Talk:University Canada West/Archive 3

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Report Editor

(Note that my comments below prior to 15:12, 2 April 2014 were all copied by from previous discussions by Goburst --Ronz (talk) 15:18, 2 April 2014 (UTC))

This is correct23.16.212.151 (talk) 15:37, 2 April 2014 (UTC)Goburst (talk) 15:39, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

How do you report an editor whose contributions could be viewed as restrictive, manipulative, and undue?

How is the following a consensus:

I've gone ahead and removed the mention of CDI. It was added here in case someone wants to try to find if there might be context that we're missing that explains its inclusion. --Ronz (talk) 00:27, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

As for the rest of the information that was removed, as I mentioned on my talk, the information was grossly undue and promotional, sourced with a profile from a pr website: http://www.aosaschool.com/management_team/ds.php

Whatever is going on with CDW, it's clear that they're trying to clean up their image. Without third-party press to draw upon, we should take care what, if anything, we change in the article. --Ronz (talk) 00:34, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Please, let's keep this a Consensus trust the process remember our Wikipedia:Etiquetteand not so quick to assume

Ronz can you please be more specific? The entire document you claim was "sourced with a profile from a pr website:

":As for the rest of the information that was removed, as I mentioned on my talk, the information was grossly undue and promotional, sourced with a profile from a pr website: http://www.aosaschool.com/management_team/ds.php

Whatever is going on with CDW, it's clear that they're trying to clean up their image. Without third-party press to draw upon, we should take care what, if anything, we change in the article. --Ronz (talk) 00:34, 2 April 2014 (UTC

Lastly, to clear up my submission of the supposed "PR website source" here is a link to the University of Victoria Past Presidents this should resolve the credibility of Dr. David F Strong's Biography as founder of University Canada West. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Goburst (talk • contribs) 04:04, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

You'll note it says, "Strong went on to become founding president and vice-chancellor of University Canada West, Canada’s first private for-profit university."

If you believe Strong is notable on his own, start an article about him. This article is about UCW. --Ronz (talk) 02:54, 2 April 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Goburst (talk • contribs)

Again, the credentials and background of university Canada west's founding president and vice chancellor are not related to University Canada West? You don't believe this history should be recorded? Goburst (talk) 05:49, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Goburst, you have no need to report an editor, yet. First, Ronz is actually following the editing processes here ... this article has been a magnet for promotion, whitewashing, and pure unadulterated crap. Second, I'm an administrator here on the English Wikipedia, and was originally drawn to this page because of the stuff mentioned above, and have paid close attention to all edits to this page since I arrived. I've questionned Ronz once or twice over the years, but generally they're on the ball.

Now, I do not believe that you're trying to insert the wrong things on this article - you appear to be trying to do the right thing, and that's good. There's a heck of a lot of stuff that does not belong in this article, and as you're new here, you might be having challenges recognizing what is and what is not relevant - don't worry, after time (and after reviewing similar articles on Wikipedia) you'll definitely get the hang of it.

Please follow the process. We don't do "motions" to change ... we start a section, we suggest the exact wording, we relate DIRECTLY to reliable sources, and after a week or so of discussion, SOMEONE can determine consensus. It's easy, and it's how Wikipedia works. Please don't get snarky because someone removed something that shouldn't have been there - perhaps you should not edit the article directly while you learn, and only discuss? Perhaps someone can formally mentor you? DP 09:04, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

DP, I appreciate your guidance and patience while I learn the process, thank you. In my first reading of the University Canada West Wikipedia pg. I thought; what a joke of a university--the pg. essentially paints a bad image of a university. In my research I have spoken directly with the Consulate General of Indian , Ministry of Advanced Education, and several other reliable government sources. My conclusion is this; the Wikipedia page is Bogus, and I believe an editor or group of editors intentionally or unintentionally are not abiding the WP:FOC and WP:BATTLE.

My truth is (based on the above mentioned from "talks" 34 to 40) is University Canada West was founded by an extremely credible Canadian educator Dr. David F. StrongNRC Research Press,University of Victoria. Why doesn't the University Canada West page recognize David Strong (UCW Founding President) as a PHD, speak to his background, education, integrity etc? As Dbrodbeck stated:

I'm sorry, I don't understand what needs clarifying, It is a for profit school, that is a rare thing in BC, and in Canada generally, which makes it notable. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:39, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Dbrodbeck I agree with you University Canada West is extremely rare! How did this happen? Where is the history on a rare event in Canadian post-secondary education?

