Talk:The Black Dahlia Murder (band)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Why The Current (Protected) Version Should Remain

The Black Dahlia Murder is a band from Detroit, Michigan.

The most neutral as a description could be.

Their musical genre has been a subject of debate among listeners and fans - sometimes being called melodic death metal, and other times metalcore.

TRUE. In reviews at both Amazon.com and CD Now, reviewers refer to the band as Metalcore or Melodic Death Metal. (There's even a list on Amazon.com in which TBDM is listed as a "Top Metalcore Band").

Out of 79 reviews of "Unhallowed", 4 people called it metalcore, 1 person called it hardcore and 1 called it grindcore. Didn't bother with Miasma, because it clearly is death metal (not even that melodic) but you wouldn't know because you never heard it.

There is also mention of hardcore/metalcore for the Miasma page at Amazon. I have heard the album in its entirety and it is really no different than any other metalcore band that used Swedish Death Metal in their influences. Again, how are they different than other American metalcore bands with Swedish Death Metal influences? -Danteferno

However, some think that their Swedish Death Metal influence would make them a melodic death metal band. Fact is, they've been categorized as both.

Only by you

FALSE. You JUST acknowledged (above) that reviewers on Amazon called TBDM hardcore/metalcore (as you stated (hesitantly) in your own biased revert). What is the point of denial?-Danteferno

I meant on wikipedia. Besides, those saying it's metalcore are a negligible minority. Also, many of the other reviews say that "people who think TBDM is metalcore are plainly wrong"

If this was actually a minority (it isn't), then the claim of metalcore wouldn't even matter and wouldn't be stressed as heavily as you made it in the article. -Danteferno

However, in a press release, the band also describes their sound as Hardcore-influenced death metal, which in some respect confirms the metalcore label.

TRUE.

FALSE. Not the band, their record label.

Again, what lead their record label to use such terminology? (Everyone seems to know why except you.)-Danteferno

Their first demo? lack of knowledge? wanting to sell their records to the metalcore crowd?

So you don't know. Their first demo? (Highly doubtful.) Lack of knowledge (I don't think Metal Blade Records employs idiots.) wanting to sell their records to the metalcore crowd? (I think the metalcore scene knows a metalcore band when they see/hear one and don't need a record label to spell things out for them.)-Danteferno

The band supposedly says this is wrong - why? They started as a metalcore band and began playing Swedish styles. How is this any different than the way Unearth, Underoath, As I Lay Dying, Bleeding Through, et all, started? Perhaps this could be further elaborated on by those who disagree with the metalcore affiliation.

Perhaps you would elaborate how do you define metalcore and melodeath, besides the very detailed description "chuga-chuga riffs". You said AILD, Lamb of God and TBDM sound the same, how am I supposed to take you seriously? Your only arguments are that many metalcore fans listen to TBDM (proves nothing) and that they are influenced by swedish melodeath like many metalcore groups (proves nothing either).

And they also began as a metalcore band.

Carcass started as a goregrind band. Sugar Ray started as a hard rock band and later "evolved" into crappy pop-rock. The Exploited started as a punk rock band, now they are hardcore/thrash.

But each band kept parts of their older styles and mixed it in with the newer music.-Danteferno

You still have not explained the difference between TBDM and all the other bands repeatedly listed. And you still have not stated in detail what makes them melodic death metal.

Oh yes I have, but you just didn't acknowledge it. Blast beats, death growls, typical death riffs (between the melodic parts), solos and lyrics. Name one metalcore band that has ALL these elements, not one band for each feature.

I already answered that a long time ago; you have not stated what makes every other American band who uses Swedish Death (and started as metalcore) different than TBDM, because frankly, there really is NO difference.-Danteferno

Also, I'd like to hear your definitions of metalcore and melodeath, and for example what differences do you see between At The Gates and metalcore bands. This could be interesting. They too have those repetitive "chuga chuga" riffs and "metalcore growls" (this is a good one).

The best way to answer your question is to read the article Swede-core (in which TBDM is listed, and I wasn't the one who put them there, further proving that more people don't share your opinion) and then compare that definition to Melodic Death Metal. At The Gates were much more technically proficient in music style with fluid guitar melodies, solos, and experimentation; TBDM is more apt to repetitive tempos and simple rhythms under blast beats, which is quite typical for bands of the Hardcore fold. -Danteferno

Fact is, there are two different opinions for the band, and my article reflects this neutrally; Yours does not. -Danteferno

My article listed all the ties the band ever had to hardcore/metalcore. Yours simply states that some consider it metalcore. If you want to be truly neutral and nonjudgmental, why don't you add "some consider it grindcore, some thrash metal, some nu-metal, and you could probably find a person who would say they play italodisco". Besides why does your article state their category as "Metalcore groups" but not "death metal groups"? Is this neutrality?

No, your article states that they are "wrongly defined as a metalcore band," which is not true. *sigh* Again, this is really going to go nowhere. You're not going to change my opinion, and likely I will not change yours. Yes, to be fair, a "Death Metal" groups template should be placed on the bottom along with "Metalcore" groups, since both classifications are argued. But aside from that, nothing else really needs to be altered or added. The article states that there is a dispute regarding classification and it currently reflects it partially. -Danteferno

Impasse

There will probably be no agreement as to what genre TBDM belongs to, however, 83.24.5.179 has come to a consensus on some things:

• 1.) The band started as a metalcore band.
• 2.) They currently tour with many metalcore bands.
• 3.) Most of their fanbase denotes a metalcore audience
• 4.) The band cites Swedish death metal as a musical influence, common for many metalcore bands.
• 5.) Metal Blade Records called them a "Hardcore-influenced death metal" band in a press release, which I'm sure (know) was for a good reason, and I really don't believe that the Press Relations at MBR are misinformed.

With this in mind, it would be misleading to call TBDM "firmly melodic death metal", as there would probably be some disagreement to call them metalcore as well. Thus, I feel my version is truly warranted, accurate, and neurtral - however, I am open to an "Argument and Debate on Genre" section that anyone has in mind.

Further Dismantling The Claim That TBDM Is Melodic Death Metal

However, their harsh melodic riffage

Bleeding Through, Atreyu and As I Lay Dying (among others) also have "harsh melodic riffage".

They also have blast beats, death growls, shredding solos and palm muted tremolo pickings on the low strings, typical for thrash and death metal. Hardcore, coming from punk, uses more power chords and is generally slower. And metalcore vocals are just terrible shoutingh.

Blast beats? Yes (but so do many other metalcore bands) death growls? (Not really, most of TBDM's vocals are in the form of a shriek and the growls are more metalcore-ish growls) Shreading solos? (Puh-lease. Not in this band. Just the same chuga-chuga riffs like every other metalcore band.)

I see this discussion is pointless, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

NOPE - being that you did not answer any of those points, quite the contrary.

dark lyrics

Lamb of God, All Shall Parish (among others) also have dark lyrics.

yes and they are metalcore as hell.

...Just like The Black Dahlia Murder. How are The Black Dahlia Murder any different than these bands?

Oh yes! How could I not notice this before, TBDM sounds identical to Lamb of God! You got me there.

Nice that you can admit to one thing (in addition to TBDM being more associated with metalcore audiences and touring with metalcore bands.)

and self professed death metal influences

And Hardcore influences, as the band has stated in addition to metal influences.

link/quote please

It's in their press-release by Metal Blade (the one you don't want to

acknowledge.)

Oh you mean the one they say is wrong? BTW, nice going, deleting my question about Miasma and all.

Which leaves us at: METALCORE. There is a large difference when listening to Dark Tranquillity, In Flames and Opeth, and then to The Black Dahlia Murder. That difference is called sound.

Yes, they combine gothenburg melodic sound with american death metal. So that difference is mainly called speed.

WHAT American Death Metal? They sound absolutely nothing like Cannibal Corpse, Morbid Angel, Deicide, et al. Just the same derivative Gothenburg influence that many other metalcore bands use.

