Talk:West Nickel Mines School shooting/Archive 1

Archive 1

Number of children/suicide notes?

The article first lists the shooter as a father of three. Later, it says he left suicide notes to each of his children and numbers four notes. Is there any way to verify which number is correct? Was one of the notes directed toward his wife, perhaps? --BekiB 13:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

someone has just put up a porn link which i have deleted, maybe you should secure this page?

Yeah I'll get an admin to secure this page.Cameron Nedland 13:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

A LOT of school shootings

Holy crap, there's been a LOT of school shootings lately. What's up with that? A Clown in the Dark 18:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

• This is not a discussion about shootings. This talk page is designated for discussing information regarding the article itself. --Nishkid64 19:10, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a clustering illusion. Just like 2006's hurricanes or 2001's shark attacks. --Dhartung | Talk 09:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily, the commentator on Nightline last night considered this one a copycat attack. Rmhermen 13:31, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not a clustering illusion because no one sees a pattern, we just notice it's happening a lot recently. Inforazer 14:31, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

If people are saying that these isolated incidents are occuring for a specific linking reason then it is. The perception that school shootings will be more common from now on because of these events is the result of the illusion. While you sir are perhaps not falling for the illusion, I have heard people say or claim that there is a specific reason for these occurences 68.97.3.177 04:10, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

What is going on? What is happening to our society?Cameron Nedland 13:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

• The label to this page has the word "Talk" and the link/click is discussion leading some of us to actually discuss not composition and editting the article but the underlying event. If we could place a link to an actual discussion page then they could go there ;) Chivista 13:31, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a discussion forum. It says quite clearly at the top of this page what this page is for. If you want to share your grief or discuss the events or your reaction to them, you'll have to go elsewhere and start such a forum, or find one that already exists. It's not the purpose of Wikipedia to provide that service. Canonblack 11:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Death Toll

I saw a report saying the death toll is up to 5 now, but have been unable to find details. Elijya 19:53, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[1] reports four dead and six hospitalized.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 02:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

somme count include the shooter, some other don't. Anyway, it's now 5 girls + 1 shooter

5 girls dead so far. Inforazer 14:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, as does this site: [2]. Mathx314 16:55, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

But that link says five girls including the teenage teaching aide, so the information on the page was incorrect, as it stated five students plus a teaching aide have been killed. I've edited to correct this.80.5.59.27 16:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Adult death

Where is the claim coming from that a teacher's aid died? CNN is reporting the victims age as between 6 and 13 - although that may be just the ages of the hospitalized victims. Rmhermen 19:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

This was specified during a live NBC news coverage, but I've yet to see it in print. I'm having trouble finding text sources that have been updated in the past hour. Elijya 19:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Here, it's specified as "The victims are apparently 2 students, a teacher's aide and the gunman." at this local newssite http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=local&id=4620677 Elijya 20:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The teacher's aide was actually a little older than 13 (probably younger than 20), like a babysitter. Pink moon 1287 22:17, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The latest stories deny a teacers aide was shot. see http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/03/amish.shooting/index.html Edison 21:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

CNN Press Briefing

CNN has been airing and re-airing the press conference from the police. The spokesman said that they have three confirmed dead, two students and they believe a teacher's aide which is just an older child then the 13 year old. They have said that the girls were bound and shot execution style in the back of the head. They are still waiting for an update on if any of the other girls have died. Nevan (utc)

Wolf Rock or Georgetown

It was not Wolf Rock School, but Georgetown Amish School where the incident occurred. [3]

-68.32.34.152 21:06, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

That's a San Diego News Source. Philadelphia local source CBS3[4] agrees that it's Georgetown, but NBC10 [5] and 6ABC[6] say Wolf Rock. Elijya 21:18, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Is it a "public" school or run privately by the Amish themselves?

