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Talk:Trans woman/Archive 9

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Lead sentence

Latest comment: 1 year ago68 comments11 people in discussion

Option 1 and Option 2 at the 2018 RFC (Talk:Trans woman/Archive 4#RfC on introduction) were:

1. A trans woman (sometimes trans-woman or transwoman) is a woman who was assigned male at birth.
2. A trans woman (sometimes trans-woman or transwoman) is a person who was assigned male at birth but identifies as a woman.

The RFC close stated (emphasis in the original):

On the whole, there is consensus that both option 1 and option 2 are superior to other presented options. There is no consensus as to whether option 1 or option 2 is preferable. In the absence of affirmative consensus, the status quo (which appears to be option 1) holds. This does not preclude any subsequent discussions about the article content, but participants should in all cases refrain from edit-warring over the content of the lead or the article more broadly.

This talk page and the archives are filled with those subsequent discussions. Two years ago, Talk:Trans woman/Definitions was created. It seems to me that out of the 37 definitions currently listed on the page, unless I'm miscounting, 6 support Option 1 while 27 support Option 2:

  • 5 definitions state "is a woman" (or similar), without mentioning "identity" (or similar), and 1 definition states "are women" and "identify as women":
6 definitions like Option 1

1. "A woman or girl assigned a male sex at birth." Harvard Medical School - Sexual and Gender Minority Health Equity Initiative

3. "a woman who was identified as male at birth" Merriam Webster - Trans Woman

24. "A trans woman is a woman who was assigned male at birth. Some trans women prefer to simply be referred to as women, whereas others feel being trans is an important part of their gender label." Victoria, Australia

26. "Trans woman: A woman who was assigned male at birth." BC Centre for Disease Control, Canada

35. "a trans woman is a woman who was assigned the sex male at birth" - The Effects of Gender Trouble: An Integrative Theoretical Framework of the Perpetuation and Disruption of the Gender/Sex Binary DOI: 10.1177/1745691620902442

15. "Trans women are women who were assigned male at birth and identify as women." Fired Up About Reproductive Rights - Jane Kirby - Between the Lines

  • 27 definitions state "identifies as a woman" (or similar) without stating "is a woman" (or similar):
27 definitions like Option 2

2. "A person whose sex assigned at birth was male but whose gender identity is female" Planned Parenthood - Transgender Identity Terms and Labels

5. "A child or adult who was born anatomically male but has a female gender identity" Princeton University: LGBT Center - The Language of Gender

6. "Someone assigned the male gender at birth who identifies on the female spectrum." Johns Hopkins University, School of Medicine - Glossary of Transgender Terms

7. "A person whose sex assigned at birth was male, but who identifies as a woman" American Psychological Association - Guidelines for Psychological Practice with Transgender and Gender Nonconforming People

8. "Generally refers to someone who was identified male at birth but who identifies and portrays her gender as female." Glossary of Gender and Transgender Terms - Fenway Health

9. "A person whose birth sex was male but who lives and identifies as a woman; a transgender woman." Lexico - Powered by Oxford

10. "people who were assigned the male sex at birth but identify as women" Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

11. "Children assigned male at birth who identify themselves as girls" American Academy of Pediatrics

12. "A transgender female or transwoman identifies her gender as female, but was biologically considered a male at birth." Family Dynamics and Romantic Relationships in a Changing Society - IGI Global

13. "A term to describe a person who was identified male at birth but who identifies and portrays her gender as female" Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Healthcare: A Clinical Guide to Preventive, Primary, and Specialist Care - Springer

14. "A person assigned male at birth who identifies as a woman or in similar terms (eg, as a “trans woman” or “woman of transgender experience”)." Transgender people: health at the margins of society - The Lancet

16. "individuals assigned male at birth who identify as female." Cornell University

17. "an adult who was assigned male at birth but whose gender identity is female." Dictionary.com

19. "A transgender person who identifies as a woman." American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language

21. "a transgender woman may be assigned male at birth, but transition to living as a woman consistent with her gender identity" US Department of Labor's Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)

22. "The term transgender woman typically is used to refer to someone who was assigned the male sex at birth but who identifies as a female." U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission: "Fact Sheet: Bathroom Access Rights for Transgender Employees under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964"

23. "MtF: an abbreviation for male-to-female. It refers to a transgender person who was assigned male at birth, and whose gender identity is that of a woman. This person would also be known as a transwoman. Egale Human Rights Trust (Canada)

