Talk:Trouble in Mind (song)

Untitled

From http://www.redhotjazz.com/ChippieHill.html Trouble In Mind Piano accompaniment by Richard M. Jones Trumpet by Louis Armstrong (Richard M. Jones) 2-23-1926 Chicago, Illinois Okeh8312-A Conqueror8937 Perfect19934

From http://www.michaelminn.net/armstrong/index.php?section2 Bertha "Chippie" Hill February 23-24, 1926, Chicago, Illinois

Lonesome, All Alone And Blue (Jones, Richard M.) [master 9509-A] -- OKeh 8339 Trouble In Mind (Jones, Richard M.) [master 9510-A] -- OKeh 8312 A Georgia Man (Jones, Richard M.) [master 9511-A] -- OKeh 8312

Hill, Bertha "Chippie" (Vocal) Armstrong, Louis (Cornet) Jones, Richard M. (Piano)

Cuvtixo (talk) 01:15, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Additional Lyrics

I'm all alone at midnight; Lights are burnin' low. Never had so much trouble In my life before. (2nd time: "With my guitar before.")

My gal done quit me And it sure does grieve my mind. Sometimes I feel like livin'; Sometimes I feel like dyin'.

                        (2nd time: "Sometimes you hear me laughin'
                        But I'm laughin' just to keep from cryin'.)

I'm gonna lay my head On a lonesome railroad line, Let the 2:19 Come pacify my mind.

            2nd time:
                    -------track
                    Come the two-nineteen,
                    I'm gonna jerk it back.

Sorry, those are unattributed, but we're just discussing, right?

Terry J. Carter (talk) 08:30, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Renditions

@Allreet: According to WP:SONGCOVER, other renditions must meet one of two requirements:

• the rendition is discussed by a reliable source on the subject of the song or
• the rendition itself meets the notability requirement at WP:NSONGS

Dinah Washington (#4 R&B in 1952) and Nina Simone (#11 R&B & #92 pop in 1961) are the only versions that reached the charts and are briefly discussed by reliable sources.[1][2] They may meet the first criterion, but not NSONGS (not enough for stand-alone articles). None of the other renditions meets NSONGS and it's not clear which are actually "discussed by a reliable source" beyond a brief mention or listing that only confirms their existence. If they don't meet SONGCOVER, they should be removed from the article.
—Ojorojo (talk) 15:31, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

@Ojorojo: Thanks for the input. I initially cleaned up formatting in the existing list of recordings and then added 10 or so covers to what was already here. As best I can tell, almost none of the recordings fulfill the WP:SONGCOVER guidelines you point to. Dinah Washington, for example, should be removed from the list since this repeats the earlier discussion, which also included versions by LaVizzo, Hill, White, Spivey, Wills, and Simone. Beyond these, there wouldn't be much of a list. The exceptions might be Big Bill Broonzy's and Sister Rosetta Tharpe's covers. Few of the others are likely to get a sentence in any book or magazine beyond a mention of the title. Also, I'd also like to note that as I read it WP:NSONGS seems to apply only to the notability of songs for their own standalone articles; that is, nothing in this section mentions a recording's inclusion in a list. IOW, the notability of these covers rests solely on the notability of the artists themselves. Regarding citations, there's a blanket citation from a previous editor covering all songs in the list based on a search of the title in AllMusic, which of course only proves that the song was covered by these artists (though I'm sure others have been added independent of this sole reference). Finally, I'm pointing out these things for clarification, so that I understand what you think would be the right thing to do. From what I can gather at this point, nearly every song on the list should be removed. Allreet (talk) 18:05, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Correction: Looking more closely, I see that NSONGS applies because it refers to notability guidelines. Those guidelines would support my conclusion that few covers qualify for listing in the "Trouble in Mind" list. The broader implication of that is that few if any covers should be mentioned in any articles in Wikipedia, since covers are very rarely discussed in detail in books, magazines and other publications. Allreet (talk) 19:02, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

@Allreet: SONGCOVER is one of the most misunderstood and/or ignored song guidelines. Basically, it attempts to 1) keep all the various versions of a song in one article (rather than spread around in separate articles) and 2) prevent song articles from becoming a collection of indiscriminate information (imagine what "Yesterday" would look like with 2,200 covers listed). For other renditions to be included either as text in the main body or in a list in a song article, that rendition must either 1) be discussed (not a trivial mention) by a reliable source "on the subject of the song" OR 2) meet the requirements of NSONG (which excludes press releases, album reviews, etc.). Part of the confusion is that although the rendition itself should never have a separate article, by meeting NSONG, it qualifies for inclusion in the "parent" song article; however, a rendition does not have to meet NSONG, if it is discussed "on the subject of the song". This has been discussed several times[3], most recently at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Songs/Archive 17#Simon & Garfunkel. SONGCOVER needs to be rewritten to make it clearer. Meanwhile, I'll attempt to find sources for some of those currently included in the article and we'll see what's left. —Ojorojo (talk) 19:58, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

In searching for sources, I found enough on the background, lyrics, musical structure, etc., to expand the article. So far though, only a few sources actually discuss the other renditions beyond merely acknowledging their existence: Hill, White, Washington, Simone, and possibly Tharpe, Horton, and Hume. It looks like the rest should be removed. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:31, 5 May 2018 (UTC)