Ok, they take swedish melodeath and play it twice as fast. How does that make them metalcore? The only thing they have in common are Gothenburg influences. They first demo was metalcore, and there it stopped. I remember Trevor saying something along the lines of "don't download it, it seriously sucks, that's in the past and we want to forget about it" on their old forum.

You still haven't explained how they are influenced by American death metal.They may say it,but they also seem to say a lot of things, as you seem to be pointing out.You're now admitting that they started as a metalcore band. With that admission, why are you so rear-hurt about including their ever-so-obvious metalcore affiliations in the article? Your silly revert war is taking this absolutely nowhere, so either deal with the article PARTIALLY and FAIRLY balancing out both genres, or find some other venue for your trolling purposes.

Okay, As I Lay Dying is a pretty standard metalcore band, can we agree on this? One argument for classifying TBDM as metalcore is the guitar style. Here is a tab of As I Lay Dying's song "Confined":

D|-----------------|--------------------|-----------------|-------------------|
A|-----------------|--------------------|-----------------|-------------------|
F|-----------------|--------------------|-----------------|-------------------|
C|-----------------|--------------------|-----------------|-------------------|
G|-----5---7-------|--8----10---8-7-3-5-|-----5---7-------|--8----7---8-7-3-5-|
C|-0-0---0---0-0-0-|-----0----0---------|-0-0---0---0-0-0-|-----0---0---------|

Notice how the guitar line "bounces" off of the low E-string, which has been drop-tuned to a C. In addition to the bouncing, all the notes on the A-string (tuned to G) are part of the minor pentatonic scale (C minor, I do believe). This is a tab of TBDM's song "Elder Misanthropy" off of Unhallowed:

Riff 1 (Both guitars)
D|-------------------------------------------------------|
A|-------------------------------------------------------|
F|-------------------------------------------------------|
C|----7-5----------hp--7-5----------hp--------h-------h--|
G|--------8-7-8-7-575------8-7-8-7-575---7-8-78--8-7-78--|
C|--00-0-0-0-0-0-0---00-0-0-0-0-0-0----88-8-8--66-6-6----|

Riff 2
Gtr.1
D|-----------------------------------|
A|-----------------------------------|
F|-----------------------------------|
C|-----------------------------------|
G|--00-000-000-000-5544557788775544--|
C|--00-000-000-000-------------------|

|Gtr. 2
D|-----------------------------------|
A|-----------------------------------|
F|-----------------------------------|
C|-----------------3322335577553322--|
G|--00-000-000-000-------------------|
C|--00-000-000-000-------------------|

In riff 1, the same bouncing off of the low E-string (again drop-tuned to a C) is present, and the notes on the A-string (tuned to G) is based off of the minor pentatic scale in, you guessed it, C minor. Riff 2 showcases more evidence that suggest TBDM be classified as metalcore. Firstly, the "000-000" sections are quick triplets that form the aforementioned "chugga-chugga" sound that was mentioned. After the chugga-chugga, the notes on the A-string (tuned to G), are played at the same time on two guitars forming a minor third harmony. The minor third harmony is almost omnipresent in metalcore, with a good example being Bleeding Through's "On Wings of Lead":

D|----------------|--------------------|----------------|----------------|----------------|
A|----------------|--------------------|----------------|----------------|----------------|
F|----------------|--------------------|----------------|----------------|----------------|
C|7---5-5---3-2-2-|3-------------------|7---5-5---3-2-2-|----------------|7---5-5---3-2-2-|
G|8---7-7---5-3-3-|5-------------------|8---7-7---5-3-3-|8---8-5-5---5-5-|8---7-7---5-3-3-|
C|----------------|----0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-|----------------|8---8-5-5---5-5-|----------------|

This riff is built around a minor third harmonic melody, followed by a chugga-chugga (the "0"s on the bottom string). Also of note is the fact that this song was written in drop-C tuning, just like "Confined" and "Elder Misanthropy."24.245.19.5 07:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

But where it splits from metalcore is the Black Dahlia Murder strong use of "blast-beats" in their drumming and the drumming in general. Any listener can easily differentiate a more Cannibal Corpse deathmetal-like drumming style versus a more hardcore based drumming approach like that of previous bands sighted. We have agreed that they are both metal, by the similiarity in guitar styles, but the Black Dahlia Murder shouldn't not be called metalcore because their style of drumming is not applicable to metalcore. (tymarkdown)

The Black Dahlia Murder's Press Release calls their sound "Hardcore"-influenced

The official band's press release, describing the music: "The Intensity of Hardcore, the hellish stench of death-metal" (That sounds like Metalcore to me.)

Perhaps 83.24.5.179 could explain this to us, as he/she continues to revert anything with hardcore/metalcore out of the article.

"When we started out around five years ago, we had a very different line up to what we have today. In fact, the only people from that line up that remain today are Strnad and I. Back then, our sound was very much like a mix of hardcore and metal. We recorded a demo tape (Consisting of four tracks) with that kind of sound, but that’s when it all ended. Everything since then has been a lot different sounding because we didn’t want to write shit like that any more. We wanted to play fucking metal. That’s actually the first theory behind why people believe we have a hardcore influence. The second theory, and the one we believe has played the biggest part is helping fuel this misconception is actually our record label Metal Blade Records. A lot of the press that Metal Blade Records has been doing over the last couple of years has described us as a melodic metal band that incorporates New York hardcore. I mean that’s so far off left field from the actual truth! But that was our introduction to the world on a grand scale. That’s how they presented the band. So that’s something that we’ve been dealing with ever since! They actually thought that we’re a metalcore band. How funny and ironic is it that a label should brand us as something so off the mark." - from an interview with Brian Eschbach

They think we're metalcore just because we have short hair. You listen to our record, and it doesn't sound like metalcore. - from an interview with Trevor Strnad

So the lead singer/members are in denial of the actual influences and sound of their band, yet they obviously sound like, look like, and have fans that are a part of the genre that they deny. (metalcore/hardcore.) If the lead singer said jumping off a cliff was a cure for the common cold, would you publish that in the article? Reverted back. Sorry. :(

Revert War

This revert war needs to stop. Please complare revert versions between myself and 83.24.5.179. Nearly EVERY review of this band has brought up both metalcore and melodic death metal as the genre,

This is a lie. The first article stub calls them melodic death metal. They have been called melodeath, then death metal, then you changed it to deathcore (which is a made up genre, by the way) then again melodeath. Then you changed it to metalcore and kept reverting it to metalcore after different people corrected your changes and explained why you are wrong."

The "different people" correcting the changes were all anonymous IP addresses begining in "83.24..." that anyone with the ability to start-up a computer would realize is the same person. Do you really think you're fooling anyone? You certainly didn't fool Wikipedia. (And deathcore is not a "made up" genre - there is a Wikipage for it.)

You like adjusting facts to fit your theories, don't you. 68.110.96.207, 198.189.164.206, 206.176.225.221, Paul foord. And don't try to make it a wikipedia vs me war, because right now you are the only one here who ever considered TBDM metalcore or any other -core. Look at the revision history. Also, deathcore was already voted vor removal once. "Death metal with more muted drumwork", please. Soon there will be genres for bands using different tunings, like dropped-d-core, 7-string-core and who knows what else. This is getting ridiculous.

Based on that perspective, "Melodic Death Metal" shouldn't be a genre either, then. Looking at the users you mention, 198.189.164.206 didn't change my edits, and all users Paul foord and 206.176.225.221 did was put a template at the bottom of the page. And I don't really see how 68.110.96.207 was involved with any revert war, either. If you want to know the definition of someone who "distorts facts to fit theories", looking in the mirror would be a first bet. I find it interesting how you responded to this but not the posts above in trying to make the article better; I think this proves that you're here to disrupt and nothing else.