It might be useful to add a link to Wisconsin v. Yoder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_v._Yoder), since the Amish do not send their children to formal school after the eighth grade (approximately age 13), due the outcome of the court case based on their religious doctrine. Le 01:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

other recent shootings

What's the point of this section? seems like someone is just trying to take up space. --Zonerocks 03:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

This is the fourth or fifth school shooting in about a month. That's worth mentioning. Wikibout-Talk to me! 04:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Copycats, perhaps. Edison 04:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The fact that this is the Xth school shooting in period Y is notable and easily verified. But theories of connections or similar motives would be original research (and, thus, not something we should be publishing on WP), so I've pared the details of those shootings down. There's no direct relevance of the other shooters names, etc. so readers interested in them can hit the links to those articles. --Ds13 04:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually we aren't the only ones to notice there has been a lot of school shootings lately, the government is holding a meeting of some sort to address the issue. http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/10/02/bush.school.violence.ap/index.html Inforazer 17:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

School name

Does this school have a name?? --Anthony5429 18:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is called the Wolf Rock School. If someone can change the name of this from "Amish School Shooting" to "2006 Wolf Rock School Shooting", that would be great. --Hossmann 18:51, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I recommend Wolf Rock School shooting, as there has been only one.

I agree. Iceberg007 06:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the 2nd footnote, as well as an earlier discussion on this talk page, they'll tell you that "Various sources have reported the school's name as Wolf Rock, Nickel Mines Amish School, Georgetown Amish School or the West Nickel Mines Amish School". So no, changing the article to wolf Rock School shooting would be inappropriate until there is a more clear verifiable concensus as to the school's name. Elijya 13:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

To add to the confusion, on the USGS map, the nearset school in Paradise Twn, near Wolf Rock Creek and the community of Nickel Mines is called Bellemont School. Rmhermen 13:41, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Wolf Rock School was about the most non-notable school before the shooting, and no one would look for info about this event under that name. If the school were famous in its own right, then that would be the logical name. It has hardly been used in the news stories, and would be an impediment to anyone finding the story in the future.Edison 15:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The Pennsylvania German Wikipedia article on the incident is called West Nickel Mines Schuhlhaus Incident and the article on the school itself is called West Nickel Mines Schuhlhaus, but there are no sources cited to confirm it. Given that it's the only school in a small community, it may not even have an official name; locals probably just call it "the school". Given the nature of the Amish community, it's unlikely the school is officially recognized by any school district anyway. Angr 06:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Why would any Amish be looking at Wikipedia? Seems unlikely.Edison 06:10, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I never said they were. Angr 06:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I see there is now a stub called Wolf Rock School. It disagrees with West Nickel Mines Schuhlhaus both on the name of the school and the name of the street the school is on. Unfortunately, neither article cites its sources. Angr 08:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The website for the local Lancaster, PA newspapers identifies the school as "West Nickel Mines School" http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/26389 13:18, 4 October 2006 (EST)

West Nickel Mines Schoolhouse; at times West Nickel Mines Parochial School:

local newspaper map with name

PA Dutch language Wikipedia article: West Nickel Mines Schuhlhaus Incident

local newspaper article

The school building, which is much newer than the latest topographic maps, is soon to be torn down; permit to do so was issued already, with usual fees waived.

"See Also"

I fail to see how the École Polytechnique massacre has anything to do with this incident any more or less than any other school shooting; why should it be included in this article?

It is similar in that a gunman entered the building, and spared the male students, while targeting the females present. However, having allowed some adult women to leave the school, age seems to be a factor here, along with the victims' gender. --Alexis 06:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the article itself has already drawn similarity to the Platte Canyon High School shooting, why not to the École Polytechnique massacre? If anything, the Platte Canyon shooting seems to be sexual in nature, while the other 2 are more about killing, as it seems at this point. It was clear that the intend in Ecole polytechnique incident was targetting female STUDENTS. It is the most relevant and similar shooting incident to this shooting, imo. --Kvasir 07:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I concur, as these are the only two school shootings we know of motivated by gender resentment. (I'm not ruling out workplace shootings, but I don't know of any offhand.) --Dhartung | Talk 09:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Those are a lot of presumptions. I disagree with categorisation until further understanding of the events has come to light. Jachin 10:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Wikipedia editors should most definitely not be linking any of these shootings without verifiable, cited evidence that such links exist. To do otherwise is a clear violation of the prohibition against original research. Adding these to a general "School shooting" category is okay. Implying there are deeper links between them without outside evidence is not. --ElKevbo 10:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

How many more similarities does one need between the Polytechnique and Wolf Creek? We're not at all saying it was a copycat, we are saying they deserve mention for the similarities. Both happened in schools. Both told the men to leave to separate the women from the men to aim solely at the women, both involve revenge or redemption, and all this has been described by the police already in both incidents. Let the link stay. Just because it happened in Canada does not mean it does not deserve attention. Stettlerj 15:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

