Talk:Watford Grammar School for Boys

Hi Carinya, thanks for contributing to wikipedia. Please add sources to show the verifiability of your information. Guidelines are here WP:V. Articles without verification sometimes get tagged for deletion by (sometimes overzealous) recent change patrollers. Notability or importance is another important thing to explain although minimal importance is usually enough. Notable alumni, mention in works of literature, that sort of thing. Above all, have fun. Thatcher131 15:56, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot 16:56, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Alumni list

Moneyhill, I see you've re-ordered the list (which was in chronological order). Is there any particular pattern to your order?

You've also retitled the section Notable recent alumni from the more common Notable alumni. Is there a reason for that? Kanguole (talk) 19:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Old Fullerians

Is not the inclusion of the full committee of the old boys' cricket club a little bit too tangential to the main subject? I would suggest that the whole section on Old Fullerians be removed and covered in a short para along the lines of: "Old boys of the school are known as Old Fullerians. The Old Fullerians run a number of active sports clubs." In fact, you could probably do without that second sentence.

Just a suggestion! I see there are a couple of keen editors for this piece... HenryPhillips (talk) 12:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I've cut the table and the cricket club subsection. Not sure about further cuts. Kanguole (talk) 14:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Alumni list

MoneyHill is keen to remove David Sullivan from the list, saying "Sullivan notorious, not notable; brought UK journalism to an all-time low and shame to the school". But notoriety and notability are not mutually exclusive; he certainly is notable. This page ought to report all the relevant information, even if some of it is embarrassing to the school. Kanguole (talk) 14:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I would suggest that David Sullivan is pretty notable. I don't see how someone's future behaviour or business dealings reflect positively or badly on the school. For example I notice that Nick Leeson is top of Parmiter's School list of notable Alumni, yet he brought down a bank! As one of the richest men in England it's difficult to ignore him. Perhaps as a compromise he can be described as a "Newspaper Proprietor" on this page, and people can read his page to find out the rest, if they don't already know.WW9066 (talk) 23:40, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, I notice that Laurent Barnard, guitarist in the band Gallows has been taken off the Alumni list. The guidelines from the Wikiproject Schools states: Notable alumni — Provide a bulleted list of notable alumni with a short description to explain why they are famous. Alumni without their own Wiki articles should always have third-party references. i.e. Alumni need not necessarily have their own wikipedia page. Gallow's music may not be to everyone's taste, but the band, including Laurent himself have appeared on the front cover of NME and Kerrang! magazines. That makes him fairly notable in my opinion.WW9066 (talk) 23:40, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, I may have trimmed a bit much, but there were no third-party references for him either. Kanguole (talk) 00:57, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. He clearly passes notability criteria. No serious debate on the page for Sullivan about notability. Not a nice man but the last time I looked there was a page for Hitler too... HenryPhillips (talk) 21:55, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Re: Sullivan, I didn't realise he'd given money to the school as well - pretty difficult to disown him if the school is happy to take his money.WW9066 (talk) 11:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I have removed Brian Pettifer. Although I have seen some evidence that he worked for Bovis at some point, I can't find evidence of his having been chairman. He seems to have worked mostly in a family business. Also no verification that he was at WBGS. I don't doubt that he was, but there are no sources for either point at present. Thought best to remove for now. No WP article for him. HenryPhillips (talk) 21:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

For a school that's over 300 years old these are all recent alumni. No one from before the 1930s. Also for a school like WBGS that has never fostered its alumnus contacts - the vast majority of its alumni are not members of the old boys' association - the list is bound to be extremely partial and far too dependent on information provided by that association. The paragraph in fact serves no useful purpose, and is probably best deleted. David Sullivan publishes a very tatty so-called newspaper which simply lists call girls and, like many rich men, he is a director of a football club - can someone please explain why that makes him notable? On another entry, why bother to mention that George Walker was head boy? (So was the next entry, Crighton.) It's not important, nor is the fact that he returned to the school to teach chemistry. The school has a strong - post-WWII - music tradition, so the list now has the three horns who played next to one another at the same time in the National Youth Orchestra (which only had five horn desks) and went on to make national musical careers. John Grillo's film CV can be seen on IMDB. In fact, though, the research is simply not there to make this paragraph a useful and representative list, and it should be deleted. (Moneyhill (talk) 21:50, 3 May 2008 (UTC))

The secondary school was founded in 1884, and Gerald Moore would be 1910s. It's rather less likely that the poor children who received an elementary education in the Free School would have risen to national prominence, if indeed it can be considered the same school at all. It's true that the list is inevitably partial, but it does seem likely that if an old boy becomes famous, someone will remember that he was at the school. Many people do find lists of former pupils useful; that's why they're in histories of the school, and are a standard feature of Wikipedia schools articles. The article on David Sullivan is a strong case for notability. As for "head boy", I believe that you added that; I'm happy to remove it. Kanguole (talk) 01:38, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

It's good to know now that you all regard someone who has made millions out of pornography as a notable alumnus of his school. Watford Grammar School's values were different when I was a pupil. Most of my WBGS contemporaries would not regard the acquisition of great wealth from pornography as an achievement of which the school should be proud or as making the person a "notable alumnus" of it. But your values are clearly different; I withdraw, and leave the site to you. I don't think it was I who added "head boy" in the case of George Walker. (Moneyhill (talk) 13:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC))

The issue of notability does not surely refer to the school, merely to this wikipedia page. He is notable and he is an alumni of the school. The issue of whether the school is proud of his achievements, for the purposes of this page is irrelevant. In fact we could note make a sub-note that the school have distanced themselves from him, if that were the case. But we can't, because the school are quite happy to take his money - obviously the school is proud of him. May I suggest again, that he is described here as a "newspaper proprietor" as a compromise that may keep everyone happy?WW9066 (talk) 11:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how hiding information would make anyone happier: it still leaves Sullivan associated with the school. Kanguole (talk) 00:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The alumni and teacher lists in this article have now appeared on the School's website, under Old Boys/Famous Old Boys (with a slight edit to Sullivan's entry). Kanguole (talk) 12:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

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