Talk:Vivianne Miedema/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Kosack (talk · contribs) 13:55, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Picking this up, review coming shortly. Kosack (talk) 13:55, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Infobox

• Refs for her youth teams? I can't see them mentioned anywhere in the text.

Added sentences and refs to Early life section. Hmlarson (talk) 17:55, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Lead

• FA WSL should use the full name on first usage with the abbreviation in brackets immediately afterwards.

Added. Thanks SuperJew. Hmlarson (talk) 17:56, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• No need for ref 2 in the lead really, the information is more than covered in the main body.

Removed with help from SuperJew. Hmlarson (talk) 17:56, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Can drop the second use of FA WSL or the full name in the second paragraph then, depending on which you plan on using.

Removed. Thanks SuperJew. Hmlarson (talk) 17:56, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Early life

• boys teams > boys' teams.

Updated. Hmlarson (talk) 17:58, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• "Vivianne would often travel 120 miles", do we need to switch back to her Christian name here?

Sure. Hmlarson (talk) 17:58, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• "as a young 14-year-old teenager", both young and teenager are unnecessary here.

Updated. Hmlarson (talk) 17:58, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Club career

• No need to link SC Heerenveen again here, per WP:OVERLINK.

I left the link after editing early life section. Hmlarson (talk) 21:18, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• "reportedly becoming the youngest ever player in the Eredivisie Vrouwen", why reportedly? The ref itself has expired so I'm unable to look further.

Edited. Hmlarson (talk) 16:52, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

• Frauen-Bundesliga > the Frauen-Bundesliga.

Done. --SuperJew (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• "Vivianne scored her first goal in England", no need to use her Christian name again.

Done. --SuperJew (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• The England link in that sentence is a bit WP:EASTEREGGY.

Fixed. --SuperJew (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Link hat-trick.

Done. --SuperJew (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Stray comma after Liverpool, 5-0.

Removed. --SuperJew (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Single sentence paragraphs should generally be avoided, there are two here beginning "On xx October 2019". These could be worked together into one given their close timeframe.

Merged. --SuperJew (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• "she scored six goals and set up four others", goals could probably be dropped here. It's pretty clear what scored is referring to.

Done. --SuperJew (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• "became the first player to score 50 WSL goals, overtaking Nikita Parris", it isn't really clear in what sense she overtook Parris here. I had to check the ref to find out why. This could be made clearer as to that it was the FA WSL's top goalscorer.

Fixed. --SuperJew (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Overall, this section is a little light on info I feel. For one of the leading female players in the world with nine years senior experience, roughly around four paragraphs seems a little small. I'm not overly aware of the sort of sources available for female players, so this may be as good as it gets, but it's worth looking at.

Please be more specific. What's missing? Hmlarson (talk) 16:52, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Well for example Miedema spent three years with Bayern, playing over 70 games, scoring more than 50 times and winning two league titles. Yet this time is condensed into three short sentences. As a comparison, Ryan Williams (women's soccer), a GA on a seemingly minor level player, has 10kb of prose for a player who has never appeared internationally. Whereas this comes in at just over 7kb. It's not a competition in terms of size obviously, but the club career section article is lacking in substance right now I feel. Kosack (talk) 08:18, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Ok, so expand the Bayern section.Thanks Kosack. Can you do me a favor and ping me when you reply? Appreciate it. Hmlarson (talk) 16:45, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

@Hmlarson: The Bayern section was an example, the Heerenveen and Arsenal sections have the same issue really. Given the amount of media attention she has, the style of play section could probably be expanded quite easily too. Kosack (talk) 17:05, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

@Kosack: Style of play and club career sections have been updated. Hmlarson (talk) 00:32, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

@Hmlarson: The Hereenveen section still needs expanding. From a brief web search I've noted:

• Her debut came again FC Utrecht on 2 September 2011 (Soccerway)
• Probably worth noting that she scored 10 times in 17 games during her debut season, that's quite an achievement. (UEFA)
• This put her as the joint second highest scorer in the league despite being 15/16. (These Football Times)
• She was also the top goalscorer in the 2012–13 BeNe League season. (UEFA above)
• Her third season tally was 15 clear of her nearest rival (These Football Times above)