We shouldn't be saying anything of the sort. That's original research. Find a verifiable source that supports your assertion and I'm happy to let it stand. --ElKevbo 15:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

A link is not original research. Stettlerj 15:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Implying or outright stating there is a connection between two events without supporting evidence is original research. --ElKevbo 15:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate link

Apparently JonStamos2 is more interested in Amish porn than school shootings... Super Jedi Droid 09:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

He's using multis as well. Currently using the name JonStamos4. CardinalFangZERO 09:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

He just doesn't give up. I've reported him to Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism CardinalFangZERO 09:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Further Developments

Anyone going to stick with this story and give us updates as they come forwards? It'd be interesting to know the reason this guy went postal. Poor bastards, of all the people in the world, these guys are the least offensive and most humble from what I've seen of them, they wouldn't hurt a fly, so to see that happen to a pacifistic society just sucks. Jachin 10:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikinews is the appropriate place to look for the most recent updates. --ElKevbo 10:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

2006 Amish school shooting → Amish school shooting – Like with the Mark Foley scandal, which was moved from "2006 Mark Foley scandal", there is no need to disambiguate with 2006 here. There has been no other Amish school shooting, and thus 2006 in the title implies "the one" that happened in 2006. See Dawson College shooting, which also does not include 2006 Bssc81 13:14, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Moved per consensus below. Angr 12:33, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support, as per above. Note this article doesn't even call it the "2006 Amish school shooting in the first sentence". Bssc81 13:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
• support. Rmhermen 13:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support It seems like tempting fate to assume there will never be another shooting in an Amish school, and I've not seen any authoritative source state that there has never in all of history been a previous Amish school shooting, but if the need for disambiguation appears, I suppose we can rename this; makes it consistent with Columbine High School massacre and Heath High School shooting.
  • If and when another one happens, then 2006 can be added. Kind of like if and when Zinedine Zidane headbutts someone else, we can rename the original to 2006 Zidane headbutt :) Bssc81 16:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
• Neutral, what about Paradise Township Amish school shooting? Or did this school have a name? -- Zanimum 15:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Consistent with other very analogous articles (that were well-discussed on this front). --Ds13 15:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support Until there's another Amish school shooting, there's no reason why the 2006 should remain in the headline. Inforazer 17:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support, since my earlier move was purely a procedural move. --Coredesat (talk) 18:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support --Casper2k3 19:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support יונה בן צוי 07:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
• Support Pongo489 11:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

• I agree that the current title is imperfect, but I think that Wolf Rock School shooting (as suggested above) would be a better one. An opposing point raised above is that "various sources" are reporting the wrong school name, but I don't think that should matter. We should attempt to be accurate and descriptive in our title, and "Amish school" is pretty vague. -- Plutortalkcontribs 15:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
• I completely agree with Plutor. In addition, moving the article to Wolf Rock School shooting would be consistent with other similar incidents. --ElKevbo 15:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

But Plutor, as also as discussed above, it's not clear whether the school's name is in fact Wolf Rock School, as different sources are giving different names. Elijya 15:38, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Whatever the name of the school is what we should name the article ("X school Shooting"). I defer to others more knowledgable as to the determination of the school's "official" name. --ElKevbo 17:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

It would be a mistake to move it to a title no one would search for. The media call it the Amish school shooting. No one seems to be sure what the name of the school is. The next time there is a school shooting somewhere, anyone wanting to refer back to this would likely look fot "Amish school shooting." Stick with the "Keep it simple" principle.Edison 17:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that's a poor excuse to misname the article. We should definitely set up a redirect at "Amish School Shooting" but we should stick with the precedent set by the other articles. I really don't think this is too big of a deal but I do think that consistency is a key principle to maintain as Wikipedia continues to grow. But I'm happy to go along with the consensus on this issue. --ElKevbo 17:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

As soon as we have consensus on the school name, I agree the article should be named "X School shooting". Anything less will be inconsistent with the standard practice here, due to lazyness. Sensationally and emotionally, it's more memorable as "that Amish school incident", but we don't need to push the "Amish? oh my!" button like commercial media sellers -- we can introduce the appropriate amount of fact into the title and have a more professional/respectful/informed article. --Ds13 17:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this call for accuracy as it'll help avoid "sensational" language that doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. --יונה בן צוי 07:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