27. "Transgender describes someone whose gender identity is different from the sex they were assigned at birth (this can also be shortened to “trans”). For example, a transgender woman is someone who was listed as male at birth but whose gender identity is female." Washington Post gender identity glossary

28. "Transgender woman: A term used to describe someone who is assigned male at birth but identifies and lives as a woman. This may be shortened to trans woman"Stonewall, a UK LGBT charity

29. "‘trans women’ are those born with male appearance but identifying as women." GIRES - trans education and research charity

30. "A person with a female gender identity and male assigned sex would be referred to as a 'transgender girl/woman,' 'transfemale,' or MTF (male to female)" "Transgender youth: current concepts", Annals of Pediatric Endocrinology & Metabolism

31. "Transgender woman/transwoman/transfeminine individual - Person with a feminine gender identity who was designated a male sex at birth" UpToDate, clinical decision support resource

32. "This refers to individuals assigned male at birth but who identify and live as women" "Endocrine Treatment of Gender-Dysphoric/Gender-Incongruent Persons: An Endocrine Society Clinical Practice Guideline", Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism

33. "We use 'trans woman' for someone who was registered male at birth and now identifies as a woman" NHS Digital Service Manual: Inclusive language

34. "a “trans woman,” is a genetic male consistent on all five biological definitions who identifies or thinks of herself as a female, and has “taken social, medical, or surgical steps to physically or socially feminize her gender expression or body”" - Handbook of Population (2019), Dudley L. Poston Jr.

36. "a trans-woman is a transgender person assigned male sex at birth but whose gender identity is that of a woman" - 2017 American Association for Geriatric Psychiatry Annual Meeting Gay and Gray Session: an Interdisciplinary Approach to Transgender Aging

37. " a trans woman is a person who identifies as a woman and was assigned male at birth" - Sexual and Gender-Based Violence (A Complete Clinical Guide) DOI: 10.1007/978-3-030-38345-9

  • 2 definitions say neither "is a woman" nor "identifies as a woman", and instead say "living as a woman"; and 2 definitions say none of the above:
4 definitions like neither

4. "A transgender woman lives as a woman today, but was thought to be male when she was born" National Center for Transgender Equality - Frequently Asked Questions about Transgender People

25. "those assigned male at birth but living as a woman" BBC

18. "a transgender or transsexual woman" Collins Dictionary

20. "Transgender woman": "This category includes persons whose sex assigned at birth was reported as male and whose current gender was reported as female. It also includes persons whose current gender was indicated as transwoman." Statistics Canada: Classification of cisgender and transgender

