Talk:Vietnamese people/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

South-East Asians or East Asians

Should vietnamese people count as SE Asians or East Asians? 31.49.93.85 (talk) 15:54, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Possible Vietnamese-Thailand similarity error

The Wikipedia article states that North Vietnamese and North Thailand share similarities. However, the research article does not state this, only suggesting that KHV (which stands for Kinh Vietnamese, the major ethnicity in Vietnam) and TAI as Thai people representing Thailand as sharing similar genomic history. The north Vietnam and north Thailand are not the only ones who share similarities - it's Vietnamese people and Thai people sharing similarities in general. 'North' should be removed.

Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2020

This article met some problems with the definition of the word "Kinh" in Kinh people. It said that the word originated from Kinh Dương Vương, the first ruler of the Vietnamese people but in fact, it means "capital city" (Kinh Đô in Vietnamese) and the term Kinh people means "people live in the capital city. Please update the article. 118.70.54.74 (talk) 15:47, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

The folk etymology has now been removed by User:DHN. If you have a source for another etymology you can point to it. – Thjarkur (talk)

About the noun "Kinh"

Someone had suggested that the name "kinh" (Jin, Gin, King) appeared during the Sui-Tang dynasty, associated with the former name "Jincheng" of Hanoi. But there is also argument that the word Kinh had originated during the Western Jin dynasty (265-316 CE) to describe the Han and sinicized settlers around Jincheng (Hanoi).

-anonymous- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:204:e37f:fff1:1096:87f8:f81b:7101 (talk) 20:53, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 October 2020

Change 82,085,826 85.32% To 96,208,984 Thanh Son Le (talk) 19:53, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. Please provide a reliable source that supports this change. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 02:05, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

CBS (Dutch) source is unreliable

The CBS source talks about Vietnamese people to mean anyone who comes from the country of Vietnam, not Kinh people. Dutch statistics are based on nationality (or national origin) not ethnicity. A Hoa or Muong would also be counted as "Vietnamese". As it states "The migration background of a person with a first-generation migration background is defined as his or her country of birth. The migration background of a person with a second-generation migration background is defined as his or her mother's country of birth, unless the mother's country of birth is the Netherlands. In that case, the migration background is defined as the father's country of birth.", using this criterion any Hmong or Cham would become Kinh if they immigrate to the Netherlands. I don't think that the list should include the Netherlands unless a more reliable source for ethnic Kinh (and not civic Vietnamese, or however else to call everyone from Vietnam including non-Kinh peoples). --Donald Trung (talk) 21:01, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Japanese source is bad too

I checked the Japanese source and it says nothing about so-called "ethnic Vietnamese" (Kinh people), it only refers to people in Japan with the Vietnamese nationality, like I had stated above this would somehow magically turn ethnic minorities and turn them into "Kinh" if they immigrate to these specific countries that register nationality and not ethnicity. Perhaps we should debate including some of these countries until better sources can be found. It's like saying that any person from the United Kingdom (including Scottish or Irish) turns into "English" when immigrating to another country. Some of these sources deserve more scrutiny. Or anyone from the United States can become "ethnic Americans" using this source too. --Donald Trung (talk) 11:29, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 August 2021

Xin key Septem9th (talk) 23:04, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Sjsisis Septem9th (talk) 23:04, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:53, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 September 2021

I want to add an audio file on how người Kinh is pronounced.

Pronunciation of người Kinh

Lachy70 (talk) 01:15, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. It does not appear there is consensus for this addition. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:35, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

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Usage of Chinese instead of Vietnamese

Can you change the Chinese translation of Việt nhân (越人) and Kinh nhân (京人) to the original Chữ Nôm người Việt (𠊛越) and người Kinh (𠊛京)?--14.244.0.22 (talk) 19:12, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Mainland China

The People's Republic of China doesn't register foreign ethnicities, even regarding foreigners naturalised into PRC citizenship citizens of Mainland China who are of foreign origin are classified using yet another separate label: "foreigners naturalised into the Chinese citizenship" (外国人入中国籍). However, if a newly naturalised citizen already belongs to a recognised existing group among the 56 ethnic groups, then he or she is classified into that ethnic group rather than the special label. (copied from "Ethnic minorities in China"), which would mean that a Vietnamese national would not have their ethnicity recorded unless they would naturalise and classify themselves as "Jing people". I can't find any reference in the source that the Vietnamese living in China are specifically "ethnic Vietnamese" or "Vietnamese people" (more like "Chinese people" than "Han Chinese" by comparison). I think that some of the people adding these numbers just see "Vietnamese people" in the title and assume that the "Vietnamese people" talked about in these sources are the same as the concept of "Vietnamese people" (known in Vietnam as "Kinh people" / "City people") where the name might confuse the editors because the same name is used for two completely different concepts (one being legal the other anthropological). --Donald Trung (talk) 21:43, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

And I just identified more bad sources for these numbers this way, the French source talks about the "Vietnamese community in France" particularly relating to Vietnamese New Year (which isn't even an ethnic exclusive event within Vietnam but it doesn't state directly that it refers to Vietnamese nationals so it is not a bad source like the others but bot good either), the German source specifically talks about "migration background" utilising the same language and classifications as the Dutch source. The Australian source likewise also talks about "country of origin" of migrants. The Canadian source is stronger as it differentiates Hmong people from Vietnamese and Laotian and specifically lists "Cambodian (Khmer)" as an ethnicity indicating that the Canadians do differentiate better, but doesn't seem to mention any other "sub-national" ethnic minority other than the "Karen people" while using terms like "ethnic Singaporeans", "Malaysians", and "Taiwanese" all of which are references to multi-ethnic regions. I don't see a strong case that most of these sources even specifically talk about Kinh people as opposed to Vietnamese nationals and their descendants unless we have to assume that every reference to "Vietnamese people" should always refer to Kinh people. --Donald Trung (talk) 21:52, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