See my comments above under #School name. Angr 06:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

In the usian media the incident is referred to as the amish school shooting. For matters of research in the future, etc, its best to stick with the name the media dons it. Perhaps for usians 'amish' is telling a lot (like that it happened in pennsylvania). The link with other school incidents is justified, in my opinion these people are fascinated with the kind of story. (i am rather fascinated , but i might be that, had it happened at another significant place), in that regard the link should be provided professionally. Instead of school-shootouts, perhaps, psychological resemblances between similar perpetuators, since i got really curious if it is the collection (hype) of school assault info, that gives these people the idea to go to school. Is there an autoption report of the guy? perhaps he had braintumor? He behaved like that (numerous notes and failure to distract himself from obsessing thoughts apparently not much influencing him before(<none yet described him as special, weird , setback or a bit strange eg..) 80.57.242.54 11:11, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I think we could rename it with the proper school name, but leave a redirect under "amish school shooting" as a compromise, to balance between accuracy and convenience. Super Jedi Droid 18:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

What am I saying "we"? I'm not an admin... Super Jedi Droid 18:14, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Contact police

I don't really know much about the Amish but don't they tend to avoid item which are considered too high tech/modern such as phones? Does anyone know how the police were contacted (I'm not saying they wouldn't have used a phone to contact the police just wondering where the phone was that they used to contact the police if they did use one)? Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to insult the Amish or make fun of their beliefs or whatever just wondering since it seems like something that could have been a problem (on the other hand, I believe they may tend to have one or two public phones available and it would make sense for one of these to be located in or near the school). Nil Einne 04:54, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I have heard that it is common practice in Amish communities to have someone run (or more likely, gallop on horseback) to the nearest non-Amish community and ask someone there to notify the police in case of an emergency they can't handle on their own. I think it's unlikely there would be any public phones available in the community itself. Angr 06:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, read the last paragraph of Amish#Modern technology. Angr 06:35, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/26399 says: "When the older Zook [the schoolteacher's mother] saw the gun, she looked at her daughter [the schoolteacher], and they darted outside the school to a nearby farm, where they called the police." But it doesn't specify whether the nearby farm was Amish or non-Amish. Still, Amish#Modern technology says there are sometimes phone booths in a community for emergency use. Angr 10:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Many modern Amish have phones for emergency purposes. The phones are typically located in a barn so that they can't be used easily. Reidhoch 11:28, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as having phones: the Amish near my home are permitted one phone (can carry it around, between house and garage), but they're quite modern as far as Amish go. Also, near my grandparents' in Lawrence County, Pennsylvania, where the Amish are much more primitive than at my home, there are pay phones just sitting out along roads in the middle of nowhere :-) By the way, in my experience, Amish are usually uncomfortable with horseback riding: it's too military-like. Nyttend 21:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I have a copy of America 24/7 and it shows a picture of an Amish town with a small phone booth, like the one on this picture, and is only used for emergency situations. Iolakana•T 21:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Teacher

What about the teacher? Did she escape while being held hostage or was she released initially? If it's the former, it would be worth clarifying that the teacher was held hostage along with her female students. --Kvasir 18:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The Lancaster Online article linked above makes it sound like she and her mother ran out when they saw him approaching with the gun, so they were never actually held hostage in the first place. Angr 18:52, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

The article here says she escaped over 40 mins after the gunman entered. Seems to me that she was one of the hostages. Clarification? --Kvasir 00:26, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

victim name

i've seen it spelled Lena and Lina, which is correct? --66.65.56.199 05:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Her name is spelled Lena according to the Directory of the Lancaster County Amish, Pequea Publishers: Gordonville, PA, 2002. Her obituary also lists the spelling as Lena. Naomi Rose Ebersol's name was originally misspelled as well, with an e added to the end in error.

Shot in shoulder?