You know what, I suddenly lost interest in this conversation. Anyone interested can read the discussion, look in the change history and draw their own conclusion. Your article is biased towards metalcore, parts of it aren't even true, half of your arguments in this discussion aren't true, but I don't care anymore. Can't be bothered to argue with you and the admin who locked the article. You can congratulate yourself on making Wikipedia a little less reliable.

Nice for you to finally concede. If I was responsible for making "Wikipedia a little less reliable", then you would have responded to each of the arguments which you avoided, versus an invisible "majority rules game", which is not how Wikipedia works, even if these visions were true. Hopefully this will teach you that Wikipedia is meant for civil discussion (not childish revert and flame wars) when there is an article dispute.

and since the Swedish death metal scene has had much influence on many metalcore bands (like TBDM, IMO), there seems to be little rationale in trying to deny or distance the metalcore connection (the music has the same repetitive riffs as countless other Swedecore/Metalcore bands, namely Bleeding Through, Atreyu and As I Lay Dying.) My version says that have been categorized as both genres. 83.24.5.179's version says that they're just melodic death metal, that's that, and that there's no connection to metalcore. 83.24.5.179's motive is most likely trolling, as he/she's version also smacks of obvious NPOV and he/she is unwilling to debate. Danteferno

I have protected the article as it is getting out of hand. Sasquatch讲看 00:20, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

THANK YOU! It looks like it will be protected for a while, as user "83.24.../83.31" is still very reluctant to discuss the matter. -Danteferno

Sometimes called Metalcore, eh?

There is one reason why The Black Dahlia Murder is ever called metalcore and that is pretty much because they tour with metalcore bands. Their music is pure Gothenburg sound, their lyrics involve zombies, and necrophaliacal rape, and they can easily be called an At The Gates sound alike. If you're going to call The Black Dahlia Murder metalcore, you'll have to do the same to In Flames and Carcass. I'm changing the part mentioning metalcore.

unrealshadow13

There are many more reasons than that in terms of why the band has been applied with the metalcore label: 1. Same-ish song structures. 2. Same-ish breakdowns 3. Limited guitar solos (since most metalcore bands rely on punk song structures, which are usually solo-less.) There are some traces of Gothenburg, but like most U.S. bands utlizing the style (Shadows Fall, Lamb of God, etc.) it all comes down to "hardcore" roots. Since there is no firm agreement to either assessment, the version I made works just fine.

Hmm...

"1. Same-ish song structures." OK, I cant argue with that, considering that metalcore has no true song structure. Really, the metalcore article says that "quite a few (bands)...eschew verse-chorus songwriting. Anyway, the Black Dahia Murder use verse-chorus-verse form.

"2. Same-ish breakdowns" Really. I bought Nocturnal, and I have a few songs from Miasma. And for the most part, they dont have breakdowns.

"3. Limited guitar solos (since most metalcore bands rely on punk song structures, which are usually solo-less.)" LOL. Are you joking??? I mean, Of all of the songs that I have from these guys (13, to be exact), guess how many have solos? Thats right, you guessed it, 13. Every single song I have from these guys has a solo!

"There are some traces of Gothenburg..." Some? How 'bout a lot?

"...but like most U.S. bands utlizing the style (Shadows Fall, Lamb of God, etc.) it all comes down to "hardcore" roots." True. Prepare to be Mezmerized! 21:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Unprotected

No substantive discussion. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 08:51, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

14+ Days and Counting...

...since anonymous user "83.24..." has not responded to arguments (below) regarding the band's genre and sustained discussion in trying to work out a neutral article.

Since the majority of Wikipedia edit wars, page blanking and NPOV problems (i.e., trolling) are perpetrated by anoymous IP's, it's now safe to say that "83.24.."'s presence here is to instigate page vandalism, nothing more, nothing less. If the name-calling and other forms of disruption is also not an indication - I don't know what is.

Some facts

FACT: the band did not describe themselves as metalcore. Metal Blade did it, and there is an interview with one of the members explaining why it happened.

And they started as metalcore, and their fans are metalcore fans, and many fans and listeners describe them as metalcore.

FACT: Danteferno is the only person who edited the article to include metalcore/deathcore/hardcore, whatevercore.

Not true.

FACT: several people corrected him (it's all in the changes history, you can't argue with that)

No, Several anonymous IP addresses obviously belonging to the same person reverted the edit.

FACT: Lamb of God, As I Lay Dying and The Black Dahlia murder sound the same to him

They sound the same to a lot of people.

FACT: he recently tried to change Lamb of God's genre to metalcore

Popular opinion describes Lamb of God's genre as metalcore.

FACT: He already had a warning for POV pushing on his user talk page, but he deleted it (it's still in the history)

POV warnings? The only thing on my talk page was requests asking for discussion in trying to write a more neutral article, which you obviously have no interest in. You have basically lied in saying that you no longer had interest in this discussion; now you are back to start more trouble with your anonymous IPs, and still reluctant to engage in civil discussion, but rather childish/immature kid games.

abuse@tpnet.pl

It appears the user ("83.24...") involved in the revert war/spam uses a Netherland's server and is based in Poland. I have sent the provider a formal complaint to the above e-mail mentioning the user's IP addresses; should you find this user was involved in vandalizing other page(s), I encourage anyone else to do the same.

P.S. - in the e-mail, be sure to CC: Wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Danteferno (talk • contribs) 13:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Stop, you're in breach of policy

As an administrator I want to caution editors from following Danteferno's lead and bothering tpnet.pl over this matter, which as a disagreement over musical genre is a perfectly normal content dispute of the kind that is routinely dealt with ever day on Wikipedia. I ask Danteferno to read our Policies and guidelines and take them seriously, particularly:

• Civility
• Assumption of good faith
• No personal attacks

These are not optional or "advisory", they're policies which you're expected to follow. You are not doing so and so you're in breach of policy. Edit warring is also a breach of policy which, in serious cases, can be dealt with by blocking, and I am considering taking such steps. Stop immediately. Both edit warriors, stop edit warring and discuss intelligently over how the band is to be described. Start with what you both agree on (it's a metal group). Both agree to call it a metal group and then work together to expand that description in terms you can both live with. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 20:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

This anonymous user("83.24...") is NOT going to discuss - as you will see above, I have been absolutely open to discussing this matter for some time, and he(?) has been unwilling to, which probably reflects his(?) intentions behind the perpetration of the revert war - distruption. A similar problem has been going on with the System of a Down article - as usual, those who are perpetrating the edit war are anonymous users who have no interest to explain their reasoning for revert/changing a genre, but to disrupt for means of attention. Also, how have I violated Wikipedia's No personal attacks/Civility policy? Have you observed 83.24...'s antics in the history page? I plea for you to look much closer at this situation. --Danteferno 20:45, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Anonymous editors are some of the most valued contributors on Wikipedia, but you have used the anonymous nature of one contributor with whose opinions you disagree to tar him with the brush of "vandal". This is violation of all three policies. Please stop this and stop edit warring. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 20:58, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

If the user is not willing to discuss - and uses name-calling/personal attacks, then what other term would be appropriate? Certainly not "valued Wikipedia contributor", right? I would like this revert war to stop as well - my version most obviously reflects that The Black Dahlia Murder's genre has been under debate, and the article reflects both genres. The "valued Wikipedia contributor"'s version reflects only one genre - which is more neutral? --Danteferno 21:15, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

This "I'm right, you're wrong" stuff has no place on Wikipedia. If I changed the article to say that it's a metal band, would you accept this as an approximation you could live with for the sake of avoiding revert wars while we decide what else it is? --Tony Sidaway^Talk 21:38, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm all for that. I'm still waiting for Danteferno to present some arguments (actually proving they play metalcore, not that metalcore fans listen to them) other than the very detailed "chuga chuga riffs", but I kind of gave up when he said he hears no difference between Lamb of God and BDM. 83.24.38.3 22:18, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I think there would be some neutrality to that. Per the discussions, above, I provided clear and concise facts to "83.24..." as to why they have been categorized as both genres, which was then reverted by "83.24..." to only reflect one genre. As you will see, he never followed up on the points, and from then on, I was the only person opting for discussion (See entry, "Impasse"). Trying to discuss this in a civil manner was attempted many times. --Danteferno 22:35, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

