Talk:Van Morrison/Archive 3

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References for Astral Weeks paragraph

The references for the descriptive adjectives for Astral Weeks are rather confusing as they are placed together at the end of lines in most cases. As they couldn't be placed in order in the article (some reference several of the descriptions) and would have been disruptive in the text, I have broken them apart here. If there are any questions concerning this paragraph or more references are requested, please feel free to post here. Agadant (talk) 16:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

To this day, it remains in an unclassifiable musical genre:

• allmusic.com Allmusic: Astral Weeks
• All-Time 100 Albums
• Van Morrison Album Reviews

has been described as hypnotic:

• 19) Rolling Stone: Astral Weeks

meditative:

• Rolling Stone: Saint Dominic's Preview

unique musical power:

• allmusic.com

French Impressionism:

• Irish Times article by David Adams
• All-Time 100 Albums

Mystical Celtic Poetry:

• All-Time 100 Albums

(Mystical)

• Van Morrison Album Reviews

Good article status

Are people still working towards good article status for the Van Morrison page? If so does anyone know what has to be done to accomplish this? I would help but I don't know where to start. Kitchen roll (talk) 15:12, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Van_Morrison/Archive_2#GA_Review The JPS^{talk to me} 14:10, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Just because it failed once, shouldn't mean anything. I've put a lot of time into working on the article since it failed, virtually unaided, but I have reservations about it being nominated again. I never understood the quick failure in the first place. According to Reviewing good articles quick failure is discouraged and this article certainly was too developed at the time with 162 references, etc.. Agadant (talk) 16:54, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

The editor who nominated the article, NeilN (who expressed his amazement at the quick fail) soon left after 3 years of editing Wikipedia and has not returned. Coincidence, maybe, but I doubt it. Soon there will be no one left on Wikipedia but the above type editors - Asc85 - who accused me of being POV for too much work on here and who then goes about his drive by on articles deciding what he thinks is POV (He's the Decider) and removing it but never contributing anything himself. Agadant (talk) 18:03, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

No need to keep referencing me, especially since I gave you the last word in our previous discussions. Please move on with your life. Asc85 (talk) 18:52, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

After working for two years on this article towards getting it to GA or even FA, I'll move on (thank your very much!) when it becomes so perfect no one could with any reason not promote it. I don't give up that easy as you can see!! And if I have to do it alone, I will. Cheers! Agadant (talk) 20:22, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

You Win Again removal

Does anyone know why information about this album was removed from the article? It seems to be a very important step to understanding Morrison in the 2000s and in my opinion should be mentioned in this article. Also The Skiffle Sessions - Live in Belfast 1998 - this is an official Van Morrison album that will be rereleased by Exile in 2009 (if that's the reason why they aren't in this article: they have a different record label.)Kitchen roll (talk) 10:03, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

This deleted and out of print album was removed during an edit to try to reduce the size of the article. It does have its own article. Also the two out of print videos (have their own articles also) and anything else not essential, including material I myself had entered. The Skiffle Sessions - Live in Belfast 1998 is mentioned in the article in the 1990s in its proper time frame. And just imagine how much longer the article will become with the new live Astral Weeks album scheduled for 2008 and with a DVD for 2009—a new record label, etc. There is just so much material and so little space in which to include it. This article is already one of the longest on musicians. Justifiably, due to his long career and influence, etc. and It currently is shorter than the Dylan article but I think we have to really consider the length of the article every time we add material now. Agadant (talk) 21:11, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

References related to the Van Morrison website

The current citations/notes linking to the Van Morrison website are not working at this time. Due to the notice on his website that the site is currently under construction, I'm sure it would be best to wait until the website is fully functional again to make any needed corrections to these citations. Accordingly, I have left them in place and will watch and make necessary corrections as soon as possible. Agadant (talk) 18:15, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Collaboration on turning this into a Good article

I notice this had a quick fail for a nomination for GA last year. I would be interested in working this article up to GA status. I place the criteria for GA here, and people can work towards each criteria and then tick them off. SilkTork *^YES! 21:55, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

What is a good article?

