Talk:Tropical cyclone scales/Archive 1

Archive 1

Merge?

Unless this can be expanded it should just be merged into tropical cyclone, which probably has all the relevant information already anyway. — jdorje (talk) 17:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Merged out of the article now. Titoxd^{(?!? - help us)} 04:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be merged into the Tropical cyclone scales, since it is a main article from a category of tropical cyclone, which specifically discusses the storm scales such as super typhoon. The article Tropical cyclone only has a brief description of the scales and links to the main scales article. Mtmelendez 13:57, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I think we should merge the catgories into the Hurricane Page as well

Philippines - "Signal number x" categorizations

In this article:

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/nation/view/20080622-144136/Frank-leaves-at-least-229-dead-700-missing

discussing the impact of Typhoon Fengshen (locally, "Frank") on central and northern Philippines on June 21-22, 2008, there is mention of:

"Public storm signal number 3 (100 to 185 kilometer per hour winds) was raised in Metro Manila, Batangas, Laguna, Cavite, Rizal, Bulacan, northern Quezon, southern Aurora, Nueva Ecija, Pampanga, Bataan, Zambales, Tarlac, Pangasinan, Benguet, and La Union.

"Signal number 2 (60 to 100 kilometer per hour winds) was raised in the Mindoro provinces, Lubang sland, Marinduque, the Bondoc Peninsula, Polilio Island, the rest of Aurora, Quirino, Nueva Vizcaya, Ifugao, Mountain Province, and Ilocos Sur.

"Signal number 1 (30 to 60 kilometer per hour winds) was raised in the Calamian Group of Islands, Romblon, Camarines Norte, Isabela, Cagayan, Kalinga, Payao, Abra, and Ilocos Norte."

Is this "Public signal number x" scale specific to the Philippines? I haven't been able to locate a definition of this scale, but I think it should be added to the article when a citation is found. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.76.157.84 (talk) 15:49, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

yes the phillipines does have its own scale which Pagasa uses to warn people off where the Typhoons going to hit. Jason Rees (talk) 12:24, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Tag, you're it

I tagged the Atlantic and Eastern Pacific section as unreferenced since most of it was. I may have used the wrong tag, but it gets the point across. This article can't pass GA unless each paragraph/numerical fact in the section is referenced. Thegreatdr (talk) 21:06, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Haha Nice Title David - In all seriousness though it can not pass GA at the minute anyway as it doesnt cover all of the Scales used in the world Jason Rees (talk) 00:14, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, which one(s) is/are missing? It looked complete to me, otherwise. Thegreatdr (talk) 10:48, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

The scale for the northern Indian Ocean is most notably absent. Potapych (talk) 14:37, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

That will give the editor who submitted the article for GA something to work with. =) Thegreatdr (talk) 16:52, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Positive changes were made regarding the comments, so I won't refute the tag leaving the page. Good job. Thegreatdr (talk) 16:28, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Units

So, what should we do for units in this article? We have sections that have units in different orders and in different formats, with four different velocity units (m/s, kn, mph, km/h) used to spare! Right now that is a bit of a mess... Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 02:01, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

As long as the same style is maintained throughout the whole article, it shouldn't prevent GA. Project standards still aren't clear on this. I'd think at least use knots (which is the standard unit in most global databases) and km/h (to stay with the international SI theme)...any other units are just a bonus or eyesore, depending upon your point of view. I've just been using knots and km/h in the Pacific typhoon articles, and so far none of the reviewers have complained about it. Thegreatdr (talk) 05:33, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

χ kn (γ km/h, ζ mph) seems like the way to go. Knots are SI-accepted, and the primary unit in weather measurements, and km/h are used in most of the world. Since the Saffir-Simpson scale is talked about in some detail, we should have mph there too. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 07:33, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Anyone hear about this rainfall scale before?

This news article talks about a flooding potential scale that was to be used during the 1973 Atlantic hurricane season. I've never heard of it before, though similar scales have been proposed since then. Thegreatdr (talk) 02:55, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Yea, I was a bit blown away when I first added that bit to the 1973 AHS article. I added it intending to do further research, but I couldn't find anything on it. Maybe it was only used internally, and perhaps quickly abandoned? I couldn't find anything, so maybe it warrants an email to the NHC. --♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:12, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

No one at NHC may know about it, since they all arrived from 1984 onward. So far, I haven't turned up anything else on it through the newspaper archive. I'm sending an e-mail to two people, one inside NHC and one careful outside observer, asking if it was ever used. Chances are, they'll have to ask some of the retirees about it. It could be worth an e-mail to the tropical storms e-mail list, if NHC hasn't heard about it before. Thegreatdr (talk) 03:22, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