Please don't EVER mess with another editor's comments. I have removed the bolding you did to my comment. The 'it' that is rare is that it is a for profit school so that should be noted. Dbrodbeck (talk) 17:09, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

University Canada West (UCW) is a private educational institution in British Columbia, Canada. University Canada West was established by David Strong, a former president of University of Victoria, as Canada's first for-profit univeristy. Dr. Arthur Coren is currently the president of the university. Founded in 2005, it was purchased in 2008 by the Eminata Group, which is based in Vancouver. Eminata is chaired by Peter Chung, a man convicted in 1993 in California for defrauding students at a computer school he ran..

To clarify, the above could not be viewed as an example of undue journalism?

In reviewing University Canada West's "Academic Calendar the official guide to all programs, courses and services available at University Canada West. It also serves as a record of UCW policies and procedures." I found the Wikipedia claims to be absolutely false, inaccurate, and again undue.

Is the University Canada West Wikipedia article undue? I need clarification on this individual Dr. Peter Chung; the guy allegedly convicted in California over 21 years ago. To clarify; if we are going to mention Dr. Peter Chung then should we not discuss the following in order to ensure we have an equal proportion of due and undue content?: Peter Chung, Peter Chung article 2, Peter Chung? or is this not noteworthy because it's not a part of what I'm calling "the University Canada West Smear Campaign?"

It is my opinion, Wikipedia is one of the most referenced sources in the world. I believe the information referenced on its pages should be accurate and tell the complete story the good, the bad, and the ugly; the truth.

Is there a governing body who regulates the "over-arching themes" the Wikipedia categories naturally create to ensure all pages are equally allowed to promote their accurate due and undue weight to form consistency in the age of information.

Here is an example of an inconsistency: Vancouver Island University Wikipedia page, it is BC university recognized by the same Ministry of Advanced Education the same governing body who recognizes University Canada West but, does not have a Controversy and Criticisms section? Although, I was able to reference the following:

VIU Strike,18, 000 VIU students.

My goal is to learn Wikipedia and help solve a misrepresentation. I will continue to research with the support of the BC Ministry of Advanced Education the University Canada West Wikipedia page to clarify bias,undue weight.

23.16.212.151 (talk) 14:28, 2 April 2014 (UTC) Goburst (talk) 14:30, 2 April 2014 (UTC) Sorry keep forgetting to sign;) Please review WP:FOC and WP:BATTLE. --Ronz (talk) 15:12, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

please clarify how I have not interacted with others civilly, calmly, and in a spirit of cooperation. how have I insulted, harassed, or intimidated those with whom I disagree? 23.16.212.151 (talk) 15:36, 2 April 2014 (UTC)Goburst (talk) 15:39, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:FOC I agree 100% with the document and will adjust where needed. Goburst (talk) 15:44, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I have updated my comments in accordance with the WP:FOC and WP:BATTLE. Respectfully, Goburst (talk) 16:44, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Please take some time to learn Wikipedia. You removed others' comments [1] after being notified not to touch others' comments. Removing editors comments in this way is highly inappropriate. See WP:TALK.

You might find Wikipedia:Introduction and Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Adventure helpful. --Ronz (talk) 18:07, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Got it, I will review, thanks! --Goburst (talk) 18:37, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

References

2nd Motion to update

"University Canada West was established by David Strong, a former president of University of Victoria."

• Is this a detailed description of University Canada West's founding present and Vice Chancellor Dr. David F. Strong?
• Is it important to educate the reader on the founder of University Canada West? Should the reader be educated on his credentials etc.?

University Canada West founder David F. Strong references:

Dr. David F. Strong reference 1 Dr. David F. Strong reference 2 [of Victoria overview]

Onwards & Upwards, Goburst (talk) 03:05, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Are there no thoughts on this? --Goburst (talk) 02:46, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Association of Collegiate Business Schools and Programs ACBSP)

The University Canada West MBA is not accredited by any of the three biggest business school accreditation bodies. The three major accrediting bodies in there are the Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business (AACSB), which accredits research universities, the Association of Collegiate Business Schools and Programs (ACBSP), which accredits universities and colleges, and the International Assembly for Collegiate Business Education (IACBE),all of which also accredit schools outside the US.

The above mentioned is not correct please review the links:

ACBSP University Canada West

UCW ACBSP

University Canada West has been approved to enter Candidacy for Accreditation with the Accreditation Council for Business Schools and Programs (ACBSP). University Canada West will be awarded a Certificate of Candidacy for Accreditation at an Accreditation Banquet held June 23, 2013 during the 2013 ACBSP Annual Conference in Salt Lake City, Utah

The following is not relevant; this is not an article on the three major accrediting bodies--Goburst (talk) 04:25, 3 April 2014 (UTC): The three major accrediting bodies in there are the Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business (AACSB), which accredits research universities, the Association of Collegiate Business Schools and Programs (ACBSP), which accredits universities and colleges, and the International Assembly for Collegiate Business Education (IACBE :do we have a consensus on the above mentioned?--Goburst (talk) 18:44, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

--Goburst (talk) 02:40, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

We've lengthy discussions above on accreditation in Canada.

