Talk:Vaisakhi/Archive 1

Archive 1

Sikh Ordination of Hindus

The following statement on this page is interesting:

For many centuries after that, the first male child of all families of Hindus in Punjab was ordained as a Sikh.

From oral family tradition, I know this is/was true. Does it appear on other pages like Sikh, Sikhism, Hindu, etc.?--iFaqeer 01:56, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

Lexicology of Vaisakhi

I know "Vaisakhi" would be the more accurate Sanskrit rendition. But isn't the more common word "Basakhi"? And right now the article it titled one thing and mentions only the other. That's confusing. We need to convey the whole picture and not confuse people. I think we should mention both variations and how they are used.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 00:09, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)

Likely Basakhi is the word in a particular modern language related to Sanskrit (Hindi, Punjabi, Bengali), not unlike Italian and Latin coexisting in Catholic usage in Italy. Sometimes, Sanskrit is the backformation. Someone more certain of this particular case should update. SM 04:28, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

--Although many people say "Basakhi" it is just a distorted version caused by saying it quickly. It is properly pronounced "Vi + Saa + Khee", and commonly spelled Vaisakhi. (23 Oct 2007)

When is Vaisakhi  ?

When is Vaisakhi in the Gregorian calendar ? -- 199.71.174.100 00:10, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to ask the same question again this year. The first day of the second month in the Nanakshahi calendar is always April 14. So, should Vaisakhi always be on April 14, now that there is a standardized Sikh calendar ? -- 199.71.174.100 21:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Our local Sikhs are holding a Celebration and Open House the weekend of April 26, 27, 28 2013 -- so the dates may be an approximation, based on some other calendar. This could be clarified by one who knows. HalFonts (talk) 01:15, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Sikh? Hindu? Both?

This should be clarified. SM 04:28, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs both celebrate the festival. It currently focuses only on the Sikhs, which is a shame. I don't the time to add info on Punjabi Hindus celebrating Vaisakhi, especially with sources. Gizza^{Chat ©} 07:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Vaisakhi is also celebrated by Punjabi Muslims in Pakistan.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.128.20 (talk • contribs)

So it is a Punjabi (harvest) festival, not a religious one. We'll need to find sources in the long term but I change it now. Gizza^{Discuss ©} 03:59, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I just finished reorganizing the article lead and didn't realize this issue was under discussion on the talk page till now! Anyway, hopefully you'll find my changes and citations to be an improvement.

When mentioning other Indian cultures who have new year day on this day, please also mention that this day is also the "Tamil New Year"

Abecedare 07:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

When is Vaisakhi  ?

What is it with the 13 to 14 change can anyone explain it simply and briefly???

vaisaki is a festival in sikhism sophie davis an english reporter went to see this festival & found the culture was indeed intresting

Change was caused by the recalculation according to the Gregorian calendar. It is said that there is a discrepancy as there are two governing bodies that decide when Vaisakhi is to be celebrated. I shall find out more and post again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.7.56.226 (talk) 00:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Not the Sikh New Year

There is a common misbeleif that Vaisakhi/Baisakhi is the Sikh new year. It is not! 1 Chet is, which occurs about 1 month prior to this!Manmeets (talk) 16:34, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed with above, many cultures consider the Spring Equinox the logical start of the New Year (March 21st more or less).

My original question here was the use of the term "HARVEST festival" - It seems to me (in the Northern Hemisphere) "harvest" would be in the Fall or Autumn, whereas a Spring Festival would be the beginning of the cultivation cycle. Can someone clarify this ??? HalFonts (talk) 01:25, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: Hi Sarah. I noticed the main article was edited bu another user to remove reference to Sikh new year. I do not have the references so I have not edited the article but the Sikh new year is today (14 March) as per the Nanakshahi calendar. Baisakhi is the Punjabi new year per the solar calendar in use in Punjab region. Baisakhi is also regarded as the Khalsa new year. Baisakhi is further a harvest festival celebrated by Sikhs and non-Sikhs (in Punjab region, India at least). I am trying to get WP: RS. (Malikhpur) 16:44, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

@Malikhpur: Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs, or for taking sides with SGPC/Nanakshahi/other Sikh groups. We just summarize the history and other information that is already in published reliable sources. If you find a reliable source, we can certainly add something to clarify multiple views within the Sikh community on new year. The best place to clarify this may not be this article, but the Nanakshahi calendar article. Of course, if we do, it must be based on scholarly or similar peer reviewed reliable sources, not some random blog, website or tabloid/newspaper advertisement, etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:05, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: Thanks Sarah. I will come back to Wikipedia as soon as I have found acceptable sources. Many thanks. (Malikhpur) 18:29, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: Sarah, I have added reference to the Khalsa Sambat in the article according to which the Khalsa new year starts with Vaisakhi. (Malikhpur) 19:04, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Pakistan celebrations

@Ms Sarah Welch: Hi Sarah

You have removed the following paragraph which I took directly from Social Customs and Practices in Pakistan (1977).