It might be a good idea to check the 1973 Hurricane Operational Plan as that will have the details i would bet. Though the problem of course comes to finding a copy of it as its not on the WMO Website.Jason Rees (talk) 03:29, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

One person responded, mentioning that he checked this article and that it contained no information on such a scale. Two people around NHC during the early 1970s have been e-mailed about the scale. Thegreatdr (talk) 17:10, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

A well-known retiree mentioned NHC did not use it, and he bridged the time period in question. My guess is that it remained on the drawing board. There was a change in NHC directors that year, if memory serves. Thegreatdr (talk) 00:09, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Potentially significant problem

This article has been improved a bit per recent suggestions. However, there may be a significant flaw. If Saffir-Simpson scale is covered, one or more sections should also be added for other ways to rate tropical cyclones such as Hurricane Severity Index and Accumulated cyclone energy. Such an issue could send this article back to C class and doom GA passage. Thegreatdr (talk) 22:41, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Would there be enough info on Alternative tropical cyclone scales? That could include info from above (the WPAC one), scales from other warning centers (like supertyphoon from JTWC), and ones like the HSI. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:10, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Another option I hadn't thought of previously would be Tropical cyclone indices to deal with HSI, ACE, and other similar scales that boil down TCs or TC seasons to a specific number. That would limit the impact to this article. Thegreatdr (talk) 01:40, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I like the option of us leaving out of this article Unoffical Scales and ACE, As they are not the scales that the WMO's RSMCs use. Jason Rees (talk) 01:48, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I also had the impression that the article was for detailing RSMC scales. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 07:56, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, the name of the article is so general that any tropical cyclone related scale can (and probably should) be included, if it is not renamed. That could exclude ACE and the cubed wind speed version (Emanuel's version) since they are not scales per se, and leave them to be treated in another broad article with a similar name, but something less POV forkish. Would a name change to something more specific, say Official tropical cyclone scales, do the trick? Thegreatdr (talk) 08:01, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Or Integrated Kinetic Energy, or the Hurricane Hazard Index... I think we might be able to get by with a note in the lede, but I would want more opinions about it. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 08:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the delayed answer, but I am of the opinion that at least for now it is ok to focus only on the officially used scales, and at some point creating another article with the alternative scales. I've added a clarification in the first paragraph of the introduction. Nergaal (talk) 18:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Then how about the extended Beaufort scale? There are apparently areas of the world that use the extended scale (forces 13-17) from its 1946 incarnation for tropical cyclones. Thegreatdr (talk) 01:38, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't feel like checking this, but there seems to be a lot of capitalization in the article that shouldn't be there. (For example, I don't think Tropical Depression should have any caps) Potapych (talk) 19:32, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Then be bold. =) Thegreatdr (talk) 21:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Mediterranean tropical cyclone redirect in this page?

Sorry, Why the page of Mediterranean tropical cyclone redirect from Tropical cyclone scales?? where is?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.60.131.179 (talk) 23:40, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Um it doesnt redirect here. It redirects to Tropical cyclone basins.Jason Rees (talk) 23:50, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

JTWC scale missing

Why there is no JTWC scale? It should be added. Philippines uses that scale. We do not have to consider the "major" ones. Kiddie Techie Talk 01:38, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I assume the JTWC scale you are going on about is Tropical Depression - Tropical Storm - Typhoon and Super Typhoon. In which case we do cover it under the Western Pacific with a whole paragraph devoted to the JTWC, though maybe we should make it clearer.Jason Rees (talk) 02:01, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, my fault. Yes, it was a little bit unclear, because the JTWC idenftifier is missing. Only the JMA identifier is present. Thanks. Kiddie Techie Talk 08:40, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

New table

Tropical Cyclone Classifications
Beaufort scale	10-minute sustained winds (knots)	N Indian Ocean IMD	SW Indian Ocean MF	Australia BOM	SW Pacific FMS	NW Pacific JMA	NW Pacific JTWC	NE Pacific & N Atlantic NHC & CPHC
0-6	<28	Depression	Tropical Depression	Tropical Low	Tropical Depression	Tropical Depression	Tropical Depression	Tropical Depression
7	28-29	Deep Depression
	30-33						Tropical Storm	Tropical Storm
8-9	34-47	Cyclonic Storm	Moderate Tropical Storm	Tropical Cyclone (1)	Tropical Cyclone	Tropical Storm
10	48-55	Severe Cyclonic Storm	Severe Tropical Storm	Tropical Cyclone (2)		Severe Tropical Storm
11	56-63						Typhoon	Hurricane (1)
12	64-72	Very Severe Cyclonic Storm	Tropical Cyclone	Severe Tropical Cyclone (3)		Typhoon
	73-85							Hurricane (2)
	86-89			Severe Tropical Cyclone (4)				Hurricane (3)
	90-99		Intense Tropical Cyclone
	100-106							Hurricane (4)
	107-114			Severe Tropical Cyclone (5)
	115-119		Very Intense Tropical Cyclone				Super Typhoon
	120	Super Cyclonic Storm						Hurricane (5)