So their status changed in 2013? What does "candidacy" mean in this context? --Ronz (talk) 05:45, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

I've reviewed and will help provide clarity--Goburst (talk) 18:44, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

The following publication references the status change in 2013; University Canada West officially recognized as Candidate for acbsp accreditation. Here is information on acbsp member candidacy. --Goburst (talk) 06:58, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

"ACBSP Members with candidacy status are working toward accreditation, but are not yet accredited." I interpret that to mean they are not accredited. Adding any mention of this would require an explanation and clearly identify that they are not accredited by ACBSP yet. --Ronz (talk) 16:04, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

How does this sound? University Canada West has been officially recognized as a candidate for accreditation with theAccreditation Council for Business Schools & Programs (ACBSP). To receive accreditation, University Canada West is required to submit a self-study report, participate in a site visit of their peers, and be approved for accreditation by the Associate Degree Board of Commissioners or Baccalaureate/Graduate Degree Board of Commissioners. --Goburst (talk) 18:44, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

The concerns are:

1. Do we mention this at all?

You are suggesting the first for-profit university in Canada's 147 year old history becoming recognized as a candidate with the Accreditation Council for Business Schools & Programs (ACBSP) is not noteworthy?--Goburst (talk) 20:15, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

1. If so, why and with what sources?

You are suggesting University Canada West officially recognized as Candidate for acbsp accreditation and acbsp member candidacy would not be considered sources? please explain using referenced material, discrediting the above mentioned sources--Goburst (talk) 20:15, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

1. In what context should the information be added?

In the same context the original author intended; to inform the reader of University Canada West's standing with the three biggest business school accreditation bodies. You are suggesting not to inform the reader University Canada West is now recognized and has officially received ACBSP candidacy University Canada West officially recognized as Candidate for acbsp accreditation acbsp member candidacybut, it's relevant to mention ACBSP and the other two business school accrediting bodies when University Canada West did not have accreditation or candidacy? Is what you are suggesting not classified as undue.--Goburst (talk) 20:15, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

With only the sources provided, I'm not sure it should be mentioned at all, because they are primary sources that don't establish that the information is noteworthy. In review of the original sources used to generate the content we are referring to I found the sources to also be primary sources. --Goburst (talk) 20:15, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

If it is indeed noteworthy, it seems only so in that it has taken them so long to get to this point.

Please provide references as to the average time it takes a Canadian Post-Secondary institution to receive one of these 3 business accreditations.--Goburst (talk) 20:15, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

I've given a try at adding it in a way that might not be undue: [2] --Ronz (talk) 19:09, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

I see where your going I'm going to jump in edit further, let me know your opinion.--Goburst (talk) 20:15, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Entrance requirements & Program Overview(s)

Entrance requirements & Program Overview(s) are too vague and the information is outdated in the University Canada West Wikipedia page. According to the Degree Authorization Act (DAA) bclaws.ca and the Degree Quality Assessment Board gov.bc appointed by the Minister of Advanced Education, Honourable Amrik Virk; a "University" must complete an annual review; a requirement in the review; submit all yearly program updates; each year a universities program(s) must evolve to keep the program academically sound. My suggestion; we update university canada west program and entrance overiew and requirements by referencing University Canada West's Ministry of Advanced Education reviewed Academic Calendar to ensure accuracy and government compliance University Canada West Academic Calendar.--Goburst (talk) 04:25, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

What is the consensus on updating the following:

UCW offers Bachelor of Commerce, Bachelor of Arts and MBA degrees. University Canada West offers entrance requirements for students with a GPA of 65% or higher, and can accept credit for previous studies and work experience in the Degree Completion and MBA programs.(In comparison, major BC universities' GPA requirements are: low 80s and higher for UBC Vancouver and mid-70s for UBC Okanagan, 70%–80% for UVic, and 80–90% for SFU.)This is irrelevant; this is not a page on comparing entrance requirments --Goburst (talk) 04:25, 3 April 2014 (UTC). The academic year was originally organized into four ten-week terms, but changed to five eight-week terms in September 2009. Students are able to complete four courses of 40 contact hours each in a term. Degree Completion and MBA programs can be completed on campus or online. University Canada West is listed in the British Columbia Credit Transfer system. When the Victoria campus went out of business in 2011, students reported that UCW credits would be not be transferred or transferred on a case by case basis. This was controversial because allegedly students were told when they paid for classes that credits were transferable even though the BC transfer website says they are not. This is not applicable; as per the Ministry of Advanced Education; the university Canada West located at 950 Kings Rd Victoria, BC V8T 1W6 and the university Canada west currently located at 1111 Melville St Vancouver, BC are officialy recognized as two institutions, not one. This is not a wikipedia page about university Canada West located at 950 Kings Rd Victoria, BC V8T 1W6. --Goburst (talk) 04:25, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Undergraduate

• Bachelor of Commerce, General Studies (BCom)
• Bachelor of Arts Media and Communications (B.A.)

