Talk:Sonic X-treme/Archive 1

Archive 1

CulT joke

Well, It has been announced that it was a joke about the prototype… so that's that --FlareNUKE 00:50, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Sonic 3D model uploaded

they are in the sonic directory, in dxf and 3ds format. [1]

Cancelled → Unreleased

Okay fine, this will be my final attempt and this is my argument: If it was cancelled in devolopment or simply unreleased but finished makes no difference in the "Released" section. If it were asking if it were Cancelled or not, then it would be valid. But it's asking for the release date. Which the answer to is: "It was not released." --FlareNUKE 06:38, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion

Move to Sonic X-TREME? --FlareNUKE 23:16, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Opposed, due to Wikipedia title standards, and the fact that nobody I've ever seen capitalizes "X-treme". By the logic that the letters are in capitals, well, then we should move every Sonic game title to versions with nothing but capital letters (SONIC THE HEDGEHOG CD, SONIC ADVENTURE, SONIC RUSH, et cetera), because I don't think there's ever been a lower-case letter in Sonic logos. --Shadow Hog 23:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

GIF?

Where can I find the GIF mentioned in the article? 24.158.134.254 02:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Project S

What happend to project S?Themasterofwiki 19:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

It's still in the works. No idea why that section is gone, though. It may not have been a Sega-licensed game, but it's still headed by Chris Senn. 208.101.129.217 13:18, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Well thats good I really would like to help with Project S how can I help? Themasterofwiki 17:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussing that here is pointless, try Chris Senn's forum instead! [2] -- Stormwatch 13:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Prototype to be made public?

Article at "The Sonic Stadium".
Forum thread at "Sonic Hacking Forum".
Has been proved legit by a member who is both a member of The Sonic Stadium and Sonic Hacking Forum.
Is said to be released via Torrent on the 18th of July 2007. This valuable information for the article here?

_~~Neo 2.3 Hylan 12:16, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

-- It was supposed to been released in 7/18 (the same date of the game build) but one of the donators (who got the game early) leaked a copy two days before. It's legit and is released by assemblergames.com. Also the screenshot for the game is from an incomplete emulator that shows graphics wrong, somebody may want change the shot. Here's one from a more complete emulator that has no graphical bugs. http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8696/00000116hb3.png

It has been released, and is available on several torrent sites. I have it running on my Saturn as I type this. It's extremely unimpressive, as it's just an early build and really a tech demo. You can't go very far, and it's missing sound effects. Cool to have/see, though.

Also, please sign your name using four tildes (~) when you post, per wikipedia etiquette. 66.245.41.79 07:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)kazuo

Sonic Robo Blast 2

I found a similar game to X-treme for PC, is a fan project. It is also in 3D. Just search for it in the web. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.160.4.193 (talk) 18:37, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

What about Robo Blast? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.71.47.212 (talk) 02:43, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

What about it? It's an unofficial fan game unrelated to this game. (Also, for the record, you were responding to 3+ yr old comment...) Sergecross73 msg me 12:36, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

It's already mention in the DOOM WAD article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.71.51.113 (talk) 17:58, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Move to Strike

This is gamegruft at its most bizarre: a huge article going into intimate details, with little- to no sourcing, on a game that for all intents and purposes does not and never will exist. 24.6.244.61 (talk) 21:03, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand this game and specially it cancellation has played a capital part in demise of the Saturn outside Japan and ultimately in the stepping back of SEGA from a hardware manufacturer to a 3rd party game developer, some people may end up reading about X-terme's cancellation being a big impact on Saturn and may turn up to wikipedia in order to get more info about this. Also it is a very often cited as the school example of "development hell" (together with the other ultra-famous never released game - Duke Nukem Forever - which has an even longer article despite never having been released). As these few games are the most typical and most widely cited example, an article detailing the "development hell" of X-Treme has a reason to exist on Wikipedia. On the other hand, there isn't actually a specialised wiki for Sonic stuff (as there is MarioWiki for its concurrent, or as there are Memory Alpha and Wookie Pedia for the biggest fan-attracting space series of history) so for now there aren't any other good place where to store this data. So wikipedia still seems to be the best current place for this. But, besides, it would benefit from adding a few more references. DrYak (talk) 19:33, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, there is a specialized wiki for Sonic stuff. Their Sonic X-treme article needs some serious work though. --Aurochs (Talk | Block)

I didn't knew about that one. Some collaboration between the two wikis could be cool. Some of the details would probably at a better there with a nice "for futher informations" link here. Are there any motivated editors ? DrYak (talk) 23:20, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The "Versions" section is full of grammatical errors and typos.