A good article is—

1. Well-written:

   (a) the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct; and

   (b) it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

2. Verifiable with no original research:

   (a) it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline;

   (b) reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose); and

   (c) it contains no original research.

3. Broad in its coverage:

   (a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and

   (b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:

   (a) media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content; and

   (b) media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

Comments

1. Well written: (a) the prose is clear and the spelling and grammar are correct; and (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation.

• Prose is clear. Lead section needs checking to see if it reflects the main body. SilkTork *^YES! 22:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Lead reflects contents of main body. SilkTork *^YES! 14:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

2. Factually accurate and verifiable: (a) it provides references to all sources of information, and at minimum contains a section dedicated to the attribution of those sources in accordance with the guide to layout; (b) at minimum, it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons; and (c) it contains no original research.

• Loads of references - good range of sources. Concern about some of the wording which is not always sourced, and may be a little personally loaded: "Saint Dominic's Preview, revealed Morrison's break from the more accessible style of his previous three albums and moving back towards the more daring, adventurous, and meditative aspects of Astral Weeks." SilkTork *^YES! 22:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Wording has been checked and toned down or removed or cited. SilkTork *^YES! 14:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

3. Broad in its coverage: (a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and (b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

• Some coverage of personal life would be welcome. SilkTork *^YES! 22:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Main aspects now covered - though some focus and tightening still needed. SilkTork *^YES! 19:18, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Balanced. SilkTork *^YES! 14:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.

• Possibly too positive. SilkTork *^YES! 22:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
• Language checked and adjusted for neutrality. SilkTork *^YES! 14:55, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day-to-day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

• Stable. SilkTork *^YES! 22:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

6. Illustrated, if possible, by images: (a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and (b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

• Images pass. SilkTork *^YES! 22:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

What's needed

Currently the article is quite dense, and it is difficult to wade through. There appears to be nothing on Morrison's character, yer he is famously curmudgeonly and stubborn. The lead section needs to be rewritten to give an account of his career, his personality, and his live performances as well as his critical reception. There needs to be a section on Live performances. Most Good and Featured articles on performers have such a section, and Van Morrison is famous for his stunning live performances in the 1970s, and his appalling live performances since. (When I saw him in Glastonbury there had been an ice-cream van turned over and set on fire during the festival - the NME reported that there had been "two burned out Vans!". When I saw him last year, he was simply calling out the name of the song he wanted to do, and his band were expected to jump straight into it. He didn't do a formal set list.) I'm off to see him at the Albert Hall tomorrow, doing Astral Weeks. I've heard the recording at the Hollywood Bowl, and its clear he is more into this material, and gives a decent performance, but it's not quite of the level of It's Too Late to Stop Now! However, I'm looking forward to it. Anyway, possible tasks:

• Rewrite Lead
• Add Live performance section
• Sharpen some of the chronological sections, removing some of the critical commentary to a Critical response section later in the article, or simply trimming down - most of the critical commentaries on the albums are best served in the individual articles
• Material/Section on songwriting skills
• Material/Section on voice
• Material/Section on instruments

