Talk:Turkish–Georgian war

Nomination for Deletion

I nominated this article for deletion as it's pretty much the same thing as Caucasus campaign. Pinging @Cutoc who deleted it once before and @User:لهثسن who resurrected it. Annwfwn (talk) 22:49, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Annwfwn: Looks like a legitimate subtopic to me, akin to Turkish–Armenian War. It certainly cannot be considered a content fork of the Caucasus campaign article, which is emphatically not about a Turkish–Georgian war. If it is a fork of anything, it is German Caucasus expedition. Srnec (talk) 01:35, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

It is the same thing as Caucasus campaign. First of all, Georgia only declared its independence on 26 May, 1918, so technically this article is incorrect because if it describes events since 9 March 1918 (as it claims according to infobox), it should not be called Turkish-Georgian war since Georgia was part of Transcaucasian Federation at that time, so technically it should be called Turkish-Transcaucasian war. I don't think events between Georgia and Turkey between 26 May and 7 June bear particular importance to describe them as a separate Turkish-Georgian War. Moreover, are there any reliable source describing the events as such? I don't think so. Appereantly there was no particular and separate Turkish-Georgian War but Turkish campaign against entire Transcaucasia, for example, Battle of Sardarapat (May 21–29), the Battle of Kara Killisse (1918) (May 24–28), and the Battle of Bash Abaran (May 21–24) took place between Armenia and Ottomans during this same period, so all of these are part of one military campaign of Turkey against Transcaucasia (which started in February 1918, I think it is inaccurately chosen March in infobox, the article appereantly meant to describe events since February 1918 because military operations were already started by Ottomans in February 1918, before that there was Armistice of Erzincan in force which was signed in December 1917 and ended hostilities between Ottoman Empire and Russian Empire which lasted from 1914 to 1917). Additionally, war ended with Treaty in Batumi on 4 June (implemented by 7 June), which was signed by Turkey and all three Transcaucasian states.

So, I think there are two options: redirect the article to Turkish-Transcaucasian war (starting from February 1918 when Armistice of Erzincan ended and Ottomans launched offensive against newly-declared Transcaucasian Commissariat (later reconstituted as Transcaucasian Federation) until 7 June 1918 when 3 Transcaucasian states (which emerged from Transcaucasian Federation) signed peace treaty with Ottomans) or we can delete it and the events will be described in Caucasus Campaign page. -- Cutoc (talk) 03:50, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I would concider the first option (renaming it to the Turkish-Transcaucasian war) since the page has nothing to do with the Caucasus campaign لهثسن (talk) 07:43, 28 October 2023 (UTC) Strike per WP:GS/AA. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:25, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't see that this is akin to the Turkish–Armenian War (24 September – 2 December 1920). The scope of the German Caucasus expedition is 8 June – October 1918, while this article is 9 March 1918 – 7 June 1918. The narrative of this article gives me cause for concern of a possible copy vio. It is poorly sourced and the anachronisms strike me as a nationalistic revisionist history. I can't see the newspaper sources. They come up with a loading error. The events are part of the Caucasus campaign and potentially, the German Caucasus expedition could be rescoped and retitled (eg Turkish-Transcaucasian war) to include events from Russia's withdrawal from WWI until the end of WWI. However, I am not convinced that merging in either way is a good option. The article was created by an editor that is now blocked. The article is also covered by Wikipedia:General sanctions/Armenia and Azerbaijan. The creating editor is/was not ECP. This alone is grounds for deletion. If somebody thinks there is something salvageable (and verifiable) to merge, it could be moved to draft space (or similar), with appropriate notes about its provenance, and deleted in due course. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:19, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you all for the wonderful discussion. I do own a copy of Rayfield's Edges of Empires, which is cited by the article. I'm not going to write it out in its entirety because the section on the Caucausus campaign is 7 pages long, but the short recap is that he discusses the Turkish invasion, the ongoing rebellions that hindered Georgia at that time, the German Caucasus Expedition, as well as the British stepping in after German capitulation ending with the Armistice of Mudros. From Rayfield I get a much different impression of events, namely that the newly forming Georgian state did not have much of a defense against the Ottomans, hence the invitation was extended to the Germans to launch their expedition.
Two areas specifically that concern me regarding accuracy of this article: looking specifically at April 8th, Rayfield writes on page 326:

On 8 April the Turks invaded: Akakai Chkhenkeli authorized resistance, but Georgia had no forces capable of stopping the Turks taking Batumi a week later.