Should I remove it or fix it?

Notability

A short Joystiq article [3] and full coverage by IGN [4] I believe establishes a minimal amount of notability. MuZemike 21:35, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Fan game

I need to know the story for this,add a selection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.71.51.195 (talk) 20:58, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at, but this article is only about the official game that was being developed, and subsequently cancelled, by Sega. Information about some fan game is not notable by wikipedia standards, and doesn't belong in this article. Sergecross73 msg me 13:21, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

But where is the plot? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.71.51.195 (talk) 18:35, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

There is a section literally titled "Story". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_X-treme#Story). Sergecross73 msg me 13:48, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Wow I did not see that,okay this story is perfect for my Sonic X-treme fan game remake..~Tailsman67 of the Wikia~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.71.51.195 (talk) 20:43, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

6 Rings

Are the 6 rings the chaos rings? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.71.51.195 (talk) 20:41, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

It says "Rings of Order". It doesn't explain what that really is, and I've never heard of "Chaos Rings", so I really have no idea. Honestly, the makers of this game probably didn't know either, as the article and many sources have said, the "story" really was just a rough draft idea thrown around to magazines who needed something to write about. It was very tentative and not thought out yet. Sergecross73 msg me 21:01, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Really,0_o the Chaos Rings form Knuckles's Chaiotixs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.71.51.195 (talk) 21:04, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Oh right, those. No, they wouldn't be the same then...>_> Sergecross73 msg me 23:22, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Sonic Mars things

I got two things to say.

(1)Are Sonic Mars and Sonic X-treme the same thing,just one is for Mega Drive and the other is for Saturn?

(2)And Sonic Retro has a screen shot of Sonic Mars you can add to this page if you want. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.71.51.195 (talk) 21:01, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

The article clearly states the relationship between Mars and Xtreme. Mars was the version of the game that they started for the 32x, but then scrapped it and restarted it on the Saturn. Sergecross73 msg me 23:24, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Spelling of the Name?

Chris Senn prefers "Sonic Xtreme" as opposed to Sonic X-treme, so I believe the article name should be changed to reflect his intent. 67.214.26.212 (talk) 19:37, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but the official box art that the game would have had, shows it as it currently is. I think the official box art trumps Senn's informal spelling of the game on his blog... Sergecross73 msg me 20:07, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

If I recall, the logo was always changing and the box art isn't anywhere close to final (though it was the last they went with before cancellation). I think Chris Senn's word overrides that, given that he was the game's top co-director and has consistently used this spelling. I also cannot find the exact link, but I'm fairly certain he went on record to say his spelling is a conscious choice when someone asked him if it's X-Treme, X Treme, Xtreme, Extreme, etc. 67.214.26.212 (talk) 22:17, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, you're going to have to add some better proof than "I think he might have said this one time..." type stuff. As it is, we've got official box art by Sega that have it as "Sonic X-Treme", and then there's lots of reliable sources calling it this as well. (Such as Nintendo Life's article or IGN's article.) Sergecross73 msg me 20:06, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Alright, doing a quick Google search reveals his FAQ, in which he lists other names but never lists alternate spellings. Again, I would trust his word above else because he is the co-creator, and from what I understand stylized logos aren't considered prime by Wikipedia. I wouldn't consider his consistency incidental. I know he went on record that his spelling is a conscious choice, and if that's what you really need then I'll just have to dig it up. Thing is, it's probably an obscure quote or the page might not even exist anymore. I bet he's not terribly hard to reach though, given that he has an open forum. (By the way, one of your sources calls it "Sonic X-Treme"). 208.101.153.138 (talk) 02:36, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't bother digging it up.

1. Again, Sega's official cover for the game trumps anything that a developer puts up years later on a personal blog. He may have done much of the work on the game, but the official source on it is still Sega. Sega owns the game, and is the final authority of this game, not Senn. It'd be different if this was the article for his cancelled fan-game continuation or whatever, but that's not the main topic of this article.
2. Wikipedia policy keeps us from titling it something like "SONIC EXTREME" (WP:ALLCAPS) or "$onic ExtReme", (WP:MOSTM) but no policy goes against it's current spelling, such as the use of hyphens, or what is technically proper capitalization.
3. Again, reliable sources use the current title.

