Talk:Toplou Monastery

comments and deletions by Toyotsu

To the public: I'm enhancing this article, filling in, finding refs. Meanwhile in Itanus I picked up an editor who is mainly interested in my changes. So, some of my reasons or some of this dicussion will be as though directed toward his effort. It's all right. If you choose to edit, call it as you see it. WP encourages everyone to participate. This should be a positive event.

To Toyotsu: Well, hello there. I've been waiting for you to show up. I thought you might follow my trail. I felt some concern at first but now I want to be careful. I don't want to be unhospitable or make you feel bad in any way. That isn't what WP is about. We see edit wars a lot and they are only models of what goes on in the academic world, which I never really liked much. No, I don't want that. I would say, edit wherever you like, do whatever you want. Say whatever you please. I'm going to stop expressing opinions about what you say. I don't know what you are really feeling and I don't want to make it any worse. Do what you think you have to do. This is, however, not a private effort, but it is a public one. There are rules. No offense, but I suggest you follow them. Do not take it amiss if I do. Now of course I am familiar with the rule that anyone may remove unreferenced material at any time. If that is the gist of your contributions then I will live with it. I note you don't say "unreferenced material" but give your personal opinions instead. You have me there; I can't reply without involving us in a long argument to no avail. So, I will not reply to your opinions. Go ahead, say whatever please. We have free speech here and I believe WP honors it. I will, however, insist on the rules. You should have no problem with that. Well I think that covers it. You know, with you at my back there is no reason why we should not clean up all the East Crete articles, and maybe more. I do jump around a bit. See you wherever, but don't expect more time spent on discussions. I think we've said everything.Botteville (talk) 02:55, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Knights of Malta

Well, at the time they plundered Toplou, they were not yet on Malta but were just coming from Rhodes. Fortunately WP has a lot of articles on them so I blue-linked the one I thought appropriate.Botteville (talk) 03:00, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Historical context and taking sides

Thank you Botteville for adding sources and writing about the general historical context of Toplou. I am not sure that neutrality is respected as for the moment in the summary the Turks looks like the nasty foreigners in Crete while the Venetians seem to be there legitimately. And a reference for the the Knights Hospitalier in 1530 would be welcome. As for "Ironically", it was a personal comment and I deleted it; your sense of humor was probably not shared by the people involved. Yours --Toyotsu (talk) 15:05, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the discussion. Better atmosphere. You may be right. The order IS still around, and it is more like the hospittalers in its objectives and charity. Still, we cannot be responsible for the past misdeeds of organizations now well-behaved. The predation of the knights at that time is marvelled at in the sources. I will need some time to get it right. As for the prejudice between Greeks and Turks, the conflict between our friends and allies the Greeks and our friends and allies the Turks has always been of great concern to the English-speaking worlds. Still, if the Ottomans had not behaved badly there would have been no need for Ataturk, and if the Barbary pirates were gentlemen there would have been no need for an American fleet to bombard Algiers, and if slavery were a tolerable why on earth did we fight the civil war? As I say, we cannot take responsibility for their past misdeeds, although many of ours were just as bad. But I am heeding your caution about sensitivity and will stet the deletion and look for the appropriate references. I know the Venetians didn't behave better but right at that moment in history the Cretans were being attacked by Turks not Venetians. As you surmised, you can't get everything into one small (relatively) article. Sorry to bore you but co-authorship requires keeping the channels of communication open. Later, after I do the work.Botteville (talk) 15:57, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Hospitallers

I can't find any evidence that the hospitallers raided Toplou after extensive search. Since it is not referenced it should come out so I took it out. The hospitallers landed briefly in Crete in 1523 to get out of a storm and were offered permanent refuge but turned it down. In 1535 they obtained Malta from the emperor and were all involved in setting up there. As to their piracy it seems to have been mainly against the Turks. If anyone can find anything on the supposed sacking by the hospitallers, please do put it in. Right now it is out. As not much of the subsequent is referenced I suppose similar errors will be there also.Botteville (talk) 04:50, 14 May 2022 (UTC)