I've created this table to try and more neutrally represent things. I've added the SSHS coloration to the NHC table, which is why it is at the far right. The US 1-min speeds have been converted using a 14% reduction factor which seems standard; see the discussion on Talk:2003 Pacific typhoon season. It may be an idea to incorporate the Beaufort Scale into this table as well. What do people think?--Nilfanion (talk) 12:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

It looks good, and I think including the Beaufort Scale would also be a good idea. Also, since we use the SSHS colors for the Australian scale where it appears on Wikipedia, we could use them in this table as well. —Cuiviénen 01:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually we use the color for the SSHS category of Australian storms, see how Cyclone Larry does it. We could just color in the whole table with the SSHS colors (split typhoon up for instance) but that would lose the clarity and look hideous. I've added the Beaufort scale now too (without that articles colors it would overwhelm IMO).--Nilfanion (talk) 08:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

And we could split up the windspeed like Beaufort scale does it, so we have knots, km/h and mph all listed.--Nilfanion (talk) 09:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Here brings up an issue I had never even thought about until I found it: how do you measure gusts? Do you use 1-second, 3-seconds, or apply a factor to the sustained winds? Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 23:35, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

IIRC there isn't that much difference between a 1 and 3 second averaging time (can't remember where I saw that) and I there is no simple relation between gusts and sustained winds (hence the edit war on Cyclone Larry). As for the relation of the Aus scale to the SS scale the Dvorak table at the bottom here is probably the best sign that the above table is valid - DT is how most storms are measured, its only the Atlantic and landfalling storms which get better treatment. I wonder if we should remove the actual windspeeds from the above table completely, as it compares to the Beaufort and SS scales it gives all the info someone would need to compare the scales, without a complicated explanation of the 10-min thing.--Nilfanion (talk) 23:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

What about PAGASA? Do they use a similar scale to JTWC, or to JMA, or do they have their own system? I remember that they called Bilis a typhoon when everyone else called it an TS/STS. Also, we should probably drop coloring for the SSHS if we're not using for anything else since IMO it draws too much attention to the US scale, making it seem somehow more important. I've also added specifications for where the NHC and JTWC cover. —Cuiviénen 02:34, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes the color does unbalance the table, the colors should be introduced on the section on the SSHS. I think, though I can't remember the source, that PAGASA uses 1-minute winds, probably due to the US influences in the country. Here's a PAGASA source on their scale. The only reason for mentioning the JTWC is that it was official in the NW Pacific, so older typhoon articles should use its data.

I've also redone the headers so the regions mention the RSMC for the basin. That means there is a redlink. I'm not sure if I have got the initialisms completely correct.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:15, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The last two columns seem very off on the conversions. For example, look at Damrey [3]. MSW at 10-minute average is 90 knots and at 1-minute average is 155 knots. It should be considered a Super Typhoon by the JTWC, but it doesn't meet the criteria. There are lots of other examples. Good kitty 21:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Nope the last column is correct. There is a standard ~15% conversion factor between the windspeeds in the literature. The problem is the JTWC disagrees with the RSMCs a lot of the time, when Damrey was at its peak it was 930 hPa/90 kt according to the JMA but according to the JTWC it was 155 kt which corresponds to 879 mbar according to the Atkinson-Holiday table in Dvorak technique.--Nilfanion (talk) 22:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

What does China use? I was just talking to a Chinese friend about a 1-8 scale for typhoons, but that doesn't seem to be for typhoons proper. -128.32.176.131 00:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)!

I think Hong Kong uses a typhoon scale which represents the threat to their portion of China. Thegreatdr (talk) 19:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

It's wrong. Sorry, I'm not a user - just a web-surfer, but the saffir-simpson scale says that Cat. 5 Hurricanes have winds greater than 157 mph. This graph says 138 mph. Someone needs to fix it.76.108.101.22 (talk) 17:05, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for posting here, but actually it's correct. The information is in 10-minute winds, since that's how the rest of the world operates. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:12, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Recovered section

The following text was in the West Pacific section of the article before the rewrite, and there might be the possibility of salvaging some good info from there: Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 01:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

West Pacific

NASA QuikSCAT image of Typhoon Nesat (2005) showing the near-surface winds generated by the storm 10 meters above the ocean. With winds of 213 kilometers per hour (115 knots or 132 mph) and gusts to 259 km/h (140 knots or 161 mph), Nesat was a Category 4 storm.