These are just thoughts. Open to discussion. SilkTork *^YES! 00:08, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I would ask that any major changes made be discussed before being incorporated into the article such as the ones already made to the lead. As I'm sure you are aware, I've developed and referenced most of the article, never claiming to be an expert writer but always trying to be accurate and thorough in research and referencing. My time at the moment is deeply involved with a personal event in my life that will claim the majority of my time for the next week or so. Of course, I would expect to help with this project as it is something I have always been working towards. I'm kind of surprised at your above comments on his live performances since the 70s being appalling. The same can be said about Dylan and his FA article doesn't have any negative critical discussion of live performances in the lead section or of his often "prickly" personality traits. (And I'm certainly a huge Dylan fan but don't work on his article) So I'm wondering if the place for this is the lead since often the lead is all that is used for biography material on music related websites and should be the most encyclopedic sounding of all sections, IMO. Not sure if you were being negative above by saying he doesn't work from a formal set list but that is part of the spontaneity that he tries to create into the concert performance. (See the section on: His unique Style.) Hope you enjoy the concert this weekend and if I don't have anymore input for a few days it's because of the personal matter I mentioned and not through lack of interest in the article or changes to it. Thanks so much for all you are aiming for and for your valuable time and I will contribute soon.Agadant (talk) 06:26, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I tend to work organically. Trying things out and working in the moment. It's not always possible to discuss every change before doing it - however, I enjoy working collaboratively with people and ideas spark off and can be built upon when people are inputting together. Disagreements can be raised here on the talk page and settled. You raise two points above - 1) mention of his curmudgeonly nature in the lead, and b) mention of his stilted live performances since the 1970s in the lead.

"Curmudgeonly" seems to be the favourite word people and critics use about Morrison: [1] - it could almost be his middle name! I feel it is important for an understanding of the man himself. Astral Weeks would never have been made if Morrison had not been so downright stubborn. Have a look into the matter and let me know what you think.

The live performance one is more tricky - he can put in great sets or problematic sets that don't work, and he has said himself that he no longer gives performances. But I'll take it out. SilkTork *^YES! 09:17, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Unnecessary revert of my cleanup of unreferenced and meaningless edit

Page 95 of Steve Turner's biography states: "Blackburn found Van and Janet a house to rent on Oyaho (sp.?) Mountain, and then introduced Van to The Band, most of whom were at the time living in a house nicknamed Big Pink in nearby West Saugerties." - That is what the reference for this sentence says and nothing about Bob Dylan (which would serve no purpose here anyway.) Accordingly I will stand behind the integrity of the reference and working towards a GA rating, neither of which is served by allowing this edit to stand. [2] Agadant (talk) 04:31, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I don't see the relevance of mentioning Bob Dylan living nearby. SilkTork *^YES! 07:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Placing this material

NPOV pushes us toward being as factual as possible, and being very careful with interpretation and opinion. WP:ASF is a useful guide. However, what can be usefully used is a critical summary section, usually placed near the end of an article, in which properly cited views of critical analysis. Blending critical commentary and factual details is problematic and can hinder GA reviews. I suggest we create a critical commentary section which would make use of the material already in the sections: The Van Morrison influence, His unique style and Caledonia. We need also to look carefully at the statement made in the second sentence, and ensure that such a summary is sourced - preferably to more than one source.

Many of the places of Morrison's childhood, such as Cyprus Avenue, Fitzroy, Hyndford Street, Sandy Row and "Orangefield" (the boys' school he attended), would find their way into the lyrics of some of his most famous songs. His contented and self-absorbed childhood has been an important factor in the nostalgic and searching tone of much of his music throughout his long career. After the death of his father in April 1988, Morrison honoured his father's memory with the song "Choppin' Wood", which he often performs in concert.

SilkTork *^YES! 07:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I was fond of that second sentence, though. I think it is a summation of just a lot of reading about his music and childhood. It would be possible but probably difficult to find the sources that apply. Agadant (talk) 00:56, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

It's always a tricky one that. I suppose it helps to think of Wikipedian articles as works of reference rather than interpretation. Let the people reading make their own interpretations. A book or magazine article on Morrison can be speculative and advance an idea that he is being nostalgic in certain songs, but a reference work simply gives the facts. We could have a statement such as "Morrison has often stated that he had a happy childhood" within the Early life section. Then later in the Critical response section, "Critics have found a nostalgic and searching tone in much of his music." Both statements supported by references. However, if you put both those statements side by side that would be WP:SYNTHESIS (unless a critic had made that observation).