It is also worth taking a look at her Dutch Wiki page which has more information on her debuts and first goals for Hereenveen and Bayern and her injury disrupted first season with Bayern. There is other info there but it appears unsourced, so is likely not much use unless you can find sources for it. Kosack (talk) 11:13, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Expanded Kosack - thanks for the specific recommendations and refs and thanks, Bring back Daz Sampson, for your assistance.Hmlarson (talk) 16:06, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

You're welcome Hmlarson. I've just seen this but I must have been thinking along the same lines as Kosack! Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 16:30, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

International career

• The paragraph on the victory over Scotland contains quite a few unencyclopaedic journalistic terms. Things like "stung the palms", "casually shrugged off burly centre-half" and "to leave the Dutch firmly in the driving seat" aren't really of the necessary tone.

@Kosack: - Slightly modified. If you disagree, please suggest specific re-wording. Hmlarson (talk) 00:39, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

• The 2019 World Cup squad selection could be worked into the lower paragraph. No need for it to be on its own really.

Removed. Thanks Edwininlondon. Hmlarson (talk) 00:39, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

You're welcome. I actually was unaware this article was in GAN. I'm pleased to see it improving. I shall stay out of the review, but once it is successful, perhaps would you be up for taking it all the way to FA? Edwininlondon (talk) 09:38, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

It's definitely possible – there's plenty of material to work with. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 16:32, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

• Italy are linked for the second time in the final paragraph.

Unlinked. --SuperJew (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Last sentence is unsourced.

Added reference. --SuperJew (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

A few more notable inclusions for the international section:

• She scored a hat-trick in only her second international appearance against Portugal (Arsenal F.C.)

Included. Hmlarson (talk) 17:17, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

• Her 18 qualifying goals for the 2015 World Cup equalled the record for the competition (UEFA source above) Kosack (talk) 11:13, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Expanded. Hmlarson (talk) 17:17, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Style of play

• Feyenoord are repeat linked here and Van Persie is mentioned previously, so should be linked there rather than here.

Removed links Hmlarson (talk) 21:23, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Citation tag needs dealing with.

Dealt with. Hmlarson (talk) 21:23, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Personal life

• Do we really need five refs for that first sentence? Ref 41 alone covers everything.

Reduced. Hmlarson (talk) 16:53, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Career statistics

• What's the ref for the club table?

Added ref. --SuperJew (talk) 18:04, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Honours

• Most of the listings here are unsourced.

Done. Hmlarson (talk) 21:36, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

References

• There are quite a few bare urls used as refs here. These need filling out to include all of the available info.

Filled out. --SuperJew (talk) 18:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 10 has an author and publishing date available.

Added. --SuperJew (talk) 18:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 11, Arsenal FC > Arsenal F.C.

Done. --SuperJew (talk) 18:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Refs 12, 27, 28 appear to have expired. Can we try recovering these, either with fresh links of archiving?

Recovered via archive. --SuperJew (talk) 18:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 14 needs an accessdate.

Added. --SuperJew (talk) 18:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• The BBC refs have inconsistent formatting. We have BBC, BBC.com, BBC Sport and BBC Sport. Maintain one style for consistency.

Done. --SuperJew (talk) 18:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 23 has an author and publishing date available and also contains a stray bracket in the accessdate.

Added. --SuperJew (talk) 18:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 26 has a publishing date available.

Added. --SuperJew (talk) 18:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Ref 30 has an author and publishing date available.

Added. --SuperJew (talk) 18:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• I've gone through the first 30 refs, the sort of things missing from the remaining ones are obvious from above.

Unfortunately, I'll be failing this one directly. The reason for this is twofold, firstly I don't think it's ready for GAN and believe it falls well short of the WP:Good article criteria in its current state. An article shouldn't really be coming to GAN with citation needed tags and bare urls as a minimum I would say. Secondly, I can see you've nominated four articles in one go and this probably the weakest of these. As the others have a more reasonable chance of gaining promotion from what I can see in a quick look, this one would be better served being brought up to scratch outside GAN before being renominated. If you have any further questions, please feel free to drop me a message. Kosack (talk) 14:07, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Kosack. I'll be updating the article within the week or so. Hmlarson (talk) 17:26, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Kosack - can you undo your closure? It's clear that we can resolve these issues fairly quickly. Thanks. Hmlarson (talk) 21:37, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