References

Okay, now we have an article that says that Black Dahlia Murder is a metal band, and no reason to edit war. We can now discuss the evidence for puttng them into other, more precise categories without calling one another names. Please let's find some citable references (allmusic.com, rolling stone, kerrang, whatever) for calling them whatever you want to call them. Then we can put those references into the article and the reader can see them and make his own mind up what he thinks. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 22:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

My idea (which reflected in an earlier version) is that the beginning paragraph mention the presence of a debate of genres without being partial to one genre. As you will tell from the conversations above, there was disagreement (from both sides) as to facts/sources provided. Being called "hardcore influenced death metal" in a press release, the band having mostly metalcore/hardcore fans and being called metalcore was not enough for "83.24..."; likewise, "83.24..." pointing out that they were influenced by melodic death metal bands (At The Gates, Carcass, etc.) is IMHO nonconclusive, because the Wikipedia metalcore article explains that many metalcore bands were influenced by the stylings of these bands. Thus, I think it would be fitting to explain: "Their genre has been under much debate, some call them melodic death metal, some call them metalcore, and others reject any subgenre classification altogether." That is my proposal. --Danteferno 23:01, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay, if there's a debate about this, we should find references. Maybe one trade journal describes them as one genre, another one describes them as another. But let's see the references. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 23:46, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

For instance, I'll kick it off. I looked around and found an interview with Trevor Strnad last October:

• http://www.uraniummusic.com/interviews/interview.php?id=74

In that, two key statements stand out for me:

• But yeah, we toured with this band Scarlet – they have this cool Refuse’ish metalcore sound – and their drummer produced both their records and gave them a sound that was heavy as shit. And that’s what we want, really texturous guitars that ooze out of the speaker

and (in another part of the interview)

• So yeah, we’re not compromising our sound for these shows, we’re not metalcore or anything.

So here there is obviously some metalcore crossover, but speaking for himself, Strnad seems to rule out the metalcore label explicitly. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 00:05, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Strnad also spoke out against a press release from Revolver Magazine that described the band as having "The Intensity of Hardcore and the hellish stench of Death Metal." [1]The reason he feels this is wrong is because they began as Hardcore/Metalcore, but then became influenced by Swedish melodic death metal. Yet the masses ask: 1. How could such a transition happen overnight (Elvis Presley may have been influenced by Blues artists, but did that make him one?) and 2.) How is this any different from other bands who went through similar transitions but are popularly labeled as metalcore, such as Atreyu, As I Lay Dying or Bleeding Through? --Danteferno 00:55, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

This is great. We now have two sources in which Strnad makes explicit statements about the band's sound and how it was influenced by different genres, and how he personally feels about certain labels. How about we try writing a brief paragraph on this page, in which we report Strnad's statements? This would be more informative, surely, than us as external commentators making judgements on genre and then arguing about it. You have the floor, please give it a go. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 01:05, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I added a "Debate on Classification" section which should reflect all arguments/points well.--Danteferno 02:55, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Well my feeling is that it's not a bad start, but it may be giving too much prominence to the question. Perhaps it would be better to describe the band's history--its albums and tours, using the quotes along with other band recollections, reviews etc, to build up a balanced picture of the band. I realise that's asking a lot, but perhaps the current section on the genre could be recast as a description of the band's evolution over time. Just a suggestion. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 02:52, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

The one prob with that idea (don't get me wrong, it's a good idea) is that they're currently not a well-known-enough band. In the case of a group like Metallica, there could have been much debate over their "true" genre, considering 1991-onward was described by many as a completely different style of music, and how 14 years of this outweighed 1983-1988, years which established them as a thrash metal band.

I was reading the Uranium article you found on The Black Dahlia Murder, and in addition to the quotes that caught your attention, there seems to be many instances in the interview where Trevor Strnad also cites listening to many metalcore and hardcore bands. Like the saying, "you are what you eat" - in the sense of musicians, "you are what you listen to", and I think any rational person will find how/why they have been labeled with a particular subgenre. Needless to say, the "Classification" section I made is pretty impartial in this regard, IMHO.--Danteferno 22:05, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay, here are some interviews:

For the fans of Black Dahlia Murder, what does the music on Miasma sound like in comparison to Unhallowed?

I hope that no one would listen to it and use the word "Swedish". I imagine that's fairly easy after listening to Unhallowed. I'm convinced that there's a world of melodic death metal that's not owned by them.

How will it sound to the people who will be hearing BDM for the first time with Miasma?

I would describe Miasma as straight up melodic death metal, it's all rock and roll to me. Everyone has their categorizations and I don't go much further than that. I think melodic death metal is enough to sum it up. Interview with Brian

While it’s not exactly a criticism (Although there are a few that have seen this particular issue as a fault), there also seems to be quite a few some that confuse and mislabel The Black Dahlia Murder as a metal band with hardcore influences (Metalcore in other words), rather than hearing them for what they actually are (Which is straight out melodic death metal).

When we started out around five years ago, we had a very different line up to what we have today. In fact, the only people from that line up that remain today are Strnad and I. Back then, our sound was very much like a mix of hardcore and metal. We recorded a demo tape (Consisting of four tracks) with that kind of sound, but that’s when it all ended. Everything since then has been a lot different sounding because we didn’t want to write shit like that any more. We wanted to play fucking metal. That’s actually the first theory behind why people believe we have a hardcore influence. The second theory, and the one we believe has played the biggest part is helping fuel this misconception is actually our record label Metal Blade Records. A lot of the press that Metal Blade Records has been doing over the last couple of years has described us as a melodic metal band that incorporates New York hardcore. I mean that’s so far off left field from the actual truth! But that was our introduction to the world on a grand scale. That’s how they presented the band. So that’s something that we’ve been dealing with ever since! They actually thought that we’re a metalcore band. How funny and ironic is it that a label should brand us as something so off the mark. There’s some that would say that record companies are not the best qualified to talk about music, and this is one of the examples of why that might be! (Laughs) This is the one i quoted earlier

MU: You guys seem to be strongly tied in with the metalcore scene as well. Musically, 'Unhallowed' is definitely a metal record as far as I'm concerned. What do you think differentiates a metalcore band from a metal band?

TS: I kind of look at metalcore as a dirty word. The metalcore scene is so oversaturated with terrible bands. A lot of bands that are influenced by Swedish metal in the metalcore scene are just committing crimes against humanity with a lot of what they are trying to play. It's just terrible. It's bad harmonies. It's bad stuff. It's bands like that who are making it hard for bands like us. Definitely the difference is that it's youthful. They think we're metalcore just because we have short hair. You listen to our record, and it doesn't sound like metalcore.

MU: It all kind of has to do with who you play with, too. I know some bands get lumped in with that scene as well, you know?

TS: A lot of that has been out of our control. My personal preference would be to play with death metal bands. But, I guess being so young and looking a bit different than what everyone is used to, we get kind of thrown in with the hardcore scene, which caters to younger people. So, that's what happened I think. And another one

You stated Carcass and Phil Anselmo has influences, who else are staple influences on you and the band?

There are hardcore ethic within the band, but musically we are into At The Gates, Carcass, Dissection, all the melodic thrashy stuff that really focuses on song writing and variety. You are what you listen to?

As for this quote:

But yeah, we toured with this band Scarlet – they have this cool Refuse’ish metalcore sound – and their drummer produced both their records and gave them a sound that was heavy as shit. And that’s what we want, really texturous guitars that ooze out of the speaker

He is referring to the _sound_, the production of the albums, not the music.

The best description of the band I found was "core guys playing death metal", it was somewhere in the comments for this review.