@Donald Trung: It's true that those numbers do not specifically refer to ethnic Vietnamese (Kinh people). However, I believe the majority of Vietnamese citizens immigrating to Japan, South Korea or some Nordic countries - you name it, is ethnic Vietnamese. Of course, it is always possible to add ~ or > to indicate an approximate value. Furthermore, you should be aware that many of these numbers do not necessarily reflect the scale of migration (and also are not always up to date). I mean, they tend not to take illegal immigrants into account, right? My solution is to add approximate sign or use round numbers. You can see most numbers here are approximation already (France ~400,000, Australia >300,000, Russia 150,000, Laos 122,000, Thailand 100,000, Czech Republic 90,000, Malaysia 80,000, Poland 60,000-80,000, United Kingdom 50,000-100,000) --Ltn12345 (talk) 02:26, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

@Ltn12345:, I agree that the majority of the "Vietnamese people" living in other countries are most likely Kinh people. The problem is with the terminology of this page itself, the "Chinese people" and "Han Chinese" people is actually superbly illustrated with how it should be done. The problem here remains that people assume that whenever someone talks about "Vietnamese people" in another source they think that it means the same as "ethnic Vietnamese people", but because Vietnamese is a nationality a lot of sources will not make an ethnic distinction, kind of how "English" and "British" people aren't the same but everyone in the latter is included in the former.

Splitting this article up in a "Vietnamese people" akin to "Chinese people" and "Kinh people" / "Kinh Vietnamese" like "Han Chinese" would solve this confusion. I've seen many rename requests of this page fail because "Vietnamese people" as a term has more results, but that fails to mention that they might be talking about a different subject altogether. Like how when someone mentions "Lang Lang is Chinese" they mean his nationality as he is an ethnic Manchu, but most foreigners won't make that distinction. Okinawans are also considered "Japanese people" but not "Yamato people", no idea why this solution wasn't implemented with this page.

I do disagree to changing the numbers to approximations, as the sources are fine for "Vietnamese people" as a broad term, but not the ethnic group this article talks about. --Donald Trung (talk) 18:18, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

@Donald Trung: I don't think we need to create a new article. In many cases, there is only one article (such as Koreans, Japanese people, Filipinos, French people, Turkish people, Ukrainians, Hungarians or Armenians). It's still possible to start an entirely new one, but I suggest adding a notice or create a disambiguation page like Bulgarians (disambiguation) or Ethnic Japanese --Ltn12345 (talk) 02:52, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Ltn12345, I didn't see this argument until now but I think that your argument misses the point, "Ethnic Japanese" redirects to a number of pages and Japanese people specifically says "Depending on the context, the term ethnic Japanese (日本民族, Nihon minzoku) may be limited or not to mainland Japanese people, specifically the Yamato (as opposed to Ryukyuan and Ainu people)." Which also applies here but is a level of nuance not mentioned in this article. Likewise your other examples conflate nationality with ethnicity again (although people can be members of multiple ethnic groups in different contexts), for example Filipino people "Filipinos (Tagalog: Mga Pilipino) are the people who are citizens of or native to the Philippines. The majority of Filipinos today come from various Austronesian ethnolinguistic groups, all typically speaking either Filipino, English, and/or other Philippine languages. Currently, there are more than 185 ethnolinguistic groups in the Philippines; each with its own language, identity, culture, and history." doesn't even call it an ethnic group, rather articles like Tagalog people, Visayans, Etc. talk about the specific ethnic groups. Turkish people state: "Article 66 of the Turkish Constitution defines a "Turk" as: "Anyone who is bound to the Turkish state through the bond of citizenship." While the legal use of the term "Turkish" as it pertains to a citizen of Turkey is different from the term's ethnic definition".
Again, all the examples you brought up generally explain nuance but this article acts as if "Kinh" and "Vietnamese" are always synonymous. This is also why that Infobox makes no sense as any person living with a Vietnamese passport in the Netherlands is regarded as "Vietnamese", this includes ethnic Taï immigrants from the Lai Châu Province and Hoa people living there. The "WP:COMMONNAME" argument doesn't work this way either as most proponents I've seen using it assume that whenever an English-language source mentions "Vietnamese people" that they mean Kinh people, but as there simply isn't written as much online about the ethnic minorities of Vietnam as there is about Vietnam in general this makes sense, likewise people use the term Chinese people way more than Han Chinese but these are distinct articles for a reason, but one can easily claim "WP:COMMONNAME" for this case as well. — Donald Trung (talk) 10:49, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

This article also randomly switches between Vietnam-wide demographics and Kinh-specific topics. For example the top two (2) sections are specifically only about the Kinh but the "Religion" section is about the general religious demographics of Vietnam and the "Diaspora" section just uses the number of Overseas Vietnamese recorded which makes no distinction between ethnic groups (only a handful of countries recognise some ethnic minorities, for example Hmong Americans, of which most are Lao). This article is all over the place because it just assumes that there's no distinction between "Vietnamese" and "Kinh" in any context. --Donald Trung (talk) 10:55, 3 January 2023 (UTC)