The title should not be changed. Sergecross73 msg me 13:02, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

So you're saying that it really wouldn't matter even if I found this source of clarity? As a rebuttal for each point: 1) Sega NEVER released this game. Their staff has come and gone in the days since its cancellation. Sega did not and does not even care for this game since it will never generate profit, all things considered. Given this, there is ABSOLUTELY no better source than one of the higher-ups who actually poured his heart on this game. 2) That would be relevant if that were the case. 3) I'm sure there have been different spellings used by official sources. I'm not saying Sonic X-treme was never used by the marketing department - obviously, it had to be. Thing is, official marketing sources at the time can be just as self-conflicting as the rest of Sega's old internal affairs (ever read the Sonic Bibles?). Basically, it seems that it mostly amounted to an artist spicing up the stale logo of the preliminary artwork with a hyphen, and most people remember it as that and went with it. At any rate, I admit creating an account just to ask this silly question is inane, but I will deliver if only to stop this misconception. 208.101.153.138 (talk) 17:22, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if Sega "did not and does not even care for this game". Their degree of caring does not affect whether or not they are the final authority of the game. Sonic is their property. He is owned by them, it is their call to make. Senn was just one of a number of developers within the company, and is no longer affiliated with the company at all. His comments from his personal blog have no authority here. Even beyond Sega being the highest authority, on Wikipedia, you're supposed to stick to what Wikipedia defines as a "reliable source". In this instance, Sega or IGN qualify. Personal blogs are largely are seen as unuseable. I was going to suggest that maybe Sonic Fansites or Wikias would be more interested in your thoughts and theories, but even major fansites like "Sonic Retro" and the "Sonic Wikia" use the current spelling. Sergecross73 msg me 18:12, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to see which Sega representatives of yours write, "Oh yeah, it's definitely Sonic X-treme," over even just "Sonic X-treme" period given that they don't even talk about the game. If the current staff do reference the game, they probably just cut and paste what's popular or what the fans call it. A lot of the sources deemed "reliable" are second-hand or even third-hand. The fact is that Chris Senn IS the primary source, as he not only voices his intentions as co-creator but also is in touch with the fandom. Also, using fansites and wikias as (sneering) evidence to keep the current spelling isn't sufficient - I've seen that they've been confused as to which spelling to use as well. I figure Wikipedia is probably the place that made it uniform. Might as well start at the top. 208.101.153.138 (talk) 18:59, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Look, I don't know what to tell you other than that's not how things work around here, for the reasons I already stated above. The current form is far more commonly accepted, and your theory relies too heavily on "probably's" and "maybe's" as far as to why it's currently spelled this way. There's currently no consensus to change, and so for now, it won't change. Sergecross73 msg me 19:58, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Project AXSX

Are any of you aware of the ongoing resurrection of Sonic X-treme? Titled, project AXSX, it's goal is to finish the game by using leftover data and additional support from none other than Chris Senn. I look forward to seeing the complete game. User 06 Lover Neo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.39.178.156 (talk) 18:55, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I've heard of it. It shouldn't be mentioned in the article unless reliable sources are reporting on it though, and we shouldn't be discussing it here as long as its not in the article, per WP:NOTAFORUM. Sergecross73 msg me 20:43, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sonic X-treme/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: JimmyBlackwing (talk · contribs) 04:08, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I find this game fascinating, so I'll nab this review for myself. Comments below.