The university follows a system of five terms in a year, by which students can finish their degree in as little as two years.

The UCW Academic Calendar notes: there are four terms; January, April, June, September. --Goburst (talk) 04:25, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Graduate

• Master of Business Administration (MBA)

Thoughts --Goburst (talk) 04:25, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what is and is not worth noting. We should, of course, remove outdated information that is not relevant for historical or other reasons.

The comparison with other institutions is original research to further a point of view, and should be removed.

I'll look at it further when I have more time if someone doesn't take care of it first. --Ronz (talk) 05:51, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good, I'll draft a proposed program/requirement section then post on "Talk" for review.--Goburst (talk) 07:09, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

I believe the below edit will suffice, it removes all ability to promote unique attributes and keeps the information general and specific to UCW programs:--Goburst (talk) 22:16, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

History

In researching other BC Post-Secondary universities a "History" section reviews the universities establishment for the reader. Here are a few for reference; University_of_British_Columbia, University_Of_Victoria, Vancouver_Island_University etc.--Goburst (talk) 00:31, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

2004 University Canada West (UCW) was established under the Degree Authorization Act as an independent university in Victoria, B.C. The provincial Ministry of Advanced Education provided written consent authorizing Bachelor of Arts (Media and Communications), Bachelor of Commerce, and Masters of Business Administration degree programs.

2008 UCW's first graduates received degrees. UCW's first Honorary Doctorate awarded. LearningWise Incorporated (LINC), dba University Canada West, became part of The Eminata Group of post-secondary education institutions.

2009 New members formed the senior management team. Process re-engineering was initiated and investments were made across the academic and service areas of the University.

2010 All on-line and campus activities centralized in Vancouver. Self-studies and external reviews of all programs completed. The University's second President and Vice Chancellor, Dr. Verna Magee-Shepherd, was installed, succeeding Dr. David Strong, the University's Founder and first President. With the conclusion of Dr. Myer Horowitz's term as Founding Chancellor, the University's second Chancellor, Mr. John Winter, was installed. Education Quality Assurance (EQA) designation conferred.

2011 International student population expansion representing over 30 different countries. EQA designation renewed.

2012 The University’s third President and Vice Chancellor, Dr. Arthur Coren was installed, succeeding Dr. Verna Magee-Shepherd.

I'm going to go ahead and insert this into the article, let me know if we need to adjust or add to.--Goburst (talk) 00:31, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Ronz you around???--Goburst (talk) 00:43, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

A history section needs to be written from independent sources. Otherwise it's just a venue for self-promotion. --Ronz (talk) 00:48, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Got it, thanks--Goburst (talk) 01:18, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Tuition

I believed it necessary to remove the Tuition section. UCW fees and Tuition have been lowered giving UCW an opportunity to potentially use Wikipedia as an advertisement by putting the new tuition/fees in the page --Goburst (talk) 23:11, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

I've restored it. Removing sourced information can be very problematic, especially when there are no sources to support the rationale for their removal.

It should be placed in a historical context and trimmed. --Ronz (talk) 00:47, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Got it--Goburst (talk) 01:11, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

I added the tuition fees to create clarity for the reader and a reference point. I removed the comparison between UVIC and UBC; this is not a page comparing default rates and I cleaned up the overall sentence structure.--Goburst (talk) 03:24, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

The default rates aren't sitting well with me. How is this relevant to the page? In researching Student aid BC; default rates are based on the number of students who actually take out a loan. So if school A) has 60,000 students and a default rate of 3% (like the university of BC) that means 1800 students defaulted. Now, if school B) Has between 300-600 students with a default rate of 30% (like UCW) that means 135 students defaulted. Lastly, if I have a school with 2 students and one takes a student loan and defaults I have a 50% default rate.--Goburst (talk) 04:11, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Fees (prices, etc) are inappropriate per WP:NOPRICES (and WP:NPOV):

An article should not include product pricing or availability information unless there is a source and a justified reason for the mention. Encyclopedic significance may be indicated if mainstream media sources (not just product reviews) provide commentary on these details instead of just passing mention. Prices and product availability can vary widely from place to place and over time. Wikipedia is not a price comparison service to compare the prices of competing products, or the prices and availability of a single product from different vendors or retailers.