The article says one victim was shot in the back and shoulder, but that does not appear to be in the news cited. I placed a FACT tag. Edison 06:12, 4 October 2006 (UTC) Added a ref today indicating Barbie Fusher was wounded thus. Removed fact tag.Edison 22:49, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Paradise

Yesterday, I reported the shooting took place in the village of Paradise near Nickel Mines based on the BBC reports I read. Today that information is gone. Can anyone figure out what happened to it? There's been a lot of edits in the mean time... - Mgm|^(talk) 09:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it was NEAR Paradise, which is a few miles away, along US 30. I guess let Lancastrians who KNOW the area do the editing, esp with a barrage of confusing media reports. The Amish certainly don't put their schools in villages. Hillsboro 21:35, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Police told to move

Shortly after this event happenend, I heard reports on Australian ABC News Radio (the national public broadcaster), probably repeating US NPR. One thing reported on the radio, but not here was a series of events as follows:

• Police receive a call from a 911 operator advising that the gunman has called saying he has hostages and wants the police to move away in 10 seconds or he starts shooting
• Police hold their ground as a police negotiator calls the gunman on the number he called 911 from
• Gunman starts shooting hostages, then himself

The implication on the radio was that the gunman shot the girls in response to the police trying to negotiate rather than immediately backing off.

203.22.236.14 11:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

CNN mentioned this today and pretty much confirmed what you suspected. Without drawing any opinions, it's clear the police refusing his commands took place immediately before the shooting began. I added this and a reference. Liu Bei 23:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Hospitals discrepancy

Early reports from CNN and other news outlets indicated that Lancaster General Hospital received the first victims transported from the scene [7] [8] [9] [10] [11]; LGH and Christiana are the closest hospitals to the scene, with Hershey MC over twice as far and Children's in Philly farther than that. The article never mentions LGH, but the source cited for the paragraph naming the hospitals involved clearly states that at least one of the victims was pronounced DOA at LGH. If I have time, I'd like to fix this, but if someone else wants to investigate and correct it... Canonblack 11:41, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Ages of Fatalities

At the top of the page it says he "killed five girls (aged 6–13)" yet down lower in the page where it lists the fatalities the youngest is 7 and the oldest is eight. It seems that the ages of the victims (including girls that survived) have been mixed up with the ages of the girls who died. The opening line should be changed to "aged 7-13". - Pongo489 11:47, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

• The girls in the classroom were aged 6-13 according to the reports. I have no idea which ones actually died, so I think the sentence should be changed so it doesn't imply the age belongs to the dead girls. Instead their ages should be mentioned when the article states 10 girls were taken hostage. - 131.211.210.13 09:01, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Math Problems

One section on the status of the girls specifies:

Police broke in through the windows when shots were heard.[2] The gunman killed himself and five girls. Three died at the scene and two more died early the next morning, with five more girls left in critical condition. Three girls were admitted to Penn State Milton S. Hershey Medical Center, four to Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and one to Christiana Hospital in Delaware, state police said.[9] At least five girls remain hospitalized, three in critical condition and two downgraded to serious condition as of Tuesday, October 3, 2006.[10] [5]

There's a couple math problems here regarding the fates of the girls. There were 10 total, and 3 died at the scene. But there were 8 girls admitted to hospitals. A later section on the names of the girls shows only 2 dying at the scene, which matches the 8... maybe the 3rd died shortly after arrival at the hospital? Then our second problem is that 2 more died in hospital the next morning, giving 5 dead total, with "at least" 5 girls still in hospital, according to the article. Do we really need the "at least"? There were 10 girls there, and 5 died, so I don't think there's probably MORE than 5 still in hospital, unless you're talking about the morgue. I'm not sure of the exact facts, so I can't correct this myself, but could somebody else please? Thanks. --Maelwys 13:38, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

i think the third is the one who died in the arms of a policeman, at least that was often said in the news

amish deligation to gunmans family

Local news in vancouver bc reported that athe amish had sent a delegation to comfort the gunman's family, and to tell them that they do not hold them responsible for his actions. If the is accurate I think it should be included...does anyone know anything about this 64.59.144.21 18:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)jlinman

"Determined" that he did not molest family members?