For them, Vaisakh (the first month of the indigenous solar calendar) brings in nature's bounty with festivities starting in the beginning of April with vigorous dancing and singing for which the village-folk of the Punjab are famous. At numerous places farmers gather together in large numbers dressed in their best for the festival. People dance bhangra to celebrate the harvest.

I know Pakistan officially recognises Islamic festivals but people do celebrate the harvest festival of Vaisakhi. I do not understand why the above has been removed but you have retained a reference to the same book in the opening sentence.

(Malikhpur) 20:56, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

References

@Malikhpur: I have taken out the first sentence too. I would welcome content from peer reviewed scholarly publications and quality WP:RS that state Vaisakhi is observed by mainstream, majority Pakistani Muslim populations in its provinces of Punjab or Sindh or wherever. I tried to locate such sources, but I find none. Even the news articles from Pakistan make no mention of Muslims celebrating Vaisakhi, they only mention Sikh visitors and pilgrims. We cannot rely on rare, fringe-y old publications and then (mis)represent in this article that Vaisakhi is a major or even minor Pakistani festival, when reliable sources do not reflect this. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:16, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

@Sarah Welch: Thank you. I do have more recent books in my possession which confirm Vaisakhi is celebrated as a harvest festival in Punjab. Vaisakhi is not a Sindhi harvest festival. However, they are written by Pakistani writers and represent field research which will not be acceptable to Wikipedia. I will see if I can get sources on my next trip to India this year.

(Malikhpur) 21:25, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Vaisakha and Vaisakhi

@121.219.246.14:, @124.180.133.123: These terms are similarly spelled and the two festivals are celebrated in the same month. This needs to be clarified, per the cited sources. Your edit comment is unclear, because what you deleted nowhere states that Vaisakha / Vesak is a Hindu or Sikh festival. Similarly the hat note with "About" template, is per wikipedia guidelines per that template. Please explain your concern. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:12, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Please see this encyclopedia entry. It discusses Buddhist Vaisakha and Hindu/Sikh Vaisakhi together, and clarifies these terms just like this wikipedia article does. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:28, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: Yes that's true but that doesn't need to be mentioned on this article as it's already mentioned on Vaisakha, the correct page to mention something like this. None of the sources point out any link to it being related to Vaisakhi just because they share a similar name doesn't mean they are related. They celebrate two different things. Just because they fall in the same month doesn't mean they are related in some way, it's a completely unrelated festival and the term "Vaisakha" is not used by any of the countries that recognize it as a public holiday it is known as "Vesak/Wesak/Waisak", "Buddha's Birthday" or "Buddha Purnima". This page is not about the month "Vaisakha" it's about an unrelated Hindu and Sikh New Year festival so there is no need to mention it here. Vesak is not a New Year festival and Vesak is celebrated at a different time, it's even more different for some East Asian countries like Japan who celebrate Vesak in April and all other Buddhist countries celebrate it in mid to late May not mid April. Like I said, does it mean Magha Purnima is related to Magha Puja just because they both use the same Sanskrit name? No it doesn't. In regards to the second statement, the "Vesak" section is under the "Hinduism" subheading. (121.219.246.14 (talk) 01:40, 3 April 2017 (UTC))

Vesak is also celebrated according to the lunar calendar in accordance to the full moon not the solar calendar. (121.219.246.14 (talk) 01:42, 3 April 2017 (UTC))

It's like saying Christmas, Hannukah and Kwanzaa are related because they generally fall around the same month or that Easter and Nowruz are related because they both sometimes fall in March. (121.219.246.14 (talk) 01:51, 3 April 2017 (UTC))

The book you gave as a source does not support your claims, that section of the book discusses the month of "Vaisakha" and thus it's more suitable for the actual page known as Vaisakha not on a page that discusses a festival that happens to fall in that month. This page discusses a festival that occurs in the month of Vaisakha it's not about the month "Vaisakha". (121.219.246.14 (talk) 01:54, 3 April 2017 (UTC))