As I pointed out, it should be placed in a historical context and trimmed. --Ronz (talk) 15:24, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Spelling & Grammar Edits

Goburst (talk) 18:00, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

There is spelling and grammar issues:

University Canada West (UCW) is a private educational institution in British Columbia, Canada. University Canada West was established by David Strong, a former president of University of Victoria, as Canada's first for-profit univeristy. Dr. Arthur Coren is currently the president of the university. Founded in 2005, it was purchased in 2008 by the Eminata Group, which is based in Vancouver.

To:

University Canada West (UCW) is a private educational institution in British Columbia, Canada. University Canada West was established by Dr. David F. Strong, a former president of the University of Victoria, as Canada's first for-profit univeristy. University Canada West officially installed its new President and Vice Chancellor, Dr. Arthur Coren at its Fall Convocation on November 17, 2012. Founded in 2005, it was purchased in 2008 by the Eminata Group, which is based in Vancouver,British Columbia.

Thoughts --Goburst (talk) 19:58, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Titles such as Dr. are not usually used in articles in this manner per WP:HONORIFIC. --Ronz (talk) 05:39, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't see how the WP:HONORIFIC exempts the usage of DR. or corrects the grammar and word flow of the section in reference? I referenced the following BC Canadian universities; Titles such as Dr. are regularly used:

University of British Columbia Simon Fraser University Vancouver Island University University of Victoria --Goburst (talk) 06:45, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

In addition to the above mentioned I have gone ahead and made the above Minor edit--Goburst (talk) 19:27, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Further to the above mentioned point and references; According to the Degree Authorization Act (DAA) bclaws.ca and the Degree Quality Assessment Board gov.bc appointed by the Minister of Advanced Education, Honourable Amrik Virk; a Canadian "University" can only be operated by a president & vice-chancellor who has achieved a recognized Doctoratedegree. --Goburst (talk) 19:38, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Honorifics

Ronz can we discuss the use of Dr. I believe the above mentioned validates/warrants its use?--Goburst (talk) 01:16, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

I rarely encounter WP:HONORIFIC discussions, and the guidelines are focused on articles that discuss persons in some details, so let's see if we can get some help.

To clarify for others, we're discussing these titles for two people who don't have their own Wikipedia articles and are only mentioned because of their positions/relationships with UCW.

Do we include "Dr." at all, once for each, as the diff suggests, or in some other manner? --Ronz (talk) 15:35, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on University Canada West and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes.

In the case of academic titles, including Dr., the relevant guideline is not WP:HONORIFIC but WP:CREDENTIAL, which states that the credential should be omitted. This is independent of what any external references give, since it is a matter of Wikipedia's own internal style guide. Kind regards, Stfg (talk) 16:09, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the help! --Ronz (talk) 16:13, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Programs

Undergraduate

Bachelor of Arts (BA), Media and Communications

Concentrations:

• Public Relations
• Communications Management

Bachelor of Commerce (BComm), General Studies

Concentrations:

• Accounting
• Public Relations
• Business Communications

Graduate

Master of Business Administration (MBA)

There's probably a standard for this. WP:UNI would be the place to look, otherwise in good and featured articles. --Ronz (talk) 00:40, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't see anything on WP:UNI--Goburst (talk) 01:08, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't see this as a high-priority concern, and it looks like it will take a great deal of digging to figure out. --Ronz (talk) 18:19, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Authorization 2014

I'm very concerned with changing the authorization section in any way that changes the pov. Information sourced only with primary sources is especially difficult to present in a neutral manner when the only sources are not independent of the subject matter. --Ronz (talk) 15:47, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

As a side note, links that are not references do not belong in the article body, such as [3]. We don't hyperlink to external websites in this way. --Ronz (talk) 16:04, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

I understand--Goburst (talk) 17:13, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Concerning:

University Canada West is listed on the BC Transfer Guide .

Why is this worth mentioning and what does it have to do with authorization? --Ronz (talk) 16:10, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

The BC transfer guide was originally in the tuition section please look at the history. If you must lets remove it simply because I just don't care to get into semantics. --Goburst (talk) 17:13, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Another aside: When moving content from one area of an article to another, it is best not to do any other editing. Otherwise it is very hard for other editors to see what you've done. --Ronz (talk) 16:17, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to improve here but I need you further clarify, I don't fully understand.--Goburst (talk) 17:13, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Edits like this make it extremely difficult to determine what was actually changed versus what was just moved from one location to another. Wikipedia's WP:DIFF system and tools don't identify when content is moved very well.

In contrast this edit moves content without any other changes. It still take some examination to figure out, but it's not nearly so difficult.