I don't know if the list of definitions at Talk:Trans woman/Definitions is complete, or a representative sample of the scholarship, or if all the sources should be given equal weight. Personally, I believe a trans woman is a woman, but looking at the definitions, I can't ignore that they tilt very strongly towards Option 2 and not Option 1, and I wonder whether we should have an RFC with those two options (one somewhat-minor quibble: I would change the "but" to "and" in Option 2). Levivich 04:39, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Reviewing the definitions and their sources, I have to 100% agree with you that "Personally, I believe a trans woman is a woman, but looking at the definitions, I can't ignore that they tilt very strongly towards Option 2 and not Option 1..." EvergreenFir (talk) 05:13, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Support Option 2 - Firstly, I'd like to thank Levivich for providing the above information in an organized manner. Option 2 is clearly the definition that is supported by reliable sources. A margin of 27-6. Furthermore, it's the type of sourcing that supports Option 2 is particularly strong. Sources such as Princeton University, John Hopkins School of Medicine, the American Psychological Association, Centers for Disease Control, American Academy of Pediatrics, The Lancet, Cornell University, and NHS all support Option 2. Those sources are among the most credible and prestigious in the world. Only one such source, Harvard Medical School, endorses Option 1. The decision IMO is clearly in favor of Option 2. Iamreallygoodatcheckerst@lk 05:24, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    I would like to add that I'd be in favor of an RfC. This issue has come up before, and it needs to be settled. Iamreallygoodatcheckerst@lk 05:26, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Same. It's time to put the subpage to use and settle this issue in accord with WP:DUE. Levivich's detailed analysis is very helpful. It's clear which definition reliable sources think is a better and more educational explanation. Crossroads -talk- 06:08, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
In the interest of not fanning the flames of controversy, (and yet another NOCON RfC) we should try not to frame discussion as if we are determining the verifiability of trans identity itself, but rather, what is the best, most neutral, concise definition of this term. Sources which say "is a person" shouldn't be taken as "is something other than a woman"
If we are going to propose RfC options, I agree with changing but to and. Likewise, and has a female gender identity is preferable in my view to but identifies as a woman, and roughly as prevalent. I believe Crossroads at some point suggested a construction like A trans woman was assigned male at birth but has a gender identity as a woman, mostly with the intent of sidestepping the thorny issue, so that too may also be worth discussing.
The chief concern raised with person who... but identifies as a woman, or any of the various amalgams of woman-gender male-assigned biomale woman person thing is that it treats gender identity with an WP:UNDUE amount of skepticism and surprise. I don't want to slip into an us-them mentality, but my hesitance toward it stems largely from the innumerable editors who have argued for this change specifically because they believe it validates their FRINGE anti-trans POV that trans women are either men, or a third gender. As an admittedly weak analogy, imagine a sentence like: Homeopathy is a system of medical treatment based on the principle of homeopathic dilution, and considered by its many practitioners to be an effective at curing disease, but which scientists identify as pseudoscience. Technically accurate, definitely not neutral.
Oh, and in the interest of assessing due weight and recency, it would also be nice if we had dates associated with each of our listed sources. Biologically yours, –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 06:51, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Dropping in to say I agree wholeheartedly with Roxy's explanation of the and/but difference. Also credit to Levivich for bringing the issue of the lead sentence up in such a well thought-out fashion. — Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Join WP:FINANCE! 11:01, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
I added dates to Talk:Trans woman/Definitions. It looks like the Option 1 sources are 2016-2020, the Option 2 sources range 2015-2022, a bunch are undated, but I'm not seeing any trends along date lines, e.g., one category being newer or older than the other. Levivich 14:29, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Excellent, thanks for doing that. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 17:36, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
  • I should note that this discussion does not exist in a vacuum: there is a long running dispute of the definitions of Female and Woman which ties into this. Further, consideration should be given to Trans male, since the wording of the leads of trans male and trans female are aligned. I also quite agree with Roxy: the use of "and" rather than "but" is more appropriate. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 07:43, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Object to framing of the question - it is still my belief, as I have expressed approximately 103 times previously, that it is simply incorrect to lump together a range of formulations (as Levivich just has) as though they support identifies as a woman. In particular, whose gender identity is that of a woman, whose gender identity is female and similar, do not mean the same thing as identifies as a woman, and neither for that matter to all the identifies and portrays definitions (that include gender expression alongside gender identity) in that long list. Only identifies as sources can be used to support that (minority) wording, IMO. Newimpartial (talk) 15:27, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    Out of 37 definitions, only 6 say what Option 1 says, "is a woman", while 31 do not say that, they say something else. That's the part that needs addressing: "is a woman" is a distinct minority, and by a 5:1 ratio. That's an enormous discrepancy that just shouts WP:UNDUE.
    If you think they're not properly grouped, please group them properly and show us what that looks like; it might help us in thinking about these definitions.