@121.219.246.14: The article never states that they are same or related. Where does it state that they are? It clarifies in few sentences that it is different. Such clarification makes the article more encyclopedic, just like the published encyclopedia linked above. Are you seriously alleging that this source's entry does not discuss Buddhist Vesak and Hindu/Sikh Vaisakhi festival together? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:11, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: I don't know whether you understand this or not, I have already pointed this out above. This page is not about the month Vaisakha, this is about a festival that occurs in the month of Vaisakha. The source you continue to point to discusses the month of Vaisakha and the festivals that fall during it. Vesak is already discussed explicitly on the Vaisakha page, there is no need to mention it here when it has nothing to do with it. I hope that's clearer to understand. Is there a specific reason as to why you are so intent on mentioning it here? I can understand if this page discusses the month of Vaisakha but it doesn't, so I don't understand why you would want to mention it here. (121.214.150.224 (talk) 11:03, 3 April 2017 (UTC))

Also this is a note my IP address changes all the time so I just want to let you know that I'm the same user despite the dynamic IP addresses. (121.214.150.224 (talk) 11:04, 3 April 2017 (UTC))

You are wrong about the sources. Please read again. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:43, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: I have read your source regarding the part about Vaisakha and Vaisakhi (Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism), that section is about the month of Vaisakha and the celebrations that occur in it. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that? What is it exactly that you're trying to point out to me, you told me there is no relation so why is it even mentioned on this article? Why did you remove the word "unrelated" if you agree that they're unrelated? Vesak and Vaisakhi are two completely different celebrations that use two different calendar systems, acknowledge two different things and occur at two different times of the year. I can understand the inclusion of information about other South and Southeast Asian New Year festivals because they all use a calendar system that derived from an older version of the Hindu calendar. Vesak, however, is not a new year or harvest festival, it doesn't use the solar calendar and it occurs at a different time of the year, there is no relation whatsoever. Vaisakhi is determined by the solar calendar (Bikrami calendar) where the month of Vaisakha/Besakh/Baisakh is the first month of the year. Vesak uses the lunar calendar (Buddhist calendar) where the month of Vaisakha is the second month of the year not the first and uses the moon cycle to determine each month not the position of the sun. They use the same name but they aren't related thus there is no need to mention it on this article. There is already a page called Vaisakha (the month) that discusses this already. How long am I going to have to point this out for you to understand? I don't think this discussion is actually going anywhere because it keeps going around in circles. I'm willing to take this to the Administrators' Noticeboard to get a third opinion, if you want to? In my opinion, I think that might be more helpful. (121.219.117.24 (talk) 23:48, 3 April 2017 (UTC))

You are misrepresenting the source again. It is an article on Vaisakha and Vaisakhi, one that discusses Hindu and Sikh new year festivals, and the Buddhist festival of Vesak, all within one article. The subject of this article is Vaisakhi, and not "new year or harvest festival". An encyclopedic article is a comprehensive summary of information about a particular subject. A few clarifying sentences and wiki-link to Buddhist festival Vaisakha, also called Vaisakhi Purnima, belongs here. You keep lecturing about calendar inappropriately. Feel free to take it to an appropriate AN. @Robert McClenon: isn't DRN probably the better noticeboard? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:03, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

User:Ms Sarah Welch and unregistered editor - Please do not take content disputes to WP:AN or WP:ANI. This appears to be a content dispute. Taking content disputes to a conduct forum such as WP:AN or WP:ANI will cause your conduct to be examined (see the boomerang essay), and may cause hard feelings, but won't get the content issue resolved. Read the dispute resolution policy. For a third opinion, go to the Third Opinion noticeboard. At the dispute resolution noticeboard, a volunteer mediator will try to facilitate compromise. If you want the opinions of the community as a whole, use a Request for Comments. Also, consider registering an account; it preserves your edit history better than an IP address does, and preserves your privacy if you use a pseudonym (as opposed to using a real name). Robert McClenon (talk) 01:18, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: If this page was about Vaisakhi as in the month Vaisakha why does it say, Vaisakhi (Punjabi: ਵਿਸਾਖੀ, IAST: visākhī), also known as Baisakhi, Vaishakhi, or Vasakhi is a historical and religious festival in Sikhism. It is usually celebrated on April 13 or 14 every year. Vaisakhi marks the Sikh new year and commemorates the formation of Khalsa panth of warriors under Guru Gobind Singh in 1699. It is additionally a spring harvest festival for the Sikhs.? Please read the article, Vaisakha and understand why that is the correct page to provide information like this. Please read the opening sentence of your source it clearly describes it as a month of the lunar calendar. Also no one calls it Vaisakha that is a Sanskrit word for the festival. The traditional language of Buddhism is not Sanskrit it's Pali and all the countries that do use an Indic-origin word for the festival use "Vesak". The way the paragraph about Vesak has been written on this article makes it seem like it's the Buddhist version of Vaiskahi when it's not, they don't even occur at the same time of the year. You continue to remove references regarding it being "unrelated" yet you agree that they aren't related. If that is the case, then why are you removing all references to it being unrelated? I think we need a third opinion to solve this. (121.219.117.24 (talk) 02:03, 4 April 2017 (UTC))