Japan, the Philippines, Hong Kong, Canada,Macau and Taiwan use the following scale to classify tropical cyclones. This scale is also for regional exchange among Typhoon Committee members.

Classification	Maximum sustained winds (km/h)	Maximum sustained winds (knots)	Corresponding Beaufort Force
Tropical Depression	≤62	≤33	Near gale (≤7)
Tropical Storm	63–88	34–47	Gale (8–9)
Severe Tropical Storm	89–117	48–63	Storm (10–11)
Typhoon	≥118	≥64	Hurricane (12)

Note:

• The sustained winds given in the table are based on a 10-minute average.
• Japan and Taiwan use another scale in their own languages.
• The Philippines merges the category "Severe Tropical Storm" with "Tropical Storm" when issuing public advisories.
• China uses a very similar scale except for the following:
  • 2-minute sustained winds are used.
  • The sustained winds of Tropical Depression is defined as being equivalent to a Beaufort force 6–7, i.e. a lower limit is set.
  • Typhoon is further divided into three categories since the sudden introduction of the extended Beaufort scale on May 15, 2006. The sustained winds of Typhoon, Severe Typhoon, and Super Typhoon are defined as being equivalent to a Beaufort force 12–13, 14–15, and 16–17, respectively.

References

Sorry man, Philippines doesn't use that scale. Philippines uses the JTWC one. Kiddie Techie Talk 01:38, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I think you should read the note below. It clearly states that the Philippines merges the category "Severe Tropical Storm" with "Tropical Storm" when issuing public advisories.165.125.180.10 (talk) 07:18, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The Hong Kong Observatory gives wind speed values for the RSMC Scale that are sometimes 1 km/h different (eg. 88-117 km/h instead of 89-117 km/h). Refer [4] (cited in article) or [5] Onanoff (talk) 01:08, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Chinese Scale

I've just noticed that the article doen't mentioned the Chinese systme (similar to the JTWC one). Details at http://www.weather.com.cn/typhoon/tfzs/04/397393.shtml (in Chinese).--Charlesisbozo (talk) 14:49, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

If you look closer the Chinese scale is mentioned as a part of the other scales section as the only differences from the official classifications being the Super and severe typhoon categories.Jason Rees (talk) 21:07, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

North Indian Ocean

It needs to be added that "Extremely severe cyclonic storm" was introduced, I believe this year. Someone with more knowledge on the scales (anyone?) would be able to help. Thanks :D ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:50, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Done :P Jason Rees (talk) 22:37, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Tropical cyclone scales/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Much improved; needs a final copyedit and formulae describing how to convert from 10-minute winds to 3-minute winds and 1-minute winds and vice versa for A-Class. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 07:35, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 07:35, 28 December 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 09:18, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

SI FTW, imperialistic bastards!

Why in the world are the values on this page backwards? SI notation is the world standard, not American imperial.

{{Sofixit}}. Titoxd^(?!?) 03:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that such language is necessary. You just might want to calm down a bit before you type. Princessthayet (talk) 02:01, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

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Issue with the wind speed

Im unsure if you guys notice this but the mph and km/h wind speeds are a bit messed up

you might notice it going form 102–117 km/h to suddenly 119–131 km/h

i know its form converting the kt to mph/km/h but come one it looks just wrong... it might be best to to put km/h first and convert it to mph and kt to not make it skip the wind speed — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshoctober16 (talk • contribs) 05:02, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

South Atlantic basin?

Does anybody here know what wind scale is used in the South Atlantic Ocean? I was contemplating adding a section for South Atlantic, but I first need corroborated information before doing so. SilSinn9821 (talk) 01:27, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

@SilSinn9821: The South Atlantic is not a basin. It has very limited activity (some years have no cyclones) is thus not recognized as a basin by the World Meteorological Organization. Figfires^{Send me a message!} 22:17, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

@Figfires: I know that, but regardless of that, there is an agency (Brazilian military) that monitors the area, so they must be using some sort of wind scale for their trackings and advisories. The question is what scale do they use, if any: a 1-min-sustained scale like Saffir-Simpson, a 3-min one like IMD's, a 5-min, or a 10-min scale like JMA's? Because otherwise, what criterion do they use before naming their cyclones? If they have a standardized wind scale, it should be noted here with supporting references/​citations, just like their list of storm names is included in Tropical cyclone naming, regardless of whether WMO recognizes them or not. --SilSinn9821 (talk) 19:41, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Chinese Scale section at the top of this talk page is empty

The first section in this talk page, #Chinese Scale, is eerily empty. What happened to its contents? Should it be removed altogether or have its original contents somehow restored? --SilSinn9821 (talk) 01:11, 2 December 2018 (UTC)