    Finally, can you cite some sources that explain the difference between "identifies as a woman", "whose gender identity is that of a woman", and "whose gender identity is female"? Levivich 15:52, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    Yes, I can do that at some point, but first to clarify: the main distinctions I see are: (1) between the vague "identifies as" (along with the pseudo-precisions "identifies themselves as", and so on) on the one hand, and the more precise "has the gender identity of" a woman/female on the other (with no meaningful distinction between "woman" and "female"), and (2) purely identity-based descriptions vs. identity and expression descriptions (the latter including "lives as", etc.) I hope this helps. Newimpartial (talk) 16:02, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    I appreciate that, but it doesn't help if it's just an editor's opinion. If sources make the distinction between "identifies as" and "has the gender identity of", then it matters, which is why I'm asking for sources that state that these two do not mean the same thing.
    The identity/expression distinction I've already seen in sources, but that isn't relevant, because a distinct minority of definitions (only 2 out of 37) mention gender expression ("lives as a woman").
    It seems to me, based on the definitions, that identity (but not expression, and not being a woman, whatever that may mean) is a core component of "trans woman" (and "trans man"), according to mainstream scholarly consensus. To Eek's point above, what I see is that the sources seem to avoid defining "man" and "woman" at all, and what they generally say is that there is no real consensus definition of those terms, and that gender is complex and poorly understood; i.e., nobody really knows exactly who is and who isn't a man or a woman, and the sources don't presume to state it definitively. I also wonder whether the sources are avoiding perpetuating the gender binary, e.g., by not trying to label everyone as either a man or a woman. Hence, it seems most of the definitions use "person", as in "a trans woman is a person who...", which I frankly think is a better way to start the definition. (I would similarly think we could say "A man/woman is a person who...".) Levivich 16:16, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    Without getting into the weeds, yet, I want to make three basic points:
    (1) Five of the definitions you listed here refer to gender expression, by my count: three using "lives" and two using "portrays";
    (2) you seem inclined to interpret definitions saying "an X is A and B" as though such definitions are additive towards "an X is A" and "an X is B", as well as towards "an X is A and B". I dispute this approach;
    (3) there is some kind of a slope between "defining A as X" (but not as Y) and "defining A as X but not as Y". I am not at all convinced that many of the sources on the subpage intend to define a trans woman as a person who identifies as a woman (but is not one). On the other hand, many editors have come to this Talk page to do just that. In choosing among language supported by reliable sources (and I too prefer "person" language in this context), we should try not to leave the reader with the impression that a trans woman identifies as a woman (but is not one) unless the sources support this rather strongly. Newimpartial (talk) 16:29, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    On #1, that's true; two mention expression only, and three mention identity and expression, so overall, expression is mentioned in 14% of the definitions (5/37), and identity is mentioned in 73% (27/37). I don't understand #2: if X is A and B, then X is A and X is B, no? On #3, point taken, and I agree that one of the advantages of "with a female gender identity" (suggested below) over "identifies as a woman" (option 2) is that the former doesn't carry the potential implication of "(but is not one)". Levivich 17:19, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
  • How about something like "A trans woman is someone with a female gender identity that was assigned male at birth"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:21, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    I would support that, but suggest this slight revision: A trans woman is a person with a female gender identity who was assigned male at birth. If/when Draft:Female (gender) is moved to mainspace, we could update that link; otherwise, we link "gender identity" but not "female" per WP:SEAOFBLUE and WP:OVERLINK and WP:AVOIDDRAMA. Levivich 16:26, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    I like the linking. Any reason to go for "is a person" vs. "is someone"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:29, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    I feel that "someone" is vaguer than "person", but that's really just a stylistic preference, not like a material content thing. That's just, like, my opinion, man. Levivich 16:31, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    On further thought, it's about the potential connotation that "someone" is referring to someone specific. To me it's clearer to say, "A trans woman is anyone with a female gender identity who was assigned male at birth" rather than "someone". But I still like "person" better than "anyone", because for some reason, "anyone" feels to me like we're imposing a rule. Like as if we're saying, "Anyone with a female gender identity who was assigned male at birth shall be a trans woman". Levivich 16:35, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    Cool. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    It’s basically OR, but I do (stylistically) prefer “someone” and “individual” over person. For lack of a better word, it feels less explicitly non-gendered. There is an emergent gender trinary in English (man/woman/person, he/she/they, etc.), where the neutral variants are (mis)taken as embodying a gender unto itself, not just indifference to or absence of a traditional binary identity. In queer spaces, “my person” is sometimes used as the explicitly non-binary equivalent to “my boyfriend/girlfriend”. “Someone” does not carry that same baggage, and (in my view) makes no such judgement about the gender of the someone described. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 17:09, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    Relatedly (and again, based solely on my personal biases) I also support formulations which state gender first and sex assignment second. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 17:44, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    I still prefer my previous proposal to use "female gender" rather than "female gender identity". However, I have no problem with this format of definition in general (and prefer "person" to "someone"). Newimpartial (talk) 16:34, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    I forgot about that. Would it be "with a female gender" or "of the female gender"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    I think person of the female gender is correct, of course that is just a slightly long-winded way of saying woman. Identity is the thing you have (as in, has a female gender identity), whereas gender itself is embodied (is female… is of the female gender… etc.). –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 17:13, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    Of the 37 definitions:
    • None use the term "female gender" (except as part of "female gender identity", which is in #5 and #30)
    • 3 use the term "gender" without referring to identity (#20 "current gender", #24 "gender label", #34 "gender expression")
    • 12 mention gender identity: 10 use the exact phrase "gender identity" (#2, #5, #8, #17, #21, #23, #27, #30, #31, #36); #12 uses "identifies her gender as female"; #13 uses "identifies and portrays her gender as female"
    • 1 mentions both gender and gender identity (#6 "assigned the male gender at birth who identifies on the female spectrum")
    • 15 mention identity but not gender (#3, #7, #9, #10, #11, #14, #15, #16, #19, #22, #28, #29, #32, #33, #37)
    • 6 don't mention identity or gender (#1, #4, #18, #25, #26, #35)
    So of 37 definitions, 15 speak of identity but not gender identity; 12 speak of gender identity; 3 speak of "gender" but not identity; and none use "female gender" (except in "female gender identity"). I do not think the sources support our using "female gender" instead of "female gender identity". Levivich 17:14, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    Your close analysis is very much appreciated—female gender doesn’t seem well-supported, it looks like has an identity and equivalents are more prevalent.
    I would like to remind the viewers at home that while tallying can be helpful in determining due weight and settling factual disputes, it is not policy that the article text must be a verbatim reproduction of the unweighted supermajority of RS. I think trying to split sources over the exact word choice might be counterproductive compared to the higher-level views presented earlier.
    Conceptually, we’re divided between “a woman who is AMAB (i.e. transgender)” vs. “a human with woman identity who is AMAB”. Sources generally prefer the latter, and I agree: it’s far more explanatory. But we as encyclopedia editors we have considerable leeway in determining the best way for Wikipedia to phrase that statement, as long we’re not diverging materially from RS. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 17:34, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    Thanks, and I agree with that, and would also add as a reminder to viewers at home that even though I've been the one doing the tallying, not every source is equal in weight to every other source, so a simple tally isn't dispositive. For example, some of the definitions are from sources like Harvard Medical School or the American Academy of Pediatrics, while others are news media. The news media is RS, even top news media, but still not on the same level as top medical schools and medical organizations. It's quite possible that a weighted analysis would yield different conclusions (although in this case, I don't think so, because I see broad agreement for FFF's proposed wording among a supermajority of definitions). Levivich 17:45, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
    I agree on this point. — Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Join WP:FINANCE! 17:41, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Something that needs to be considered still is "female gender identity" vs. "gender identity as a woman" (with those exact wikilinks). I prefer the latter as it has more useful wikilinks and matches the sources more, which usually describe identity with "woman" rather than "female". With "gender" vs. "gender identity", I agree that the latter is WP:DUE by a large margin, but it's also clearer. It is that specific form of gender that is the defining factor here per RS. With "is a person" vs. "is someone" vs. dodging that with e.g. "a trans woman has a gender identity as a woman...", naturally I do favor the last of the three as I did suggest it a while back, but for this one I think we should go with whichever has the most likelihood of being chosen in the RfC. I still think that would be my suggestion, but this needs more discussion. Finally, for "but" vs. "and", I believe "but" reads better, but again, we should choose whichever is more likely to be accepted.
So in full my suggested proposal reads: A trans woman has a gender identity as a woman [but/and] was assigned male at birth. Crossroads -talk- 06:57, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
I still prefer Levivich's proposal; yours sounds like trans women aren't women because it is not mentioned explicitly. — Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Join WP:FINANCE! 10:51, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
FWIW, I did another count:
  • When referring to gender, 23 use woman/women/girl (#'s 1 3 4 7 9 10 11 14 15 18 19 21 23 24 25 26 28 29 32 33 35 36 37) and 13 use female/feminine (2 5 6 12 13 16 17 20 22 27 30 31 34). One (#8) uses both ("girl/woman/female" -- whoever wrote that definition clearly had the same discussion we're having).
  • As for the conjunction between gender and sex (e.g., "[gender] but [sex]" or "[gender] and [sex]"), 18 use "but" (2 4 5 6 7 9 10 12 13 17 21 22 25 27 28 29 32 36), 5 use "and" (15 20 23 33 37), and 16 use neither "but" nor "and" (1 3 8 11 14 15 16 18 19 24 26 27 30 31 34 35).
On the "person" construction, I'm not sure that's it will be obvious to the reader that a trans woman is a person if we don't say that explicitly. Now, it's obvious that a trans woman is a person to anyone who already knows what that term means, but for someone who has never heard of the term (imagine the hundreds of millions of people for whom English is a second [or third, fourth] language and who live in non-English-speaking countries, perhaps with cultures where this is far more taboo than it is in the West), it may not be so clear, and subtle hints like the punctuation of the title may not be apparent. For example: Nasty woman is a phrase, not a person; New Woman is a feminist ideal, not a person; Pioneer Woman is a statute; Invisible Woman is fictional character; Angry black woman is a stereotype; No Woman is a film; Black Magic Woman is a song. A reader may not know that a Trans woman is a person, and not a stereotype, phrase, idea, statute, fictional character, song, film, etc., unless we say it explicitly. Levivich 14:54, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
