovoi voiny:sbornik statei. Sankt-Peterburg 1995 ISBN 5-86789-023-6. If you increase Soviet losses to 28 million you must reduce the losses in the annexexed territories by 3.4 million otherwise you will be duplicating losses on the table. Also that figure of 28 million includes about 2 million deaths due to Soviet terror which should not be included with WW2 casualties.--Berndd11222 20:02, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Once again, my point is not about the figures themselves. It's the fact that you or someone else continues to delete everybody else's information. You waive off all other sources that are just as, if not more, credible than Dower. Matthew White's website compiles dozens of reliable WWII casualty sources and averages them. This is how this page should be done. That site doesn't single out any one source like this page does. How can Wikipedia survive if everybody just singled out one source? Dower doesn't deserve to be singled out any more than Rummel or Hammond or any other well known reliable source.--Secret Agent Man 06:56, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

The objective of this page is to post the correct number of casualties for each country, not an average of selected sources. In the case of China the number of 10 million estimated by Dower is quite close to Mr. White's average of 10,450,000. I checked the estimate of Mr. White and found that he quoted the wrong figure for Rummel. In China's Bloody Century on page 126 the total number of war deaths is given as 19,905,000 not the figure of 20,44M quoted by Mr. White. --Berndd11222 13:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Finally!

This page is looking much much better

Most importantly im esspecially happy with the fact the we have moved away from the "must equal 50 million deaths" idea.

Its important to tally and sum all the deaths correctly and to their true amount, otherwise one is simply direspecting many millions of lives.

If the statistics say 61 million died, then we should agree 61 million died, and not write 50 million because other sites, or sources guessimate that amount, otherwise we are direspecting 11 million peoples deaths.

SO thankyou, everyone for improving this page, and thankyou everyone for finally recoginising that world war two does NOT have to add up to 50 million deaths, just for the sake of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.217.46.172 (talk • contribs)

Civilan Bombing losses

Am I understanding this article correctly... The Allied strategic bombing that flattened the cities in WWII was supposed to have only have killed a proportional 5% of the civilian population? Where exactly did these figures come from, the offical department of propaganda in the Royal Air Force? Oh wait, I see...when cities are designated as military targets, EVERYONE is defined as military targets! Someone needs to carefully reevaluate these figures and do a better explaination. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.1.102 (talk • contribs)

The official German total of dead from allied bombing was 430,000 which was published in 1955 in Wirtschaft und Statistik. Japanese losses were 394,000 per John Dower. Most civilians were evacuated from the cities in Germany and Japan and escaped Allied raids.

The UK official total from the Blitiz is 60,600. Italian losses due to allied bombing are listed at 65,000 in the link posted in the footnote on Italy. Losses in other countries are real soft estimates . Does that answer the question? --Berndd11222 19:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)