In the article Tony Sidaway provided, Strnd seemed to mention liking hardcore/metalcore bands and (held in high regard) playing metalcore/hardcore shows. Since bands of both genres are mentioned, as Mr. Sideway noted, there is obviously sign of crossover that their singer is simply denying (even in the snips you posted here). "One can't have their cake and eat it, too." -- Danteferno 22:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Playing with metalcore bands or listening to metalcore bands doesn't make BDM one of them. It's the music that's important. And their music is (and I quote) "straight out melodic death metal". There are no hardcore elements in it. But we've been through that before. You don't hear a difference between Lamb of God and The Black Dahlia Murder. You can't define what is metalcore about their music.
- Simple punk song structures? Not true.
- Lack of solos? Not true.
- Metalcore vocals? Not true (these are black/death metallish screams, not hardcore shouting).
- Chuga-chuga riffs? I'm not sure what you are referring to, but if you mean riffs built on simple power chord progressions (typical for punk/hardcore), then not true either. I think the only riff based on power chords is in "The Blackest Incarnation", beginning around 2:30.
- Their music is way faster and more brutal than your typical melodic metalcore band.
- How many hardcore bands do you know that sing about cutting up corpses and stuff like that?

You just keep throwing in my face that they play with many metalcore bands and that fans of metalcore listen to them. OKAY THEY OFTEN TOUR WITH METALCORE BANDS, put it in the article if you want, but don't call them metalcore just because of that.

That was not the only reason mentioned in the article. The only sources you're providing about the band is what the band thinks of themselves. Hardly reliable if you ask me. You seem to be ignoring the fact that the frontman (and other members) whilst denying any association with metalcore/hardcore also openly appreciate metalcore/hardcore and mention metalcore/hardcore bands as influences in interviews.--- Danteferno 00:23, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

...there also seems to be quite a few some that confuse and mislabel The Black Dahlia Murder as a metal band with hardcore influences (Metalcore in other words), rather than hearing them for what they actually are (Which is straight out melodic death metal). And give ma a ling to the interview where they state metalcore bands as their influences. Anyway, you didn't even bother to check why Zach and Dave were removed from the line-up. Your numetalcore crusade is getting boring, stop editing bands you don't know anything about.

Interview with Trevor S (vocals): http://www.uraniummusic.com/interviews/interview.php?id=74

On who he's producing/mixing a record with:

"So we re gonna record with Andreas from Scarlet and we're gonna mix at Trax with Eric Rachel. Trax is fucking sick; they did the last God Forbid record, Dillinger, Burn by the Sun."

On metalcore bands:

"Some bands that get labeled as metalcore are actually good, like Between the Buried and Me or The Red Chord."

On his personal direction:

"Metal is what I grew up with, and then I learned about punk and hardcore. But a lot of our ethics, the way we carry ourselves, is more punk."

On a metalcore/hardcore band he has opened for:

"All I can say is, when Terror comes out, they're gonna peel your fucking face off. I don t like a lot of modern hardcore bands, but Terror are great. I hate playing after Terror because they basically blow us off stage three times over, but I love playing after Terror because after I see them, I get fucking excited."

The magazine interviewer's assessment on his vocals, which he confirmed:

"Uranium: The vocals range a lot though, from the death metal growl to an almost hardcore screaming.

Trevor: Yeah..."

Explaining which company will be producing one of the band's EP's:

"It ll be out on Black Market, the new subsidiary label to Metal Blade, run by The Red Chord's Guy."

For a band that wants to distant itself from metalcore/hardcore, they sure seem pretty involved and loving it, doncha think? LOL.

--- Danteferno 01:30, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Dude, you're hopeless. Gofur 16:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

That doesn't answer anything. Danteferno 17:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

But he's right. My band plays death metal, too (not as good as they do, you'd guess), and I listen to metalcore, too. There are a few really good metalcore bands and a lot of shitty ones. But because I say that, I don't automatically play music that is involved with that stuff. I find few metalcore influences in TBDMs music, and about the screaming, you find that in At the Gates, too.. The blastbeats are so heavily used it reminds me of Kataklysm more than of any metalcore band...--84.174.179.112 (talk) 15:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

*Sigh* Here We Go Again.

I find it pretty unfortunate that despite intervention of a Wiki-moderator, one month down the road this whole thing is back as if nothing ever happened.

It is good enough that there was a "debate on classification" section - however, it does no good to remove one set of quotes and replace them with quotes that lean to one direction of partiality. This is what Gofur is doing (I assume he has been involved in this debate all along) with no explanation but insults (above and revision history). Then, it does no good to revert the whole article back to a version that was in dispute.

Before this spirals out of control to nowhere once again, let's work out an arrangement so that the article reflects both arguments fairly. OK? --- Danteferno 18:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

For all that time you failed to name *one* thing hardcore about their music. Band's genre is defined by the music they play, not by what they wear or who they play with or even what they listen to. But you already know that and are just trolling now. So I'm done talking to you. Gofur 07:17, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

If that is the case, then please explain the quotes by Trevor Strnd (above) of having hardcore influences and appreciating hardcore/metalcore bands. Also, see the definition of Internet trolling before accusing others of this term. (The one posting inflammatory messages and disrupting is pretty obvious, and I think anyone can see that.)Danteferno 09:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

What does it matter if members of the Black Dahlia Murder work with metalcore musicians, tour with metalcore musicians, or indeed like the music and are inspired by metalcore musicians? That does not mean that the music they play is metalcore. So Trevor likes Terror. So Terror excite him when he sees them. So what? If the guys from a metal band listened to, enjoyed and were influenced and/or inspired to make music because they enjoy Portishead, would that make them Trip-Hop? No, not unless there was a trip-hop sound in their music. TBDM are inspired by hardcore and metalcore. Yet I dont hear a single breakdown in any of their songs.

Don't waste you time on danteferno, you might as well be talking to a wall. All of that has been said several times before, he just chooses to ignore it. You probably will get a reply along the lines of "so why does Trevor say he likes hardcore, eh? lol stfu nub pwned" Gofur 18:13, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

The Definition of Hilarity

Hilarity (noun) - The fact that supposed "fans" have spent twenty times as much space arguing which genre to put the band in compared to the tiny article that accompanies said debate. JD79 23:04, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Notability

This band is most definitely notable. One should do research before challenging an article's notability. Information can be found on this band on MTV's website, (http://www.mtv.com/music/artist/black_dahlia_murder/artist.jhtml#/music/artist/black_dahlia_murder/bio.jhtml) on Allmusic.com, and various other websites. They are a signed band to a major record label (at least for metal), and have played huge shows such as Ozzfest.

merge band members bios

I propose to merge the bios of all the band members into the main article. The band article itself is short enough to accomodate it and the individual bios all have redundant info on the band. Pascal.Tesson 21:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. --141.209.196.70 02:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

That was me, and I still agree. --LifeEnemy 02:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Deathcore

I changed their genre to deathcore because that genre is basically a combination of the two genres listed before. Theunknown42 21:27, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

what is deathcore? That hasn't been listed as an actual genre.

These guys are deffinately Deathcore, I don't get where anyone gets the idea to put them as "melodic"death metal/METALCORE.

I'm not getting involved with the everlasting metalcore troll-war that ravaged the kingdoms way up above me, but deathcore is something far too new for TBDM. If you manage to wake up and smell the asphault, you may realize a lot of these alleged metalcore bands are really just melo-death/thrash, but with a different fan base and aesthetic. Proof? Fear My Thoughts, Neaera, Hatesphere. The difference between TBDM and aforementioned bands is that their sound was completely overhauled from Unhallowed to Miasma. Listen to Closed Casket Requiem on Unhallowed, then skip over to Miscarriage on Miasma. That's quite a trip on the genre map. I bet if Trevor stopped his incessant bitch screams and focused his throat on the grunts, and then grew out his hair and toured with Arsis, they'd be receiving kudos from all the self-proclaimed metalheads of the world. But back to deathcore, no. Deathcore molests Grind and Brutal Death Metal the same way Metalcore did Melo-Death. That might turn into its own can of ass in a few months...