Does that make a bit more sense? --Ronz (talk) 18:38, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Looking over this talk page and the CICIC information, I'm not sure why we're mentioning it at all. --Ronz (talk) 16:29, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Ronz the article can't be undue if we want to talk about the AUCC a non-governmental, not-for-profit membership organization who directly impacts the view of the international community at large then we need to talk about the CICIC a unit of the Council of Ministers of Education, Canada (CMEC), an intergovernmental body who collects and shares information related to the recognition and portability of academic and occupational qualifications. This article cannot be undue. If you would like lets remove them both or keep them both.--Goburst (talk) 17:13, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

But it's just redundant with the information we already have, as far as authorization is concerned, correct? Am I missing something? --Ronz (talk) 18:31, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

In the authorization section; paragraphs need to be put together in a logical order. The BC Ministry of Advanced Education, and the AUCC are both authorities on the University at large. But, then we jump into the MBA and a program specific authority only to then jump into the CICIC another authority on the University at large; this is choppy and out of sequence.--Goburst (talk) 17:13, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Good point. I've moved it while we discuss it further. I moved the MBA info to the bottom of the section. --Ronz (talk) 18:46, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Also, our transitions are riddled with; that, and, because. . . This is not academically sound; transition sentences (and words) are necessary for making connections between the claims, views, and statements we make. For example:

Canada has no national Educational accreditation system. The should change to Therefore British Columbia Ministry of Advanced Education, oversees University Canada West.--Goburst (talk) 17:13, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the article needs a great deal of polishing, but "therefore" implies a relationship that's not clear. --Ronz (talk) 18:49, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

The University Canada West MBA is not accredited by the three largest business school accreditation bodies. The three major accrediting bodies are the Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business (AACSB), which accredits research universities, the Association of Collegiate Business Schools and Programs (ACBSP), which accredits universities and colleges, and the International Assembly for Collegiate Business Education (IACBE), all of which also accredit schools outside the US. University Canada West is working towards accreditation through ACBSP.

In the above sentence; The three major accrediting bodies are the is not grammatically correct or an academically sound transition. A simple (;) and then the governing bodies ties the article together removing the filler and allowing the page to flow.--Goburst (talk) 17:13, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

I have put back "University Canada West is listed on the B.C. transfer guide." This was originally in the tuition section and belongs in the authorization section; again transition issues.--Goburst (talk) 17:13, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Postsecondary should read post-secondary.--Goburst (talk) 17:13, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

The following are my "minor" edits and changes:

Canada has no national Educational accreditation system. Therefore British Columbia Ministry of Advanced Education, oversees University Canada West.

In addition to fulfilling the provincial charter, a university's membership with the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada (AUCC) can be considered the de facto accreditation for Canadian universities, but University Canada West is a private for-profit university; and does not qualify for AUCC membership.

The Canadian Information Centre for International Credentials (CICIC), a unit of the Council of Ministers of Education of Canada (CMEC), identifies University Canada West on their "list of recognized and authorized post-secondary institutions". The CICIC regards itself as “the only authoritative list of all post-secondary institutions (including the AUCC and ACCC) in one web site recognized by the competent jurisdictional authorities.”

The University Canada West MBA is not accredited by any of the three biggest business school accreditation bodies;Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business (AACSB), which accredits research universities, the Association of Collegiate Business Schools and Programs (ACBSP), which accredits universities and colleges, and the International Assembly for Collegiate Business Education (IACBE), all of which also accredit schools outside the US. University Canada West is working towards accreditation through ACBSP.

University Canada West has been approved by the British Columbia Education Quality Assurance program as well as the Degree Quality Assessment Board of British Columbia. University Canada West is listed on the B.C. transfer guide.

--Goburst (talk) 17:13, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Could you please summarise your point in a sentence or two. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:26, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes please. Dbrodbeck (talk) 03:35, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

References

Help build a consensus around University Canada West Wikipedia

Currently we have two editors working this page; this doesn't define Consensus decision-making. If any other editors could please weigh in on the above content. Please help us to reform this page, --Goburst (talk) 18:24, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Please suggest edits, and suggest them one at a time, and we can go from there. We have more than one editor here. But, you have presented a great deal of stuff, please move more slowly. Dbrodbeck (talk) 03:36, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Tuition

Tuition for a full undergraduate degree program at UCAN is higher than similar programs at public universities due to the fact that it is not publicly subsidized. According to the Student Aid BC website, 30 per cent of UCW students defaulted on their government-backed loans in 2009. That compares with a default rate of 3.7% at the University of British Columbia and 4.7% at the University of Victoria.