See also WP:AFCSTANDARDS. If we don't hear from you, we'll be re-listing within 48 hours. Hmlarson (talk) 00:44, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm happy for the nomination to continue for now given the quick turnaround so far, although there is still some work to go. I'm not sure why you're quoting WP:AFCSTANDARDS which has no relevance here at all. This is not an AFC, this is a nomination for an article of sufficient quality and must meet the GA criteria. As I stated above, this fell some way short of those levels. I'll leave this open while the necessary fixes are continued and then I'll go through again, cheers. Kosack (talk) 07:35, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

(Replying from comment on talk page) GAN is really more for ironing out minor kinks in articles before ultimately promoting them to GA status I would say. The GAN instructions page does advise users to check against all GA criteria and to ensure that the MoS and formatting guidelines are adhered to before nomination. As I said, I'm willing to leave the nomination open for now if you plan on making further improvements in a reasonable timeframe. Kosack (talk) 16:06, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Kosack - reminding you that there are some questions above requiring your attention. Thanks Hmlarson (talk) 16:45, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Second pass

@Hmlarson: With the significant overhaul of the article that has been undertaken, I've done a second more thorough review now as this is not far off being a new article to the one that I originally went through.

Lead

• "2018–19 FA WSL league title", league isn't really needed here as essentially, with the abbreviation, the sentence is saying FA Women's Super League league title.
  • Removed. --SuperJew (talk) 16:13, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• Link Football Writers' Association.
  • Linked. --SuperJew (talk) 16:20, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• "Miedema is also co-author of the Vivianne voetbalt series of children's comic books written in her native Dutch language", I'd try and mention this in the personal life section so we don't have to include the refs here. It's also a little unusual for information to be only appearing in the lead.
  • Moved. --SuperJew (talk) 16:20, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• Does ref 6 support her being a co-author of the series? The Telegraph article is subscription only, while the Goal reference doesn't seem to mention her being the co-author?
  • Well the information is correct as can be seen here. Can't see the Telegraph article though to tell you if it supports the claim or there is need to add a reference. --SuperJew (talk) 16:20, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Bayern Munich, 2014–17

• "she was part of a young Bayern team that remained unbeaten in the Bundesliga and won the title for the first time since 1976", the ref here (#17) doesn't support "young" or mention them being undefeated.

Removed "young" and added Soccerway ref for undefeated. Hmlarson (talk) 16:44, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Do we not have a link for FCR Duisburg? The article here states they were absorbed into MSV Duisburg (women) in time for Miedema to play against them?
  • Changed per source. --SuperJew (talk) 16:36, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• Also link SGS Essen?
  • Linked --SuperJew (talk) 16:36, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• "On 1 March, Miedema scored a goal against Bayer Leverkusen sealing her team's 2–0 victory", is this goal particularly notable?Hmlarson (talk) 15:06, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Is to me. Do you disagree for some reason Kosack? Hmlarson (talk) 23:09, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

• @Hmlarson: Well, why? She scored seven goals that season, why is this one worth mentioning? Kosack (talk) 08:34, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

She's a prolific goal scorer. My question to you is why you think this particular goal wasn't notable? Do you want to delete the sentence? Hmlarson (talk) 15:06, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Being a prolific goalscorer isn't really an explanation as to why this goal is here. The reason I've questioned it's notability is because the sentence makes no allusion as to why the goal is notable. Why is this goal included over the several hundred others in her career? If there's nothing particularly notable about the goal then I would certainly question its inclusion. Kosack (talk) 15:10, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Really? Did you not ask to expand this section earlier in the review? Do you hold this random standard for all articles? This seems extraordinarily stodgy. Please provide a link to the guideline you're using to justify. The sentence justifies inclusion as is. If you want to add something else, please do. Hmlarson (talk) 17:25, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Random standard? No this is actually basic standards across all football articles. Not every goal is notable, take a look at other similar GA or FA class articles for examples. Kosack (talk) 08:46, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

My view is that the text reads better if it connects her goal to the absence, something along the lines of "In the next match she scored her first goal since November".Edwininlondon (talk) 13:18, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Edwininlondon Feel free to modify. Thanks. Hmlarson (talk) 00:54, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

• "She helped Bayern Munich defend the title the following season with 14 goals in 22 matches", the ref here (#20) doesn't support much of this sentence.