What they look like doesn't determine their genre, so your arguments are basically irrelevant. I didn't even know what the guys looked like; I only ever listened to their music, and I can aggree that I do indeed *hear* metalcore in this band's style, so deathcore seems like a valid tag. Zaruyache (talk) 15:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully this ends the discussion (although I should add that this discussion page is in dire need of a clean-up.). The band isn't deathcore. Never has been. Still isn't. Since "Miasma" they've just been an American melo-death band, and a quick listen to actual deathcore (See You Next Tuesday and Whitechapel come to mind) makes that really clear. I take into account the fact that a lot of you can't aurally discern the difference between genres and aren't actually that informed on the discussion, but its not that hard to understand. Their early work was metalcore (or at least metalcore leaning towards melodic death and without breakdowns, which used to cause controversy 4 or 5 years ago when "Unhallowed" came out.), but until this band starts putting breakdowns in their music, which they've made no hints of doing, there's no discussion on this. Also, the reference for this genre inclusion isn't reputable. Trevor said nothing about deathcore, the newspaper did, and that's not enough to be revisionist about the band.Karen_Carpentry (talk) 01:49, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Your entire paragraph is based on your own personal opinion. Wikipedia is not the base for one-sided partial opinion, only fact backed up by references. Please see earlier discussions: this matter has been discussed and closed already - many times.--Danteferno (talk) 02:37, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I didn't ask you. Its a discussion page so I utilized my wanton fucking ability to discuss. Happy that you decided to chime in and say something less important than my opining here, though. You aren't Wikipedia, and I've been on this site just as long, if not longer than you so please spare me the robotic chastising and flaunting of your e-dick.Karen_Carpentry (talk) 19:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

But the thing is, no one cares what you think. On Wikipedia, we cite what is said in the article to reliable sources rather than deciding for ourselves what is right. --Kmaster (talk) 00:50, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Apparently you two do, though. Plus, this is the talk page, not the actual article, so your attempt at a point is moot. Move on. Your quoting of wikipolicy in a vain attempt at being clever is cute, though.Karen_Carpentry (talk) 07:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Melodic Death metal

You are all forgetting where Death metal came from. PUNK. Therefore there is always a hardcore sound coming from ALL death metal bands. The vocals in TBDM are a notable death metal vocal style called a "Death Shreik". Typically used in Black metal, some notable Death metal shrieker bands are : Exhumed, Carcass and Dying fetus. and btw , I know the three bands i just mentioned are grind influenced, then again, so is death metal in general.

Another reason that makes TBDM is the drums. Typical Metalcore bands, actually all metalcore bands do not use the fast blast beat as used alot in death metal.(the blast beat i mean is showed in this video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2Kty-X6JMc )

Some do use blast beats, but only rarely, and the drums in general are usually much less brutal than BDM. I actually heard a metalcore band use the phrase "shitty metal blast beats" once, the dumbass. But, in the end, "melodic death metal/metalcore" is a perfect discriptor of BDM. --LifeEnemy 02:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Death metal came from thrash metal, which came from heavy metal. --84.174.179.112 (talk) 15:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

thrash metal : Speed metal + hardcore punk + NWOBHM (heavy metal + punk rock) --Kmaster (talk) 00:50, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

THE BLACK DAHLIA MURDER

I would have to disagree with the posting of The Black Dahlia labeled as a metalcore band. Although I do not listen to metalcore nor do I listen to heavy metal, nu metal ect., I will say that I do know for sure that they label themselves as a death metal band. I know this because I have friends whom are very close to them and are very good friends with them. I will have to add another comment about their stats and where they are from. They are not originally from the city of Detroit, but they are actually from Waterford, MI. Waterford happens to be quite far from Detroit. It is about 30 minutes (highway) from Detroit. That happens to be a significant difference when you come from the suburbs of Detroit. Considering that this is a very informative website, I will have to let you understand that you should probably get your facts straight. Hootergrl123 20:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)Hootergrl123

"I will say that I do know for sure that they label themselves as a death metal band." I could play the banjo and sing and then call myself a Blues musician. But at the end, does that make me a Blues musician? Fear Factory once called themselves an extreme "alternative (rock)" band. Does that make them an alternative rock band? --Danteferno 15:08, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Tell them what you label them as and I guarantee they will say "you are retarded". In fact, this subject was actually brought up in regard to Ozzfest in which a band was excited that they were doing to be the first death metal band to play in Ozzfest and Brian (guitarist-B.D.M) was disgruntled by that statement. Considering the fact that Brian liked the band who said it, he didn't take it to heart. I believe the people whom are the makers of their songs and sounds pretty much know what they are. Leave it to them to decide in which they already have on their Myspace page.69.14.165.254Hootergrl123

We all know that. All you have to do is convince Danteferno to leave this article alone. Gofur 13:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, User:LifeEnemy and User:AKnot have also argued or edited the page to keep "metalcore" in as one of the band's genres [2][3]. Your repeated "tirades" against me have gone on way too long. There were already repeated citations from interviews of the band (above) that reflected association with the metalcore/hardcore genre - an administrator pointed this out to you - and all you have done is flung around insults. I think consensus stands about this "dispute" - fact overrides personal opinion. --Danteferno 14:52, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

NOT METAL-CORE

Shai Hulud is Metal Core. You Kids must be very very young to think of Black Dahlia Murder as Metal Core. Black Dahlia Murder sound like they come from Gothenburg. Just because they used to have breakdowns, and have some breakdowns in their intros doesn't make them a metal core band. Fugazi have Dub parts, doesn't make them a Dub band. One site calling them Metal-core does not mean they are. My Chemical Romance is reffered to as Post Hardcore by Guitar world, where everyone else calls Post-Hardcore music like Queicksand and Fugazi, are they Post-Hardcore because Guitar World says so? End of discussion. --Killingthedream 07:02, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't matter too much what you say here, since the Metalcore entry was sourced and you have presented no reliable sources stating that they are or aren't. ----Wildnox(talk) 07:10, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE

What happened to Black Dahlia Murder's official website?

It was removed. AKnot 04:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

duh

look them up on myspace.

THRASH / METAL / DEATH METAL

pretty sure that's what it says. i haven't looked at it in a while, so i might be wrong. a

anyway, that's what you guys should put as their genre. common fucking sense.

• But MySpace is limited to particular specific genres so they would have to put it since it would seem close to melodic death metal and metalcore. Also pay attention to the links since on the artist box since it shows the genres and also includes proof of why is it so. Also when I listened to them earlier today, I don't hear any thrash elements but melodic death metal and metalcore. MySpace genres are not reliable. When reading this, try looking at the other sections with proof they are melodic death and metalcore.

One more thing; Why rely on MySpace for that?

AKnot 03:10, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The artists' opinions on their music's genre is totally irrelevant. They might call themselves thrash, but just because they *want* to be called thrash doesn't mean they *ARE* thrash. Look at AC/DC; they hate the heavy metal tag and always say they are just rock, even though most everyone finds different. Zaruyache (talk) 15:15, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

New CD?