The article now says it has been "determined" that he did not molest two preschool family members 20 years ago that he said he did molest. The article would better state "family members denied he had molested them" or "the alleged victims have told authorities they do not remember being molested." False memories of being molested have been reported in other cases, but I have not read of an adult having false memories of doing the molesting. It is often the case that such behavior is not remembered or is repressed by small children, or older family members may want to hush things up. His reported statement is one side and the reported recollections of the alleged victims and their family are on the other side. A balanced view should be in the article. Has a law enforcement spokesman said definitively it did not happen 20 years ago, and how would they know? Edison 16:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

The primary issue with the statement is that, as of this particular moment, it is unsourced. I think your objections are noteworthy to an extent but the exact phrasing should depend heavily on the source(s) from which the statement or fact is being taken. Please be careful not to stray from NPOV to OR. --ElKevbo 17:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

My point is, it is hard to prove something did not happen 20 years ago, when the alleged perpetrator said it did, and the alleged victims are very young. The proof would have to be along the lines that persons who were adults at the time are sure he was never alone with them. And the "determination" would have to be pronounced by a responsible authority, not just denial by the family.Edison 17:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I understand your concern and in other contexts I would share it. But please remember that in Wikpedia verifiability is the standard, not truth. There is certainly a judgement call to be made in what information should be included but if a verifiable source reports it then we should likely include it. --ElKevbo 18:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

One ref cited now says mental health experts say 1)maybe it didn't happen, 2)maybe they were too young to remember, 3)maybe he did inappropriate touching which did not mean much to them at the time. So it remains unproven rather than disproved.Edison 22:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I actually recall that I had met a man, who's wife was quite unstable, and had pressed for so long that he had molested his children, that he started to believe that maybe he has, and was, molesting them, and that he was the one repressing the memories, and that's why he didn't remember them. Memories are tricky things, however, if a later in life adult reports that they were not molested, and they don't exhibit any aversions or such to sex, and intimacy, then in all likelihood they were not. While I understand that there is a strong interest in believing Roberts at his word, and that the children at the time have simply repressed the memory, that is not the most likely situation. It's far more likely, that the children at the time are reporting accurately, as they have no reason to deny it, or anything, and if they showed signs of repressed sexual abuse would certainly have received attention. People can convince themselves of many things, and the most clear thing is that Roberts honestly believed he had commited the acts, and fantasized about commiting the acts again. Whether they were wished so strong that he wanted them to be true, or perhaps he actually reviled the idea himself such that he could never carry through with the act. He brought sexual lubrication, and only kept the small girls, and admitted to his wife that he was fantasizing about it, however, no signs of sexual assault were found on any of the girls... he clearly planned to do something, but could not actually do it, for some unknown reason. (All speculation, no good for article.) --Puellanivis 00:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Unsure how good as a source Yahoo is

I just saw one of the news reports on Yahoo, speaking about four of the girls' funerals - it also mentions that another girl 'has been taken off life supposrt and allowed home to die'. Is Yahoo rated as a good source here? 'Cause if so, doesn't that make it six?

Link: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/05102006/140/amish-shootings-funerals-victims.html --Lady BlahDeBlah 19:43, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I've read several sources that say this was Rosanna King but haven't been able to find anything more recent (which seems odd, given that this was barely a month ago). Anyone know her status? Did she die after being taken off life support? Or are the rumors that she miraculously rallied and returned to hospital true?--Nelliebellie 04:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

language

"Police report that the gunman was a jackass named Charles Carl Roberts IV" is statement from the opening paragraph. The word "jackass" should be removed.

It was quite obviously vandalism. Iolakana•T 21:15, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Phelps protest?

Is it worth inclding that ultra-right wing zealot Fred phelps had planned to protest at the girls' funeral, but ultimately decided or was 'persuaded' not to? ThuranX 03:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

It does a disservice to all zealots to call phelps one.Edison 22:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it is. Mike Gallagher paid them to appear on his radio show for an hour and rant on their "God Hates Fags" and "God Hates Sweden" crap in exchange for not going to the protest.- JustPhil 23:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Info on this girl should be added

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2531138&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312 74.137.230.39 19:07, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Done. Truly remarkable: 13 year old and then 11 year old asked to be shot before others to spare the others.Edison 22:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Added tell me what you think. Needs to be edited better for grammar and syntax i think... Chantalshivan 07:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

"believed to be"?