This differs from the article which talks about a full battle ending in Transcaucasian Commissariat victory. Now Rayfield tends to focus more on the politics than the combat, so if I overlook this, the next concerning area I have is the aftermath section. Rayfield directly contradicts the article, stating on page 330

There is no doubt that, by stiffening the administration and forming a regular army, in autumn 1918 the German military mission saved Georgia from internal chaos and from Turkish invasion and Armenian encroachments. But after losing Baku to the British, the Ottoman empire imploded in October and Bulgaria could no longer fight. ... Thanks to the Treaty of Mudros, on 30 October the Britsh and French forced Turkey to hand back to Georgia much of their Transcaucasian annexations.

Annwfwn (talk) 13:21, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

The Caucasus at the end of WWI is a very confusing place. I have not looked at this article (which is why I didn't touch the PROD tag). But I know that the Ottomans clashed with the Georgians (and Germans!) and that this is not about the Russo-Ottoman conflict that is the main subject of Caucasus campaign. Allen and Muratoff cover these invents in a chapter entitled "Turkish invasion of Transcaucasia, 1918". Srnec (talk) 15:12, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

German Empire did not get involved until late May/early June 1918. The war between Transcaucasia (Transcaucasian Commissariat, later Transcaucasian Federation) and Ottoman Empire started in February 1918, when Armistice of Erzincan was violated and clashes renewed on Caucasus Front of WW1. From December 1917 to February 1918, there was peace, and Russian troops withdrew. Germany did not even recognize sovereignity of Transcaucasian Federation, and I don't think anyone recognized it except Ottomans. Transcaucasia did not have international support until late May 1918. The reason why Transcaucasian Federation dissolved is that its member states (Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan) had different allies (Armenia - Britain, Georgia - Germany, Azerbaijan - Ottomans), due to which they purusued different foreign policy. Georgian National Council asked Germany for help in May 1918, Germany agreed, Georgia therefore declared independence on May 26, Alliance between Germany and Georgia was confirmed by Treaty of Poti on May 28, Germany pressured Ottomans to stop offensive, and as a result, Treaty of Batumi was signed on June 4 which ended war (for some time). But since we already have war between Transcaucasia and Ottomans before the German involvement, it can be described in separate article (Turkish-Transcaucasian war, which thus is not same thing as German Expedition in Caucasus, both are separate things and part of Caucasus campaign). Moreover, German Expedition in Caucasus is far more far-encompassing thing that Turkish-Transcaucasian War, Germany assisted Georgia in Abkhazia against Bolsheviks, Germany also had some presence in Baku (I don't know about this part, but it seems like so from German Expedition in Caucasus page). German Expedition in Caucasus page should expanded to include clashes between Ottomans and German-Georgian forces (Georgia as an independent country) since German arrival in Caucasus since June 8 (This is date when first German mission arrived in Caucasus in Georgian city of Poti) 1918 (I don't think these clashes between German-Georgian and Ottoman forces warrant a separate article), but this article in my opinion should be redirected to Ottoman-Transcaucasian war:

Date: 12 February (Armistice of Erzincan is violated) - 4 June 1918 (Treaty of Batumi is signed between Ottomans and three Transcaucasian states)

Belligerents: Ottoman Empire

Transcaucasia

• Georgia
• Armenia
• Azerbaijan

Diplomatic Support: German Empire (since 28 May 1918)

Result: inconclusive (Ottomans take large part of Georgian and Armenian territory, but they fail to take whole Transcaucasia and agree to recognize independence of Transcaucasian states) -- Cutoc (talk) 17:01, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Per Srnec. This is a totally separate and later conflict not covered at all by Caucasus campaign. That article already redirects to this article which has substantial coverage of the later events. Almost all of the subject article would need to be incorporated in Caucasus campaign. (I would not oppose that, with a redirect, although it would lengthen the campaign article.) And there are two other articles in the same summary redirects in the aftermath section. Would also support a rename and redirect if a more accurate one can be proposed. Donner60 (talk) 20:50, 28 October 2023 (UTC)