Anything making this claim soild or is this just a false ray of hope? if it is false, please remove it from the main page MetalBladeX4 21:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

It can be false but someone mentioned that in an recent issue of Revolver is that a new album is coming out. Do you think this should be removed until more information comes? AKnot 23:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

removed untill there is a proper citation MetalBladeX4 03:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

New Wave of American Metal?

i have yet to see them referred to as such. does anyone have a source for this? Mgfcmartinez 03:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you read the New Wave of American Metal article, it's specifically about bands like The Black Dahlia Murder who combine melodic death metal with metalcore. I have never heard The Black Dahlia Murder being referred to as melodic death metal and yet that is listed in the article without a citation, maybe I should remove that too according to your reasoning for removing New Wave of American Metal. --Leon Sword 01:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Added citations for melodic death metal. The thing is, the New Wave of American Metal article itself lacks sources. It just refers to the A Headbangers Journey movie. If you could show me the part in which they called TBDM part of the new wave of american metal, and show me another website that acknowledges that then i'd have no problems with it being added. Mgfcmartinez 10:53, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I just noticed that you cited www.metal-archives.com, and you might not know it but you can't cite that website. You must provide reliable sources and www.metal-archives.com doesn't qualify because any user can edit the information listed there. Find a better source. --Leon Sword 22:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

New Album

They have announced that the name of their new album will be nocturnal. It was posted myspace, and apparently mtv.com . Could somebody add that into the article?

Blackened Death Metal

Wouldnt these guys be blackened death metal? I mean, the singer shreiks and grunts, just like in black/death.

Vocally, yes. Content wise. No. Vocals doesn't really give enough proof. Sorry. NaotoATG 06:08, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

But now, I found a source to back me up. :D Prepare to be Mezmerized! 01:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The "screams" are traits of hardcore, not black metal. The vocals are more "yapping" than screaming. If you really think this has traits of black metal, you obviously haven't listened to much of the genre. Zaruyache (talk) 15:17, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

You kidding? Hardcore punk vocals are more shouting than screaming. It has more in common with punk. --Kmaster (talk) 16:52, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:TBDM Logo.png

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BetacommandBot 04:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Blackened Death metal pt. 2

I remember that I suggested that the Black Dahlia Murder was blackened death metal, and now, I found a reliable source to back me up:

I remember that Allmusicguide had a review on Miasma:

The brutal murder of 22-year-old Elizabeth Short, aka the Black Dahlia, in Los Angeles in early 1947 went down in history as one of the most gruesome and shocking crimes of the '40s. The United States was, generally speaking, a more innocent, less jaded country (at least on the surface) in that pre-Manson Family, pre-Hillside Strangler, pre-Night Stalker era — and Short's mutilation horrified a lot of Americans. Any band that would name itself after Short's killing is obviously fascinated with dark subject matter, and shock-value lyrics are quite plentiful on the Black Dahlia Murder's second full-length album, Miasma. This 2005 release is a perfect example of a U.S. recording with a very Scandinavian sound; BDM are from Detroit, but their bombastic death metal/black metal assault is greatly influenced by the extreme metal bands of Sweden and Norway. Miasma is hardly the only 2005 release that combines death metal and black metal elements, but the way BDM handles the vocals — although not innovative — is noteworthy. There are two extreme vocal styles on Miasma — death metal's deep, guttural growl and black metal's high-pitched rasp — and throughout the 33-minute disc, the growl and the rasp interact in a duet-like fashion. Wherever the growl goes, the rasp is never far away (and vice versa). The growl and the rasp are so integrated on Miasma that BDM never really shows a preference for either death metal or black metal; the Motor City residents show an equally strong appreciation of both and do so with consistently Nordic-sounding results. This harsh, blistering sledgehammer of a CD falls short of remarkable, but it's a decent (if somewhat uneven) effort that is worth checking out if one holds Scandinavian-style death metal and Scandinavian-style black metal in equally high regard.

There we go. Prepare to be Mezmerized! 01:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

"death/black metal" doesn't mean "blackened death metal". Cannibal Corpse, Morbid Angel, Death and other bands are labeled "black/death metal" on Allmusic and those bands are not blackened death metal. Allmusic simply puts death/black metal in the same ilk. Also, please see earlier discussion, plenty of sources point out to the band being metalcore as well as melodeath, --Danteferno 14:40, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Hang on:

"Blackened death metal (also called "death/black metal" or "black/death metal"...)"

That is a direct quote from the blackened death metal article. So, that means "death/black metal" and "blackened death metal" are the same. Also, even though AllMusic might classify death and black metal in the same ilk, take a look at this: Miasma is hardly the only 2005 release that combines death metal and black metal elements. Combines death and black metal elements... hmm... blackened death metal, maybe?

Unfortunately, that metalcore part is sourced now, so I cant take it out. :( But the blackened death metal part is sourced, as well, so DONT TAKE IT OUT!!! Prepare to be Mezmerized! 01:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

But the blackened death metal article isn't sourced as to how the genre's alternate definitions are "death/black metal" or "black/death metal". Bottom line, raspy vocals don't black metal make. (Carcass used raspy vocals, but were they black metal?) It has also been long established here that melodeath/metalcore is TBDM's genre(s).--Danteferno 14:40, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Once again, you forgot to read this: Miasma is hardly the only 2005 release that combines death metal and black metal elements. READ!!! COMBINES DEATH METAL AND BLACK METAL ELEMENTS!!!!! THAT IS BLACKENED DEATH METAL!!!!!!!!!! Case closed.

Oh yeah, and my blackened death metal thing is sourced. Your "opinion" says that the Black Dahia Murder arent blackened death metal. But reliable sources overrule your opinion. Case closed. Prepare to be Mezmerized! 02:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

No it's not, you used an opinion from an AllMusic.com album review, which is not a valid reference of information according to WP:CITE. A Google search on "the black dahlia murder black metal" shows no connection between the band and black metal [4]. In addition, you haven't sourced how death/black-black/black = blackened death metal. In fact you haven't done anything but push your POV on this article, like some anons and vandals previous to you. Please stop trying to override consensus. --Danteferno 05:31, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

"...like some anons and vandals previous to you." WHAT!? DID YOU JUST CALL ME A VANDAL???!!! TRYING TO COMPARE ME TO ANONS AND VANDALS!!!??? AT LEAST I HAVE A RELIABLE SOURCE TO BACK ME UP!!! AND AT LEAST I DONT CALL YOU NAMES!!! Remember, NO PERSONAL ATTACKS!!!!!

"In fact you haven't done anything but push your POV on this article..."‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›  YOU GOT A SOURCE FOR THAT ???? CHECK THE HISTORY!!!!! IVE DONE MORE THAN "POV PUSH"!!!!! ANYWAY, I USED A SOURCE!!!!!

"...you used an opinion from an AllMusic.com album review, which is not a valid reference of information according to WP:CITE.""

WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT!!!!! WHERE!!!!!!!!!! AND ACCORDING TO Wikipedia:OR, "opinions... that have already been published in a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia.. RIGHT!!!??? AND WHERE THE DOES IT SAY THAT ALLMUSIC ISNT A RELIABLE SOURCE???!!! WHERE!!!!!!!!!!

AND READ THIS: Miasma is hardly the only 2005 release that combines death metal and black metal elements. READ!!!!! COMBINES DEATH METAL AND BLACK METAL ELEMENTS!!!!! THAT IS BLACKENED DEATH METAL!!!!!!!!!! OKAY!!!???

But sadly, through all of this debating and name-calling (Danteferno), I might change my mind about the Black Dahlia Murder and blackened death metal. Prepare to be Mezmerized! 20:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I took out all of the F-bombs (there were 37 of them). Yeah, you pissed me off by calling me a vandal.

I didn't call you an anon or vandal, I said that anons and vandals were doing the same thing as you previously. You misread. (Just as you misread the Allmusic.com "citation", which is also not a valid source of info - it's an album review!) If some album reviewer on AllMusic.com called Pantera a "death metal" band, does that make Pantera death metal? An AllMusic reviewer even compared Tool to thrash, death metal and grindcore.[5]

That said, are you truly serious about using Allmusic.com as a reliable source of info? (In addition to your source not even calling TBDM "blackened death metal", quote un quote?--Danteferno 21:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

"I didn't call you an anon or vandal, I said that anons and vandals were doing the same thing as you previously." All right, my bad.

"(In addition to your source not even calling TBDM "blackened death metal", quote un quote?) No, but its blatantly implied.

"That said, are you truly serious about using Allmusic.com as a reliable source of info?" I was, until I read the below part...