What is the consensus on the above mentioned; it this relevant? --216.13.170.66 (talk) 19:59, 7 April 2014 (UTC) --Goburst (talk) 20:00, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

The source shows it is relevant. --Ronz (talk) 20:55, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

References

Accreditation

I've added "unaccredited" to the lead, there is no sign of accreditation for this school, and no university in Canada accepts transfer credits from this school. The school's webpage says they are accredited, because they have permission from the province to call themselves a "university", but this is not at all the same thing as accreditation. For example New Brunswick, at least at one time, had no regulations at all about what sort of institution could call itself a university. But there are still accredited institutions in New Brunswick; governments are not in charge of accreditation. Hairhorn (talk) 19:40, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. I'm trying to make sense of accreditation in Canada. Looks like there is a professional accreditation system, but no national university accreditation system (See http://www.schoolsincanada.com/University-Accreditation-In-Canada.cfm). --Ronz (talk) 20:04, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Educational accreditation#Canada states, "membership in the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada along with the provincial charter is considered de facto accreditation." The reference there has more information. --Ronz (talk) 20:12, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

It's certainly not a simple issue. Editors need to be careful that they're not doing original research. I'd guess that this issue has been addressed in articles on other Canadian universities. --Ronz (talk) 20:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

The more that I read, the more I'm concerned that this is original research. --Ronz (talk) 20:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

There are universities that accept transfer credits from University Canada West, but the relationships are all bilateral in Canada and some do and some don't. My wife couldn't use her credits from the University of Western Australia when she transferred to UBC this year, does that mean UWA is unacreditted? They're good enough for DQAB, and that's good enough for me. To be honest, Canada could use a better system for transferring credits as the current system is a patchwork of credit transfer agreements. Ingoman (talk) 23:54, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

The references states no university in Canada accepts transfer from this diploma mill. Wikipedia is not an advertising source for private for profit career colleges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.138.205 (talk) 00:30, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

BTW- what makes this more laughable is that the refrence states you can transfer in credits (that would be good for their for profit business model) but outside schools will not allow credits from this school to be applied to them.

Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, and thus a neutral point of view must be maintained. This means advertising AND pushing an agenda are to be avoided. Without articulation agreements you can still transfer from provincially approved programs on a case by case basis. That sucks if your case by case basis is "no", but I'm tired of the overzealous on both sides here. Ingoman (talk) 00:45, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

You are clearly an employee. YOU CANNOT TRANSFER TO ANY OTHER SCHOOL FROM HERE - THE REFERENCE STATES THIS. There is no case by case basis. It is not accredited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.138.205 (talk) 01:13, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Anf you should stop making unfounded/unproven accusations and refrain from YELLING at other people. Seb az86556 (talk) 14:12, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm tired of you people in my Wikipedia, you give the encyclopaedia a bad name. If you want to turn my copyedit and fact checking into an edit war that's fine. Ingoman (talk) 01:44, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I've restored the NPOV tag and added an WP:OR tag as well. I suggest getting help at WP:NPOVN. If this edit-warring continues, you could be both be blocked per WP:3RR. --Ronz (talk) 02:12, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to add to this discussion that I registered for courses at UBC, which requires you to submit your "post-secondary degree" to allow registration. They DID accept the UCW transcripts. I hope this clarifies that UCW credentials are trusted by one of Canada's most recognized universities. And just in case you think this post is a "scam" I'd seriously ask you to (a) look up the definition of "scam" and (b) contact UBC for verification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.6.161.134 (talk) 00:55, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Archives

This talk page has grown large, making it slow and unwieldy to load. General talk page guidelines suggest setting up archiving when a page “exceeds 75 kb or has more than 10 main topics”; this page is now about 190 kb and has 50 main topics. Would there be any objection to setting up automatic archiving here, so that some of the older and inactive discussion topics can migrate to the archives?  Unician ∇  07:00, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Seeing no objections, I've added parameters for talk-page archiving.  Unician ∇  11:14, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Reception Section

While the content in the first two paragraphs of the Reception section can be interesting to those involved in education policy, it is hardly arguable that the opinions expressed in an internal newsletter circulated among university teachers more than 10 years ago (see reference number 21) are still relevant. The CAUT newsletter is not the same as a newspaper or news website and therefore should not be listed as an impartial, independent source for Wikipedia – especially because the cited newsletter is over ten years old.

The same principle applies to the second and third paragraphs of the above section. The opinions stated over 10 years ago in a newsletter written by and for members of a teachers association should not be used as an independent and impartial source. While the headline “Reception” naturally denotes the general public’s views on a certain matter, the remarks presented in those paragraphs reflect the opinion of only two individuals who are associated with organisations that have their own interests - and therefore not those of the general public. Again – references number 21 and 24 (the only ones used in those paragraphs) link to the same single article, the one on the CAUT bulletin, which, as stated above before, cannot be considered "press".