Swapped soccerway.Hmlarson (talk) 23:09, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

• The sourcing for the two sentences at the end of the second paragraph needs tightening. The ref included (#22) doesn't mention Wolfsburg and doesn't really support any of the Champions' League info.

Added supplemental refs.Hmlarson (talk) 23:09, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Arsenal, 2017–

• "moved to English club, Arsenal", don't think we need the comma after club.
  • Removed. --SuperJew (talk) 16:54, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• "four goals in the 11 matches she played, including 9 starts", avoid switching between digits and words when mentioning comparative figures, per MOS:NUMNOTES.
  • Fixed. --SuperJew (talk) 16:54, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• "Arsenal finished in third place during the regular season with a 11–3–4 record and advanced to the WSL Cup", I'm not sure her Soccerway profile is a sufficient reference for this. Perhaps add a league table source alongside it?

✓ Added missing period and swapped ref.Hmlarson (talk) 23:14, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

• "and advanced to the WSL Cup", the Cup was not linked to the league in anyway though was it? So advanced seems to be implying a link that doesn't exist.
  • Reworded. --SuperJew (talk) 16:54, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• In the last sentence of the first paragraph, link Final to 2018 FA WSL Cup Final and add a link for Manchester City.
  • Linked. --SuperJew (talk) 16:54, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• Liverpool are linked in the second paragraph, but are mentioned in the first. Move the link to the first mention.
  • Moved link. --SuperJew (talk) 16:54, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• "Arsenal finished first in the regular season with a 20–2–0 record, marking the first time the club had clinched the title since 2012", not much of this sentence is actually supported by the two refs included.
  • Refs updated Hmlarson (talk) 16:50, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
• "Five days later, she was shortlisted for the Ballon d'Or Féminin", worth mentioning how she fared in the vote?
  • Added. --SuperJew (talk) 16:54, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• "advanced to the League Cup", same issue as above. Is the League Cup linked to league positions? If not, advanced is probably the wrong word.
  • Reworded. --SuperJew (talk) 16:54, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Senior

• There are still issues with the Scotland paragraph. Phrases like "stung the palms", "crudely upended" and "in the driving seat" are not encyclopaedic in tone.

As I mentioned above, please provide preferred wording. Hmlarson (talk) 23:41, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

@Hmlarson: The paragraph needs rewriting, rather than simply changing one or two words. For example, "she stung the palms of Scottish goalkeeper Gemma Fay with a fierce drive which was prodded home by Lieke Martens" has several issues. Stung the palms is too journalistic and can be simplified to something like "she forced a save" or "her long-range shot was saved". "Fierce drive" has the same issue and isn't really supported by the ref anyway. "Prodded" isn't really supported either, the ref states side-footed which I wouldn't regard as prodding. I would be looking at something more along the lines of "her long-range shot was saved by opposition goalkeeper Gemma Fay before Lieke Martens converted the rebound". The following two sentences have similar problems. Kosack (talk) 15:52, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Updated. Hmlarson (talk) 16:57, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Link leg to Leg (sport).
  • Linked. --SuperJew (talk) 16:59, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• "she went on to prove her worth when it mattered the most", again this is not very encyclopaedic in tone.

Updated. If you don't agree, please provide preferred wording. Hmlarson (talk) 23:41, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

• What's the source for the semi-final win over England?
  • Added refs. --SuperJew (talk) 16:59, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• and moved even further > and moved further.

Changed to extended her lead for full context. Hmlarson (talk) 23:41, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

• The last three sentences of the final paragraph all begin with she, which is a little repetitive.

Modified. Hmlarson (talk) 23:41, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Personal life

• I'd probably suggest merging the celebration info with the mention of it in the style of play section. There's no need to be repeating the info and it's probably more relevant to her play than her personal life.