I'd count that much differently. Of the definitions referring to gender or gender identity explicitly:
  • 8 use "female" (2, 5, 12, 13, 17, 20, 27, 30)
  • 1 arguable uses "female" (6)
  • 2 use "woman" (23, 36)
  • 2 arguably use "woman" (21, 24)
  • 1 uses both (8)
  • 2 use neither option (31 uses feminine, 34 has "feminize her gender expression")
Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:10, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
You don't think that, for example, #7 ("identifies as a woman") refers to gender or gender identity explicitly? Is "woman" an implicit reference to gender or gender identity? If so, then I think it would be better for us to be explicit than implicit about gender/gender identity in the first sentence, which would mean "female" is categorically better than "woman". But I would call "woman" an explicit reference to gender. I'm not sure what the sources say. Levivich 15:49, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
I was thinking that since we are being literally explicit about gender or gender identity, as in using the words, that it's much more common to use "female" than "woman". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:07, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Oh, I see what you're saying. Out of the 37 definitions, 16 contain the word "gender". Of those 16, 4 contain the word "woman" (but not "female"), 9 "female" (but not "woman"), 1 "feminine", 1 "feminize", and 1 both "female" and "woman". Ergo, when describing gender (or gender identity, or gender expression, etc.), "female" (or similar) is much more common than "woman". I understand now, thanks. Levivich 16:30, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Regarding [[female]] [[gender identity]] vs [[gender identity|identity]] as a [[woman]], I think the idea behind the latter is just to include a useful link back to Woman (a problem we only create if we remove it in the first place), given that Woman is presumably a somewhat more relevant target than the Female article.
Regarding person/someone/individual, I agree that the point is probably moot; an RfC option should probably just stick with person. But it is worth noting that (by my count) only 10 of the sources listed in support of Option 2 actually use "person". 6 use "someone", 3 use "individual", and the remaining ones sidestep it.
I'm still unconvinced by the implication that is a woman in Wikivoice is UNDUE based on the existing sources, although certainly many editors would like for it to be. "Woman"[1 2 3 4 5 6] and "person" [2 7 9 13 14 19 23 30 36 37)] are of course not mutually exclusive, so it is misguided to present the sources which don't explicitly include it as if they are actively in contention with those that do. It was suggested in the RfC that mere usage of trans woman (in place of alternatives) implies a baseline acceptance of trans womanhood.
To be especially creative, we could also treat these as two distinct facts to be verified. I've suggested this a half-dozen times now (and the criticisms are noted; it's just an example), but in the effort to have our cake and eat it too:
A trans woman is a woman[1–6] who was assigned male at birth but has a female gender identity[7–37].
Without being glurgy, I also want to say I'm grateful for the civility and constructiveness of this discussion, and that while an RfC is a very probable outcome of this discussion, that we're not blindly rushing to rehash the previous one without first attempting to advance the consensus and map out the likely survey choices. Controversial site-wide discussions conducted too soon tend to generate more light than heat. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 16:58, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Ooh, I quite like that approach Roxy. I see no reason that the descriptions must be mutually exclusive (though again I suggest the use of "and" instead of "but"). CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 19:26, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
I find the approach borderline SYNTH. Also a bit confusing. I don't understand why its needed to say woman twice. It's already established when saying "trans woman" that they are a woman. It quite literally has woman in it. Iamreallygoodatcheckerst@lk 19:29, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
@Iamreallygoodatcheckers I think it makes sense to say woman twice? In my experience, a lot of folks are confused by the terminology, and thus try to work themselves in circles. I.e., if you say trans woman, they will conclude that what you mean is a what would be correctly classified a trans man. So I think a little repetition doesn't hurt. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 19:47, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
The confusion you are explaining is solved by the "assigned male at birth" part. That seems to make it pretty clear. Iamreallygoodatcheckerst@lk 03:53, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
woman...but has a female gender identity is redundant and doesn't really make sense (and same for "and"). Stating both things together reads very oddly. It, ironically enough, implies that some or many women do not have a female gender identity. "Is a person" is not saying "is not a woman". I would have to oppose this. Crossroads -talk- 06:41, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Comment - This isn't strictly about the lead sentence, but it is related, and I'd like to raise it before the temperature in the room changes. In examining the lede, it occurs to me that the concept of gender expression is downplayed in the lead but also equally in the body (it is virtually only mentioned in the terminology section). This may reflect the sources actually used in the article presently, but I'm not sure it reflects the available sources for this and the related concept of "presentation" (which doesn't appear in the article at all). Perhaps I am burdened by disputes at Conversion therapy and elsewhere, where editors seemed inclined to remove well-sourced references to gender expression, but I feel (based on my sense of the subject matter) that an article space discussion centered on identity, to the near exclusion of expression, does not do justice to the topic.

