Talk:Spartan ivory plaque with ship

Title

• (Copied from the Classical Gr & R proj talk)

The title of this article is weird and should be changed, but I don't know how. I'm not even sure it's notable enough; it could be merged into Sanctuary of Artemis Orthia. Any idea? T8612 (talk) 20:55, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Agreed that it looks very strange (Might it be a student assignment?). Concerning that it has apparently been around for so long! The existence of the Pridemore article/note and the various sources it cites make it likely that the item is notable. According to that piece it is "by far" the largest ivory item found in the sanctuary of Orthia and is important as an early Greek depiction of a sea-going vessel. Commons has an image of the object here [1]... but I can't seem to find any common name for this object, so something like "Ivory plaque depicting a ship (NAMA ####)" might be best (where #### is whatever its National Archaeological Museum inventory number is - Pridemore doesn't give it).The other references on the wiki page are all taken over from the Pridemoore article. The relevant page numbers are: Casson p. 50-53 [May not actually be relevant], Dawkins 1929, pp. 203-215, Morrison & Williams, p. 83. The original publication is in Dawkins "Excavations at Sparta, 1907" BSA 13 (1906-1907) 1-136, but Pridemore doesn't give a page reference. Furius (talk) 21:47, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Certainly notable. Spartan ivory plaque with ship would be better - it was the only one found at the site. It could be merged - there's a section on votive offerings. Johnbod (talk) 01:28, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the topic appears to be notable. Lots of individual archaeological artefacts are, even ones which like this are sufficiently obscure that they don't really have a common name. I agree that the current article name isn't great, and think Johnbod's suggestion of Spartan ivory plaque with ship would be an improvement. An alternative would be to use whatever the NAMA catalogue number is, which has the disadvantage of being obscure to lay readers, but the advantage of unambiguously identifying what we're talking about to experts.

My concern with merging this to Sanctuary of Artemis Orthia would be due weight. Currently that page has only 373 words in the entire section on votive offerings, and doesn't discuss any specific objects, but rather broad classes of object; adding 250 words on a single specific object would significantly skew the coverage. For all of the problems with having bitty little articles on individual objects, I don't see in this case that a merger doesn't create more problems than it solves. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:05, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Fine. Johnbod (talk) 15:05, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I suggest the title Artemis Orthia Sanctuary naval plaque, because the object seems strongly associated with the sanctuary, so it's probably better to add it in the title. We can perhaps add the NAMA number too. T8612 (talk) 14:41, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

"ship" is better than "naval", but neither is good for searching. Absent similar objects with articles, we should not put the number in the title. Johnbod (talk) 15:05, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Would merging to Sanctuary of Artemis Orthia really unbalance an article that's about 2,400 words long, excluding references etc? To put it another way, if everything was already in the votive objects section there, would we think the sanctuary article improved by moving the plaque content to its own article, or would we see that as diminishing the significance of the sanctuary and prefer keep its finest item? Also, at first glance, the Sanctuary article much more clearly passes the generic WP:GNG test by having a number of sources specifically focused on the subject, while the plaque only seems to have one. NebY (talk) 15:19, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

At least 2, as it gets good coverage in excavation report. I'm neutral on merging. Johnbod (talk) 15:46, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I think it does make sense as a separate article - Morrison & Williams' piece (and Pridemore's) supports the claim that it's an important object for naval historians, not just for people interested in the Orthia sanctuary. It also appears in Hampe and Simon 1980 Birth of Greek Art, 223 fig. 358 as "The Abduction of Helen" and in Maringou Lakonische Elfenbein- und Beinschnitzereien (1969), but I cannot find the page. Since it doesn't seem to have a standard name, I think the two neutral suggestions: "Spartan ivory plaque with ship" and "Artemis Orthia Sanctuary naval plaque" are good. The former seems slightly preferable. Furius (talk) 20:44, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I'll let this run for a day or two, then move it. Actually I'll copy all this to the article page - all further comments there please. Johnbod (talk) 22:33, 14 June 2022 (UTC)