Given that reference number 22 is no longer available and reference 24 is the same as 21, it is unfair to say that “there is continuing controversy regarding the business aspect the school” (by whom, where, when?), by only citing as reference an article from 2011. UliVileella (talk) 18:42, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. You may want to start editing on some article that hasn't a long history of WP:COI and WP:NPOV problems, as they call for a great deal of expertise to address properly.

That said, CAUT might possibly be given undue weight, but it's complete removal is inappropriate.

Likewise, the removal of sources that are no longer accessible is inappropriate.

Finally, we need to be sure we don't change the article based upon arguments of WP:RECENTISM. --Ronz (talk) 18:29, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

It is unlikely that those paragraphs in the Reception section are aligned to Wikipedia’s WP:NPOV guidelines. Are those third party opinions so relevant that should take such a large proportion of this article? If so, then it wouldn’t be appropriate to feature these comments unless we have other positive/neutral points of views to counter balance the negatives. I’m yet to see articles about other organizations where the views of competitors are so prominently featured. Mezzenga (talk) 12:20, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

We don't do 'fair and balanced' here, that is not how NPOV works. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:42, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

So what is the point of having a guideline to ensure a neutral point of view? There is a lot of debate going on about UCW and the future of education in BC - and indeed my latest edit reflects this very fairly, none of the actual facts were removed from the article. It is just surprising that experienced users support the use of third party's opinion on an article that should really stand by the facts, especially when the opinions being featured are not fully impartial and were published a considerable time ago (bear in mind that some of them are not even available online anymore). Mezzenga (talk) 13:04, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Availability online is not that important, verifiability is. NPOV does NOT mean fair and balanced it means we present what the sources say. Per BRD I am reverting this back, you have no consensus for the change. Thank you. Dbrodbeck (talk) 13:19, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I suspect there may be a conflict of interest between the source (CAUT internal newsletter) and the University as in WP:QS. Should this really be considered a reliable source and, if so, should its comments be featured so prominently?Mezzenga (talk) 13:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't see a COI, CAUT is a large national organization of university profs, but let's see what others think, I am sure there are other page watchers here. Dbrodbeck (talk) 13:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

As there has been no feedback from other page watchers in the past month, I would like to propose a revised version for the Reception section. I’m just not so sure about the WP:UNDUE given to the opinions featured in the CAUT newsletter - while I understand this brings a valid debate to the article, I can see that it can lead to confusion. Here’s what I suggest (all the sources have been kept). The idea was to put the text in a more coherently format. Let me know if you have any objections:

"Given that UCW was the first private, for-profit university in Canada, there is continuing debate regarding the governance it would have to adhere to and about the future of the higher education system in Canada and British Columbia. Established in 2005, the university was sold by David Strong to the Eminata Group, who owns small colleges in Vancouver only three years later. At the time, it was reported that the university was losing $300,000 per month . In 2011 UCW closed its Victoria campus and informed students that they could continue their studies online or transfer to the Vancouver campus . At the time, some students stated that they found it difficult to get their credits transferred to other institutions. Some students were also unhappy that the university's announcement closing the Victoria campus came immediately after the final day for dropping classes without financial penalty. In 2004, prior to its founding, UCW was criticized by the Canadian Association of Teachers (CAUT), by the Confederation of University Faculty Associations of British Columbia (CUFA/BC) and by the Federation of Post-Secondary Educators of British Columbia, who raised questions about UCW’s academic quality, transparency, and its cost. They also criticised the government’s emphasis on expanding the private sector universities, rather than committing to investing in high-quality, affordable post-secondary education.In March 2012, it was reported that some dissatisfied students from UCW expressed "disappointment" with their experience at the university to BC Opposition leader Adrian Dix, who in turn called for a closer look at the regulatory bodies responsible for monitoring B.C.’s for-profit schools In October 2012, "over 30 students, graduates, faculty and former teachers and employees interviewed by Hindustan Times have alleged that it is a university only in name, and that many of them were duped" – allegations vehemently denied by the university. "-- Mezzenga (talk) 12:44, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

References

As there has been no feedback on the above, can I assume that no one has objections to the proposed version? Again, all references have been kept and the content is pretty much the same (all the allegations have been kept as well). The idea was to make the text a little bit more factual and take away some of the WP:UNDUE given to the CAUT news bulletin, as argued previously. I'll make the changes as suggested above. If anyone has any objection, let me know -- Mezzenga (talk) 11:09, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

POV in context of recent Arbcom

Given Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Wifione, let's be sure not to make the same mistakes here. I'm not saying anyone here has an actionable COI (though I encourage everyone to look at WP:COI given the changes to it over the past year or so). There are many parallels, especially the original research.

I've tagged the article. Given how little we have from independent sources on the topic, I'm not seeing any easy solutions. --Ronz (talk) 15:39, 15 April 2015 (UTC)