Talk:St Patrick's Cathedral, Dublin/Archive 1

2003 posts

So the convention in England is different than that in Ireland? Why is there a full stop after "St", unlike at St Paul's Cathedral? --Jiang 00:03, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hiberno-English invariably uses Mr., St., etc. To be honest most users of British english I know also do so. The statement on wikipedia that periods are not used after 'Mr', 'St' etc in British English is IMHO highly questionable. FearÉIREANN 00:21, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I agree that saying that full stops are not used after abbreviations in British English is somewhat dodgy. In formal work, they do tend to be used.

However, this comment is about the Order of St. Patrick page. It is redirected to the cathedral page, and yet it is linked to at the bottom of that page. Said scheme does seem rather silly. Someone ought to get around to writing an article about that chivalric order.

I will make a start on doing so. David Newton 23:50, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

non semper ea sunt quae videntur?

According to the Catholic Church's St Mary's Pro-Cathedral homepage there is only one true cathedral in Dublin, and it isn't St Patrick's. Neither is it the principal Catholic church in Dublin. They are explicit on this. The only true cathedral in Dublin according to the Catholic Church in Dublin is Christ Church Cathedral, Dublin. This is an extract from the Pro- Cathedral homepage:

Why is St. Mary's called the 'Pro' Cathedral? "Visitors to the church frequently ask why it is called a Pro-Cathedral. It came to be known as such in the 1880s and it was Dr Walsh [Archbishop of Dublin from 1885 to 1921] who confirmed the use of that title. St Laurence O'Toole, second Archbishop of Dublin, rebuilt and enlarged Christ Church and it was constituted by the Pope at the time as the Cathedral of the Holy Trinity. In the seven centuries that have elapsed since then no successor of St Laurence has asked for that decision to be revoked. Until that happens, St Mary's will continue as the mother church, but without the full title of 'cathedral' of Dublin".

- Extract from St Mary's Pro Cathedral Dublin by Dermod McCarthy, published 1988 by Eason & Son Ltd, Dublin (Irish Heritage Series: 60)

"The use of the title Pro-Cathedral was sanctioned by Archbishop Walsh [Archbishop of Dublin from 1885 to 1921]. No one, in the seven centuries that have elapsed since the time of Laurence O'Toole, recognized any church in Dublin except that which the saint re-built and enlarged, which he sanctified by his presence and his prayers - Christ Church, the Cathedral of the Holy Trinity. Only the Pope can constitute a church a cathedral. A Pope had constituted one cathedral in Dublin and no successor of St Laurence asked for that decision to be revoked". (my emphasis) - Extract from Dublin's Pro-Cathedral by Mary Purcell (1975)

Source: http://www.procathedral.ie/information.htm

Well, what's the other side of this story, and should the above be in this article? 89.100.195.42 18:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm a Protestant, so I don't really care what the Pope says. I am curious, however, as to what the historical justification for St. Patrick's being called a cathedral actually is. Has it something to do with the historical Diocese of Glendalough? Does anybody know?GSTQ 05:38, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

St. Patrick's *was* properly elevated to the status of Cathedral, with its own Dean (an office which only exists for cathedrals) and there were centuries of tension between it and Christ Church, leading eventually to the current formula. And no, nothing to do with the former Diocese of Glendalough, which was simply integrated with the Dublin Diocese, its canons increasing the numbers at Christ Church. Kildare was also integrated, and was only removed in 1976, when it was merged instead with the Diocese of Meath.

The process happened sometime after 1191, when John Comyn, first Anglo-Norman Archbishop of Dublin, elevated one of the four Celtic parish churches to the status of a collegiate church, i.e., a church with a body of clergy devoted to both worship and learning. The new collegiate church fell outside the City bounds, and had its own territory. The charter of 1191 was confirmed by a Papal Bull (Pope Celestine III) in the same year. Comyn's successor, Henry of London, was elected by both the chapters of Christ Church and St Patrick's and this election was recognised by Pope Innocent III. There is no precedent for a two-cathedral city, and some believe it was intended that St Patrick's, a secular (regular clergy, not members of an order) cathedral, would replace Christ Church, a cathedral managed by an order. No resolution was found and the situation persisted, with two catedrals, each possessing the rights of cathedral of the diocese, until the disestablishment of the Church of Ireland. 194.237.142.6 11:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Why not given back?

Why was the church not given back to the Catholic Church when Ireland became independent? --80.121.103.244 00:44, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

The state couldn't do it. The Catholic Church didn't ask for it and the Church of Ireland didn't offer it. There was no demand to do it. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 00:46, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

There are some who believe that the Church of Ireland is more true to the original ethos and theology of the original Celtic Church and so there would be no reason for the "ownership" of the building to be given back ie. you can't "give back" what you have always owned. Plus it was useful as a symbolic tool for some of the majority to use to increase the sense of grievance against the perceived enemy within (ie. non-RCs). You also seem to be confusing the state with the RC church which are not one and the same Albatross2147 01:55, 24 December 2006 (UTC)