Wikipedia:NPOV#A_simple_formulation is also worth reading, as that is something all of us, me especially, slip into all too easily. And the more you know a subject, and have read loads of stuff that you just "know", the easier it is to just say that the Beatles are the greatest band in the world or Astral Weeks is one of the greatest albums ever made. (I just made an adjustment to a sentence I inserted earlier about his live performances while writing this!) SilkTork *^YES! 19:11, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

References

discography section

Should the discography section be listed as in the U2 article? U2 discography If so, I'll do the necessary work to change it over. Agadant (talk) 12:57, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

It does seem to be the main way that featured articles present discographies, so that would be the way to go. I like the clean simplicity of it. If people would like more detailed information they can go to the discography article. Well spotted! SilkTork *^YES! 21:47, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Done! Whew! Does any other singer/musician have as lengthy a discography as VM? And that's without the compilations! Agadant (talk) 00:33, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Off the top of my head: Frank Zappa. SilkTork *^YES! 19:14, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

This sentence seems awkward

This led to Morrison (at the relatively young age of twelve) to form his first band. — But I can't think of how to change it for best wording. Anyone? Agadant (talk) 22:51, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. Yes, I think the "relatively young age" could be seen as introducing a POV based on unseen knowledge (the age that other musicians started groups is knowledge not widely available). The age alone should speak for itself. SilkTork *^YES! 07:53, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

As is stated in the article, Mr. Morrison started a band (Midnight Special) at the age of 14. And, this band landed a at least one gig to perform at a school concert. Hence, at 14 he formed a band that played for others (and not just for itself). I happen to view that as a "relatively young age" for initiating a viable enterprise.

Also, given the range of maturity that spans from age 13 to age 19, I personally do not view being a teenager as speaking for itself -- there is a definite range there. [For example, most students in the States are admitted to college as teenagers at the age of 18. But, one would likely characterize a 14 year old being admitted as being at a relatively young age.]

However, if others do find it too POV, then I do not object. This is just an explanation regarding why I characterized his age as relatively young.--Designquest10 (talk) 13:32, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

No explanation needed. It's quite clear what the intention was, and there is no criticism in the reviewing of the sentence. We all write sentences like that because it's sort of obvious, and the wording is sensible and natural. I passed over it in my first reading of it and found it OK because I agree that 12 does seem like a young age at which to form a band. But Agadant was right to think about it. I like the way you have corrected some of my wording and made it much better by the way. SilkTork *^YES! 13:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I (for sure) didn't mean any criticism and also find Designquest10's contributions as very useful. What I really was unsure of was the way This led to Morrison read with to form his first band if you excluded the part in parenthesis. I never even thought of POV implications. That's a good catch on your part SilkTork. Agadant (talk) 14:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC) I keep trying to think of a substitution for [led to] that would sound better with [Morrison to form his first band] but can't come up with anything. Am I just being too picky here? Agadant (talk) 15:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes. I see what you mean. We are making a judgement that the guitar and book led to VM forming a band. SilkTork *^YES! 16:17, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Not sure about this material

BBC2 filmed a career overview entitled One Irish Rover for its Arena series broadcast in March, 1991. The film opened with Van Morrison and Bob Dylan singing a duet on the Hill of the Muses above Athens, Greece. Dylan and Morrison performed duets on "Crazy Love", "Foreign Window", and "One Irish Rover". The Independent described "the Irish singer flanked by Bob Dylan and the Acropolis: all three of them legendary, all looking their age, and all a waste of time talking to with a microphone in your hand."

Another television documentary shown just a few days later comprised part of a series on Channel 4, called Without Walls. Named "Coney Island of the Mind", the documentary involved Morrison in discussions with the Irish poets: Michael Longley, Seamus Deane and John Montague. The poets and Morrison discussed the relationship among poetry, music and mysticism. Also in 1991, he wrote and produced four songs for a Tom Jones album including the title song, "Carrying a Torch". Morrison also included the song on his successful 1991 double album, Hymns to the Silence.