Just a passing comment... why do we say "believed to be" in reference to the girls' names and identifications when it's quite clear from various news articles that, for instance, the six-year-old taken off life support is Rosanna King? (And the other names likewise, although I've read many articles that put Barbie Fisher as 11, not 10.)--Injoy 23:50, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Question I haven't been able to find elsewhere- is she alive, or no? --Nelliebellie 04:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

"Amish school massacre"

The standard Wikipedia term for "school shooting" is "school massacre." I suggest that this article be renamed "Amish school massacre." Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 05:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The "standard" depends on how many people are killed... see Platte Canyon High School shooting and Dawson College shooting. If you ask me, five people killed, sad though it is, does not equal a massacre. -- PageantUpdater • talk | contribs | esperanza 06:08, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I know there are example(s) of the term "massacre" being used in WP, but this is neither a Guideline nor Policy at WP as far as I know. Can you cite otherwise? Anyways, "massacre" is a POV term, since everyone will have a different threshold for how many need to be killed and in what manner before it is applied. Are two deaths a massacre? One death? 10? 100? We'll all have different answers for this and nobody is "right" or "wrong". POV. Thus, it should not be used. "Killings" and "shootings" are factual. "Massacre" if applied to millions of deaths may be objective, but at these levels, it's POV. --Ds13 07:20, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Why is this article called "Amish school shooting" anyway? Shouldn't it be called "West Nickel Mines School shooting (or massacre)"? -75.136.202.14 07:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Still current?

It's been 11 days since the shooting. Are things connected with this story still changing rapidly, or can we take down the {{current}} template now? —Angr 14:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Unless more of the injured die then that would only require some minor edits. Hardly a "changing by the minute story".GiollaUidir 14:49, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I took it down in bold agreement. Elliskev 14:50, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Number of Shootings in US?

This was the twenty-fourth school shooting in the United States, according to the National School Safety and Security Services.

24th this year, or 24th in the entire history of the US? Needs some clarification, but I don't know which is the actual right answer here. Morhange 05:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I checked the article it was cited from. It said "there have been a total of 24 school shootings in the 2006-07 school year". I am not quite sure when the school year began but the article should definitely say that it is from this year. - Pongo489 11:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Merger

I have proposed that West Nickel Mines School be merged into this article. The school has been demolished, and the information presented is about all that can be and will be part of the article. It is unlikely that the article about the school will draw editors, especially since the Amish are not likely to be Wikipedia editors. -- User101010 06:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

This event is the only reason that the school has become known, and there isn't a whole lot more to say about the school aside from this event, so I say merge--Tabun1015 04:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree that merging is correct. GRBerry 19:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

MERGE per the above reasoning. --Daysleeper47 16:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

MERGE this article because as said before there is not a lot to say about the school, and they already opened a new school (i live in the area so i know and because the lancaster new era paper said so.) micaheloellig 17:40, 2 April 2007 (EST)

New Source

Associated Press article, published at Boston.com (website affiliated with the Boston Globe. [12] -- 19:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Update required on victims' conditions

Hate to point this out - such a tragic story - but the italicised details, probably correct at the time, are redundant and need to be updated by someone familiar with the events.

Three girls were admitted to Penn State Milton S. Hershey Medical Center, four to Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and one to Christiana Hospital in Newark, Delaware, state police said.[12] At least five girls remain hospitalized, three in critical condition and two upgraded to serious condition as of Tuesday, October 3, 2006.[13][5] Johnno2 14:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Inappropriate language/style

It's actually appalling: "Although this evil massacre of innocent children was obviously the warped actions of a deranged and psychotic individual", "The heroic troopers, who had been poised for action in close proximity to the outside walls of the building, approached to assist as bullets were flying in all directions, including theirs.", "Troopers selflessly assisted the surviving children, administering first aid as they carried them outside. These heroic troopers continued to tend to the girls, helping the Emergency Medical Technicians provide first aid on the school playground, which had become a hastily arranged triage site." are just three examples I found at a glance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gcbirzan (talk • contribs) 10:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, I noticed this when I read the article the other day. I remember the word "heroic" coming up multiple times; that and other superfluous adjectives should be stricken from this entry. Definitely un-encyclopedia-like. no_cookies4you 22:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

It's definitely not written in a neutral or professional style. I think large portions need to be re-written to exclude the adjectives and bias. It's far too opinionated. I'll do what I can for now. 74.101.171.193 02:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Not just lack of neutral point, but too much redundant information and disorganized subsections. Should it be nominated for cleanup?

LeatherEngine (talk) 22:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)