"If some album reviewer on AllMusic.com called Pantera a "death metal" band, does that make Pantera death metal? An AllMusic reviewer even compared Tool to thrash, death metal and grindcore.[6]" Ouch. That might have been the kill shot. And anyway, that part about Tool is just sad.

All right, you win. That thing about Tool is something I cant counter. BTW DONT SAY I WAS HERE TO CAUSE PROBLEMS! Prepare to be Mezmerized! 23:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

P.S. What about Deathcore? Thats basically melodeath + metalcore, which is the Black Dahlia Murders two genres.

TBDM are NOT metalcore; I don't care what source backs it up. There's no metalcore qualities in their sound. They don't even have breakdowns. 75.86.243.170 01:15, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that, too. But as I said earlier, reliable sources overrule your (and mine, in this case) opinion. Prepare to be Mezmerized! 03:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Those sources should be overruled because they were talking about the first EP and the first album which had one song with metal-core elements. If we are to go by that, then Cave In should be called a Math Metal band because of the first album even though they became an arena rock band. They are melodic death metal. There is no Metal Core in their sound anymore, there was hardly any in Unhallowed and that was years ago --Killingthedream 16:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Why does someone think 1 website equates to fact. THEY ARE NOT METALCORE! The band themselves think it's ridiculous someone could even think they are metalcore. All their fans and the band themselves say they are melodic death metal. Metalcore is stuff like Shai Hulud and they don't sound like them at all.--Killingthedream 16:17, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I see no point to repeat myself to another person who won't review what has already been discussed.

Read over the talk page; The band plays and caters to both genres. The band admits to metalcore influences, Metal Blade promoted them as metalcore ... just because you don't think they sound like Shai Hulud they have nothing to do with metalcore? Please. Leave the genre(s) alone. --Danteferno 20:58, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

But you still havent answered why TBDM isnt deathcore - basically a fusion of TBDMs two gnres. Prepare to be Mezmerized! :D 00:20, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

If my record label promoted my band as "dogpoobumface", does that make my bands genre "dogpoobumface"? Sorry, but record label's labelings arent always right. This is one case. Prepare to be Mezmerized! :D 00:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

"dogpoobumface" isn't a genre of music. Whatever genre a label promotes a band as, there has to be an underlying reason. In the band page itself, there's so many things that connect the band to metalcore that there's almost no point even discussing this anymore. (Example: BDM has had many metalcore drummers in their line-up, now the former drummer of All That Remains; the vocalist confirmed in an interview that he uses hardcore singing, etc.). It seems the more people don't want the band connected with "core", the -core facts just come back and bite. --Danteferno 14:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The Metal-core tag was promoted for Unhallowed which was back in 2003. Bands change, they are not Metal-Core. If you can't see that then you need new ears. There is NOTHING Metal-core about them, the most recent album should be used as the example of what music they play and the last 2 albums were Melodic Death Metal. Your logic makes no sense, the band plays Melodic Death Metal and because they played something in the past or have a certain element does not make them that genre. If that was true then The Dillinger Escape Plan is a Math Metal/Jazz band, how do you argue against that. You know little about music. --220.245.134.232 06:44, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Their myspace classifies them as 'Death Metal / Metal / Thrash' No metal core in there and their influences. 'Carcass, At the Gates, Darkane, Dissection, Morbid Angel, The Haunted, In Flames, Dimension Zero, Iron Maiden, Metallica, Megadeth.' Any metal core there? Do you know the band better than they do? --220.245.134.232 06:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, you haven't read the previous discussion. Please read what has already been gone over, then come back. Don't blank CITED info on the page as that may constitute Wikipedia:Vandalism.--Danteferno 14:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I think we can have metalcore in the infobox because:

• reliable sources state they are metalcore
• the band agrees they have hardcore influences
• band members play/have played in (other) death-/metalcore bands
• they will tour/have toured with death metal/metalcore hybrid bands (The Red Chord, Job for a Cowboy, Lynchmada and others)

They clearly are part of metalcore/hardcore scene and the death metal scene. They are one of the modern bands that fuse (melodic) death metal and metalcore. Kameejl ^(Talk) 15:55, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Vocals

The main page states that Trevor switchs back and forth between screaming and death grunting. I have seen them live and the guitarist does the grunting backup vocals. In their album linear notes for at least the last three albums it cites the guitarist as a vocalist as well. I do not wish to make any edits as I am not as familiar with wikipedia as I should be so could someone look into this? Thanks.---- 12.154.68.210 (talk) 18:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

DEATHCORE?

ok THE BLACK DAHLIA MUDER ISNT IT DEATHCORE? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.229.170.7 (talk) 22:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Well having both melodic death metal and metalcore can consider them deathcore. 24.23.57.81 (talk) 07:26, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Deathcore is generally a sound that involves death metal and hardcore, and not melodic death metal. It's not a fitting title. DeathRattle101 (talk) 08:21, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

No, Deathcore is metalcore (not hardcore, you guys always use this term: metalcore/hardcore, totally diferent genres!) with strong death metal influences. Or just any kind of Death Metal+Metalcore. Listen to Bring Me The Horizon, metalcore+death metal, and now Postmortem Promises: melodic death metal+metalcore. I dunno if TBDM should be called deathcore, yeah, they're a death metal band, but their riffs are totally metalcore, anyway, Melodic death and metalcore is just fine.--Jpkmaster (talk) 16:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

• [7] Not Deathcore. Alot of you aren't very smart.Lokri (talk) 00:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Not Metalcore

• Here is an excerpt from an interview with Trevor Strnad in which he responds to a question about genre[8]:

" I've always said that we're melodic Death Metal. We are mostly influenced by Swedish bands and Carcass. The heavy end of our sound is the American style creeping in, with some Floridian influences like Morbid Angel, Malevolent Creation and that kind of stuff. We've been labeled more often because of our look than our sound, which is dumb, and speaks volumes about what kind of geniuses are out there!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.69.215.76 (talk) 00:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• In the article cited for the metalcore classification, the band tries to distance themselves from their "metalcore" demo and joke about how they are no longer metalcore.
• For those referring to Amazon.com reviews as evidence for classification--you're right! Amazon.com is the defacto authority on metal! You got me there!
• Reading the discussion in-depth it seems like Danteferno doesn't have a clue. All I see are articles quoting the band as saying that they are "not metalcore" outside of their demo. It seems that everyone has just been outlasted in an Internet fight by Danteferno. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.69.215.76 (talk) 00:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the "Hardcore-influenced Death Metal" tagging originated from the band's label, Metal Blade, not Amazon. Second, the sources referring to the band as metalcore in the article are neither from Amazon or Metal Blade. You're somehow only reading the previous discussion the way you want to read it. (For instance, there's also an interview except where the singer states that they do have a hardcore/punk influence - how is that explained?) Please review the talk page again, and come back only when you read everything. Otherwise, don't keep wasting everyone's time here. --Danteferno (talk) 01:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Cannibal Corpse has hardcore/punk influences in their music--breakdowns. Call them metalcore. And from reading the discussion above I now know that many other participants refer to you as something akin to a "brick wall". You cannot tell the difference between Lamb of God and Black Dahlia Murder. Why exactly you took implicit ownership and interest in this article without being able to tell the difference in those sounds is beyond me. You obviously have more free time than me to spend on this article--time for me to go. Good luck with the metalcore thing. 208.69.215.76 (talk) 01:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Has nothing to do with "good luck", because consensus has already been reached by a group of individuals, not just myself. Thank you for conceding this argument --Danteferno (talk) 01:28, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

band picture

Am I mistaken or isn't it against wikipedia policy to not use professionally taken photos in display articles ie: the metal magazine pic of the band? I'm thinking that that pic shouldn't be used.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.36.114 (talk) 00:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

If it's free, we use it. 96.234.65.135 (talk) 02:25, 17 October 2008 (UTC) Jack Bauar