Now I recognize that different contexts produce different meanings and different outcomes, and not all jurisdictions have followed Canada in treating gender identity and gender expression as two equally protected characteristics in our legal framework for human rights - so my sense of the subject matter is to some extent parochially Canadian. But the MEDRS literature also deals with gender expression (and its synonyms) at fairly great length IMO, and while not all of these sources relate to Trans women and Trans men, undoubtedly the great majority of them do. So in an ideal LEADFOLLOWSBODY world, I would like to engage editors to think about expanding references to gender expression in the article before finalizing the lead RfC (since any lead that passes an RfC will most likely become very difficult to change ex post. Newimpartial (talk) 18:17, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

I think in discussions about complex and nuanced articles like the one about trans women it is best to stick to simple questions and straight-forward dialogue. For now I believe we should stick to the lead sentence's definition of a trans woman; any issues with expression can be discussed later. — Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Join WP:FINANCE! 18:20, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
To be clear, the issue of gender expression could affect whatever the "change" option for the lead sentence turns out to be; it won't affect the "status quo" option. Newimpartial (talk) 18:24, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
I won't be discussing gender expression as part of a one-sentence definition of what trans women are. I see it as counter-productive to engage in that at this stage, even if I see a point in discussing it as part of improvements to the lead paragraph as a whole at a later stage. I'm just saying let's not try to grab the bush with the rose and get our hands pricked. — Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Join WP:FINANCE! 23:18, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
I don't think any plausible outcome regardless of what we do to the body ends up with gender expression being put in the first sentence, because most definitions don't mention it. So there may be a place for addressing gender expression, but this isn't it. Crossroads -talk- 06:35, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
Definitely, but yeah, we're basically working through what a good alternative proposal will be. That said, we do want to be careful not to get too caught up in that and end up never doing the RfC. Crossroads -talk- 21:08, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
I would like to say when we do choose to move to a RfC, It would be nice to have it narrowed to 2 options because anymore usually leads to a no consensus result. Iamreallygoodatcheckerst@lk 22:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
For sure. Crossroads -talk- 03:59, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Not if it's just Option 1 vs. Option 2 again. Don't we all have better things to do? I skimmed the 2018 RfC again—I wasn't around at the time—and was struck by (1) the similarity of options and arguments compared to the RfC being proposed now, and (2) just how exhausted by this issue everyone sounded at the beginning of that discussion, let alone the end. Besides the growing moral panic against transgender people, editor turnover, and the discovery that it is possible to stack our current list of sources such that naive vote-counting mildly supports one side or the other, I don't think much has changed since that discussion.
Do we really need to produce another 100 KB of butting of heads, only to find ourselves right back at the conclusion that:
  1. There exist strong, good-faith policy arguments for either "person" or "woman".
  2. Every contributor with any opinion on this issue finds their position intractably superior.
  3. ...And will continue, regardless of result, to propose re-re-re-discussions until they get their way?
I apologize for my pessimistic tone, and I am aware of the biases belying it because I presently favor the status quo (or something like it). There is a snowball's chance that a streamlined two-choice RfC on just "Person" vs. "Woman" could generate useful consensus. But I'm not holding my breath that a rehash of the rehash of the rehash will actually put the issue to bed, or give anyone their darling outcome. Definition of insanity, and all that. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 07:37, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Have faith in the process. I think it's progress that Draft:Female (gender) was created. Although many editors may consider it navel gazing, I think that there are those of us in the academic community are very pro navel gazing. If it's possible to integrate reliable sources regarding the former, maybe we can do so for the latter. Theheezy (talk) 14:58, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Your edit summary seems to accept that an RfC will happen, but anyway, it wouldn't be the exact same alternative option. The original RfC is 5 years old and was a mere no consensus result, and contained 4 different options (plus 4 more vague options). That's a mess and should definitely be avoided - just a simple two-way choice is the way to go. There also wasn't a list of definitions last time. If the current definition is really the best, then it would succeed. Crossroads -talk- 18:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
In hindsight, I was pointlessly negative, and I'm sorry for that. What I meant to say was "Yes but we should use one of the newly proposed formulations as the second option". I think I was just feeling frustrated by my anticipation of FORUM-ing and BATTLEGROUND-ing on an issue I am personally sensitive to.
You're right that having a defn list on-hand is a big step forward, and I agree that an RfC with the minimal number of concrete options is probably for the best, although I think some of the alternatives are still worth exploring. The above discussion seems to generally support the second option being:
A trans woman is a person who was assigned male at birth and has a female gender identity.
Based on definitions #19, 23, and 36, we could also consider saying "transgender person" instead, which I think would be somewhat useful in clarifying that we're not talking about a mistaken/ambiguous sex assignment (at least, not in the literal sense). The phrase "transgender or transsexual person" also springs to mind. Defns #16, 18, and 40 (the OED) include transsexual.
And if we're deadset on linking to Woman rather than Female, I think the correct phrasing of that is found in defn #23:
A trans woman is a transgender person who was assigned male at birth and whose gender identity is that of a woman.
–RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 04:10, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Notes