Seems to be contextually relevant after the line about her brother, though, in Style of Play. Not everyone reads wikipedia articles in their entirety. I modified the sentence instead. Hmlarson (talk) 23:48, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

• Do we have any idea where Vivianne comes from? There doesn't seem to be much correlation with her birth name.
  • Can't find anything, but according to this piece it seems to be from a young age. --SuperJew (talk) 17:08, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I searched Dutch sources, but still can't find anything. It's actually not that unusual in Dutch, but I can see to foreign eyes going from Anna to Vivianne is odd.Edwininlondon (talk) 20:29, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

    No worries, if there's nothing worth adding then that's fine. Kosack (talk) 08:37, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

International goals

• Netherlands > Netherlands'
  • Fixed. --SuperJew (talk) 17:08, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Honours

• There are two London Football Awards Women's Player of the Year listed. If these are separate occurrences, they can be merged into the same listing rather than repeating the award.
  • Merged. --SuperJew (talk) 17:42, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• Two of the top goalscorer awards are unsourced.
  • Added references. --SuperJew (talk) 17:42, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

References

• In refs 15 and 70, avoid shouting in ref titles per WP:ALLCAPS.
  • Fixed. --SuperJew (talk) 17:58, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• What makes ref 24, Outside of the Boot, a reliable source? According to its own achievements page, it's accolades consist largely of being named on blog related lists.

Swapped for UEFA ref. Hmlarson (talk) 23:52, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

• There are still a few formatting inconsistencies in BBC/BBC Sport, Telegraph/Daily Telegraph and Arsenal/Arsenal FC. While these consistencies are not critical to a GAN, they will be at FA level if you choose to go there next as mentioned above.
  • Fixed. --SuperJew (talk) 17:58, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• Refs 21, 22, 47, 50, 56, 57, 58 and 63 need accessdates.
  • Added. Apart from 47, 50 which don't need as they're archived pages (have an archive date which is de facto the access date). --SuperJew (talk) 17:58, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• Ref 26 needs a publishing and accessdate.
  • Added. --SuperJew (talk) 17:58, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• Refs 29 and 39 have author available.
  • Added. --SuperJew (talk) 17:58, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• In ref 45, The Irish Times should use the newspaper parameter rather than publisher.
  • Fixed. --SuperJew (talk) 18:40, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
• Ref 71 has been updated to the following season awards so is not much use anymore.
  • Replaced. --SuperJew (talk) 18:40, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

• @Kosack: As well as the fixes above, did a run-through to clean-up all the refs. Let me know if I you see anything I missed. :) --SuperJew (talk) 22:04, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

The overall content is much improved now which is good to see, although some of the sourcing is a little ropey and needs tightening up as noted above. A few other minor issues also dotted around to take a look at also. Kosack (talk) 13:40, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Kosack - I've made more updates and added comments above. Thanks. Hmlarson (talk) 23:54, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

New suggestions 3 Nov

Kosack - please add your new suggestions down below ↓ so the order by date is clear for future reviewers. It would also be useful if you crossed out those that you've reviewed as complete. Thanks much. Hmlarson (talk) 15:01, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@Hmlarson: I've gone through once more and done some minor copyediting. You are welcome to review any of these changes but, as I say, they are minor. There are two further issues with referencing I noted:

• "Miedema scored 14 goals in 22 appearances but Bayern were deposed as champions by VfL Wolfsburg", the source for this doesn't really support the Wolfsburg part, only the goals and appearances.

Added additional ref. Hmlarson (talk) 19:43, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

• "finishing third in their group and then lost 2–1 to Japan", not seeing any of this in the source?

Added additional refs. Hmlarson (talk) 19:43, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Once these are addressed, I think we're probably there. Kosack (talk) 10:13, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Kosack. These have been updated. Hmlarson (talk) 19:43, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm satisfied that the article now meets the GA criteria and is ready for promotion. Congrats and thanks also to SuperJew and Edwininlondon for helping out. Kosack (talk) 08:00, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Kosack, SuperJew, Bring back Daz Sampson, and Edwininlondon. Hmlarson (talk) 01:57, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Cheers my pleasure :) The biggest credit is def to Hmlarson and all they do for WOSO on Wikipedia :)--SuperJew (talk) 08:48, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks everyone - to take this article from where it was to GA status is a great achievement! Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 18:00, 13 November 2020 (UTC)