@Hopping IP: The word "unrelated" is unnecessary, because it is implicit with the redirection. For a compromise, I will let it remain. While Pali indeed has been the major language for Buddhism, important texts of Buddhism have been in Sanskrit and other languages too. It is your OR / wisdom / prejudice when you allege, "no one calls it Vaisakha". Please avoid WP:FORUM, let us stick to what the sources are stating. Buddhist Vaisakha = Vesak = Vaisakhi Purnima, etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:27, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: Thank you for that. I thought it was necessary because for example, "Songkran" is the name used to refer to the Thai New Year and the Lao New Year, which is related to the Thai New Year, also uses the term "Songkran". So, a distinguish template will need a little more information indicate that they both share the same name and are related as well. In regards to the generalization that was undue on my part and I apologize for that, you are indeed right that Sanskrit has had a notable amount of influence on Buddhist literature especially in East Asia. I'm still not entirely convinced that Vesak should be mentioned here and I believe it is more appropriate for the Vaisakha page. The source provided doesn't justify its inclusion because all it's doing is describing festivals that are significant to the month of Vaiskha which I should point out have different starting times for each religion as one starts with the full moon, while the other starts with the position of the sun. Is there any other source that justifies its inclusion? I don't think the similarities of a name warrants a paragraph about it as the distinguish template already does that, that's why I'm asking. (121.214.173.144 (talk) 10:11, 4 April 2017 (UTC))

@121.214.173.144: Many readers of wikipedia (or any encyclopedia) are unaware of terminology in East/Southeast/South Asia. This article is better if it is both a reference for those familiar with Asian festivals, and a starting point for the curious many outside Asia. Further, some arrive to an article after misspelling a word. Putting a fire wall between Buddhism and Sikhism or Hinduism is neither constructive nor inclusive, it is a soft form of Buddhism-isolation / Buddhism-bashing. The "Vaisakhi festival" and "Vaisakhi Purnima festival" are too similarly spelled (in some regions), and it does no harm to mention the latter, and note the difference between the two in a few sentences. It actually improves the encyclopedic depth of the article. Look at the other secondary and tertiary sources cited in the article, such as one by Pechilis, you will see additional support. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:03, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: I understand and no I am not trying to bash Buddhism because I am a Buddhist. I hope I didn't sound like I was trying to "bash" the other religions after all they are all Dharmic religions and share many similarities. To make myself more clearer, I respect all religions it doesn't matter if they are Dharmic or not. Okay I guess in regard to being civil and working together as editors, I will let this stay as a compromise as well, like you did for me. I think however something should be mentioned about Vesak occuring in accordance to the lunar calendar while Vaisakhi occurring in accordance to the solar calendar to make it more encyclopedic, if that makes sense. (121.214.173.144 (talk) 12:33, 4 April 2017 (UTC))

I think it's safe to say, we don't need a third opinion anymore. (121.214.173.144 (talk) 12:35, 4 April 2017 (UTC))

Indeed. Done. Thanks for making an effort to collaborate, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:12, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you @Ms Sarah Welch: for that and you're welcome. Happy editing! (121.214.173.144 (talk) 13:19, 4 April 2017 (UTC))

Unsourced changes

@SikhResourceSociety: Welcome to wikipedia. Please see wikipedia content policies and guidelines, particularly about verifiability and reliable sources. I reverted your changes. If you have concerns please discuss them here. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:05, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 April 2017

Vaisakhi is celebrated as Vaisakhadi in West Bengal --> this is incorrect.

It should be "Vaisakhi is celebrated as Pahela Baishakh in West Bengal" 43.239.125.197 (talk) 13:03, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Done. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:13, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Date for 2018

Drik Pankchang gives 14 April as date for 2018; http://www.drikpanchang.com/festivals/vaisakhi/vaisakhi-date-time.html refers

Simple google search returns 14 April 2018. Needs fixing in the box. Whiteguru (talk) 04:38, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

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