I think there's some good stuff in there but I couldn't sort it out. SilkTork *^YES! 13:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

As the one who included it, I remember thinking that the "One Irish Rover" TV show seemed to be worth including as I had often seen it mentioned in biographies, etc. And I thought the quotation about BD, VM and the Acropolis was a good piece of writing, so included it. Do you think the Live Performances section would be a good place for it? As for the "Coney Island of the Mind" documentary, it's probably not that noteworthy or known. Agadant (talk) 14:17, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I also liked the quote. Wasn't sure what information it is giving the reader though. We know, as people interested in VM that it refers to his notorious reluctance to speak to journalists, but I'm wondering if we could give that information in a more direct manner.

I wondered if some of the material in the second paragraph could be used in the collaborations section.

Take away the quote from One Irish Rover, and I'm not sure what information is being given: that VM had an Arena documentary? We have an Awards and recognition section, and that might be the best place for it, but I'm wondering if it's worth it. Biographies do mention things like getting the cover of Time magazine - but is an Arena documentary on the same scale? - I've just looked, and people like Bob Dylan who had Arena documentaries, don't have it mentioned in their articles. That doesn't mean we shouldn't. I'm just a bit uncertain. SilkTork *^YES! 23:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

References

Audio sample for "Astral Weeks"

Does anyone have the know-how to make an audio file for "Astral Weeks" with the famous opening lyrics: If I ventured in the slipstream/between the viaducts of your dreams/and the mobile steel rims crack/...... (SilkTork you know I probably mean you!) I never learned how to do the audio files.

I think that would be a great addition to the article as we already have "BEG", "Gloria", "Wavelength", each of which serves to give an example of a very different musical genre and vocal style. ...another thought is to do an audio file of the same opening lines but using a sample from the new live version of "Astral Weeks". Perhaps alongside the quotation in the Musicianship section where he gives the explanation for how his voice has deepened over the years. (often pointed out in reviews) By the way the quoted part is not included in the online source but is taken from the actual magazine. Performing Songwriter. Agadant (talk) 13:54, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

That's the first time I've done one of those. The instructions in Wikipedia:Music samples are very good. I shall rip the live Astral Weeks track from my copy of Hollywood Bowl when I get it out of my cd changer in the car tomorrow. SilkTork *^YES! 17:08, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Great going, Silktork! I think it's a great addition to the article and with a contrasting live version 40 years later will be even more so! Also a "BIG" thanks for all your great editing work in general. I'm going to be working on the Musicianship section to expand it. Will we include songwriting skills, voice, musical instruments in this section as a whole or separately? Agadant (talk) 19:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I shall try to remember to do the live Astral Weeks track tonight. I will be slightly busy over the weekend, and I need a good couple of free hours to do what I next want to do on the article, so it's likely to be some time next week before I get down to some serious work here. But after several hours of decent work I feel it should be ready for nomination for GA - hopefully by next weekend. There tends sometimes to be a bit of a wait for a review, so general work on the article will continue. After that it will be adressing the concerns of the GA Reviewer. So there is a little way to go yet! SilkTork *^YES! 15:53, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, SilkTork, The AWLATHB audio clip sounds great - makes me want to go to one of the great Astral Weeks Live concerts I've been reading so much about! Agadant (talk) 00:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

This sentence

Vocals

"As Morrison began live performances of the most acclaimed album of his catalogue with Astral Weeks Live in 2008, the comparisons to his youthful voice of 1968 were inevitable." Does the last part of the sentence need to be rewritten to avoid leading the reader to a conclusion or some other reason? I'm just starting to fill in this part a little bit but don't want to get off the track to start out. Agadant (talk) 11:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I think it reads well with a clear intent. To avoid the passive construction, if you wished, one small change could be made:

"As Morrison began live performances of the most acclaimed album of his catalogue with Astral Weeks Live in 2008, the comparisons to his youthful voice of 1968 became inevitable."--Designquest10 (talk) 13

00, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Designquest - done! Agadant (talk) 23:44, 3 May 2009 (UTC)