2c: While I think the current wording is best, I do also kinda like Crossroads' idea of sidestepping any noun ("A trans woman [...verb phrase...]"), I just wonder: are there other articles which start off that way, "An article subject [verb phrase]" instead of "An article subject is a [noun] which [verb phrase]"? If so, I think that could be a good option to consider here; I'd just be wary if it'd make this article the odd duck out.
I think "A trans woman is a [woman/person...]" is better than "A trans woman is a transgender [woman/person] who [definition of what being transgender is]" because the latter seems pleonastic; also, we have an entire lead paragraph saying "transgender woman is not always interchangeable with transsexual woman", so defining trans woman explicitly as transgender suggests a transsexual woman is not a trans woman, but I don't think that's the intent or accurate.
Do we want any RfC about this to also cover the Trans man article, mutatis mutandis? -sche (talk) 00:30, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
Yes, I think so. Most (all?) of the entries in the definition subpage apply to both. Levivich 20:54, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Some editors undoubtedly think the status quo lead sentence is better than any of the various suggested alternatives. For those who think one of the alternatives is better, is there one alternative that everyone supports, or is there a split of opinion here between two (or more) alternatives? Because if there is one alternative that has strong support, perhaps it's best to just propose that single alternative in an RfC, and those who prefer the status quo can !vote "oppose", and we won't have the complexities of a multi-option RfC. If there is a split of opinion, then perhaps a multi-option RfC is the best way to go, although in that case, I'd be in favor of no more than three options: status quo and two alternatives. Levivich 02:57, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
    I think A trans woman is a person who was assigned male at birth and has a female gender identity. should be pitted against the status quo. I think the alternative is pretty much the one everyone is hinting at in this discussion. Notice it doesn't use "but" which some have objected too. Iamreallygoodatcheckerst@lk 03:06, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
    I would support that over the status quo. Anyone else? Is proposing this change worth an RFC? Levivich 15:30, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
I think it's time. Crossroads -talk- 19:19, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
"All right, let's do this one last time." As one final piece of housekeeping before initiating centralized discussion with these two options, it would be good to make clear in the RfC's introduction that any new outcome would also be applied to Trans man in parallel fashion. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 04:51, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
I've posted a note at Talk:Trans man about this discussion. Levivich 04:57, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Definitions subpage reorganized - I've boldly reorganized Talk:Trans woman/Definitions to categorize the sources. Several new sources have been added since this discussion started (thank you to those who added them), and while this changes the numbering, I think for the RFC, it's better to have these organized rather than in one long unorganized list. The categories have letters attached to them, so we could refer in the future to sources as "A-1, S-2, O-4", etc., which I think is better. The permalink for the version before my change is Special:Permalink/1104746005 (also, it's permalinked above, so anyone wanting to reference the old numbering while reading the prior discussion can still do so). The permalink for the reorganized link is Special:Permalink/1104748675. Anyone should feel free to revert/change the organization if it's not an improvement. Levivich 17:59, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
This was a good move, thank you. This helps when evaluating WP:WEIGHT. Crossroads -talk- 23:09, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Jails in UK

Latest comment: 1 year ago4 comments2 people in discussion

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57692993 Xx236 (talk) 09:06, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a specific edit request? Also, this article is from July 2021... Funcrunch (talk) 19:36, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
Does this page inform aboout trans women in jails? The majority of references is older that 2021.Xx236 (talk) 07:19, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
I think the Transgender inequality or Legal status of transgender people articles might be better homes for the topic of trans women in jails/prisons. Funcrunch (talk) 21:45, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
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