Prose

• The first sentence says that Sonic X-treme is a canceled game, but it's standard to put discussion of canceled games entirely in the past tense, as seen in Sam & Max: Freelance Police (FA) and Voyager (video game) (GA).
  • Interesting precedent, reworded.
• I know prose is less of an issue at GAN, but the second sentence's "looked to capitalize on the success of Sega's mascot character in the form of what would have been" desperately needs to be condensed. Try, "was designed to capitalize on the success of Sega's mascot character by being".
  • Used your wording, thanks.
• "there were several different forms of gameplay being created" —> "several different styles of gameplay were tried".
  • Used your wording, thanks.
• "incidents including an unfavorable visit by Sega of Japan executives and issues with acquiring a game engine made the deadline much more difficult to achieve" —> "incidents, including an unfavorable visit by Sega of Japan executives and issues with acquiring a game engine, made the deadline difficult to achieve".
  • Used your wording, thanks.
• "The two are" — Again, it would be "were". Media or artifacts considered lost are discussed in the past tense. This goes for the rest of the article as well; if anything in X-treme is discussed in present tense, change it to past tense.
  • This would be the first "cancelled" project I've ever worked on. It's been rectified.
• The Mike Wallis quote in section 1 is too long. Either break it up with paraphrasing or move it out of the prose with Template:Quote box.
  • Used a quote box. I'm actually surprised how much nicer it looks.
• "designed for released" —> "designed for release".
  • Whoops. Fixed.
• "Sonic Mars[4] after" —> "Sonic Mars,[4] after".
  • Comma inserted.
• "in charge of developing the main game on a PC" — I don't understand this. All video games are developed on computers. Is this intended to mean that it was developed for PCs?
  • Yes, Sega ran a PC games division at the time. Sonic the Hedgehog CD is an example of a video game that had a PC release as well as a console release. I've changed it to "for PC".
• Also, all instances of "PC" should be changed to "Windows" (or Mac, if applicable). PC is slang, and it's very rarely used in WPVG articles in the GA-FA range.
  • I would presume that Windows was intended to be the OS used, but not one single source I have explicitly says that. Is that still okay? All of the sources just say "PC", which I'm well aware is a generic term.
    • "PC" and "Windows" are generally considered interchangeable, in my experience. Sources shouldn't be a problem here. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:19, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
      • Addressed. Red Phoenix ^{let's talk...} 21:19, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• Second Wallis quote in Development has the same problem as the one mentioned above.
  • Again, quote box added.
• Chris Senn is still alive, but that isn't made obvious in the article until the next section. Should probably be mentioned earlier.
  • Added a dash statement which should add some clarity.

Sources and images

• FURs look fine on the first two images.
• Second image seems excessive. We've already seen the game, and this doesn't seem to add anything in terms of understanding the prose.
  • Question for you here: I agree it could be a bit excessive, but in this case the two images are from the two different game engines. The first is from Senn and Alon's engine for the "main game", the second is from Coffin's "boss engine", which is made heavy mention of in the Development. Would there be precedence to move it up and expand the FUR to explain this?
    • I think that would be appropriate. Change the description of image #1 to clarify its engine, too. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:19, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• What makes Lost Levels a reliable source? Any reliable sources using it as a reference? Written by one of the designers? I'm not a stickler when it comes to source reliability, so even a little bit of backing for this source will be enough for me.
  • It's published by Frank Cifaldi, an established video game journalist and writer for 1UP.com. Also cited by Ken Horowitz at Sega-16.
    • Works for me. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:19, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• Ditto for Sega 16.
  • Published by Ken Horowitz, established video game journalist. Source has previously been okay in past FA/GA articles I've written. Has been cited in publications such as Retro Gamer.
    • Seems solid. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:19, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• 1Up links are dead.
  • This seems to be an unusual problem they have at 1UP; their links go dead and come back to life with some regularity. Hopefully they'll come up soon enough so I can get a text archive saved (note: robots.txt prevents a WaybackMachine archive, but text archivers work when the site's up), which I've done before. If not, I'll rework the material.
    • And just confirming: according to 1UP's Facebook page, posted last month, they're committed to preserving their material but some links have been broken while the transition to archive all of this is taking place. Should mean it'll be back soon; if not, it can likely be found in another location, which I'll search for if necessary.
      • Very well. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:19, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• Why should a forum post from "Senntient.com" count as a reliable source?
  • In this case, this is Christian Senn's site himself, one of the programmers for Sonic X-treme, and the post is actually his, from his account. As such and in its use here, it should fit under WP:SPS, and it's only being used to cite that he cancelled the project to revive the game; the post is his announcement.
    • Forum posts are extremely mediocre sources, but I'll let it slide since this is GAN. If you take this article to FAC, I strongly advise you to replace the source, or to remove the discussion of the remake's cancellation entirely. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:19, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
      • I would agree, though for now I don't see it as any different than a Facebook or Twitter announcement from a band or anything like that. Not ideal, but at least workable for the time being. I'm not sure I'd like the idea of dropping the mention of the project's end entirely; it serves to reinforce that X-treme is very unlikely to ever have a playable version. Red Phoenix ^{let's talk...} 21:19, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• What makes "WebProNews" a reliable source?
  • I'm not sure there's anything specific here, but they do have an editing staff and are published by a company called iEntry Network. It's not adding much, so it can be removed if you think it won't work.
    • I'd say cut it. Just change "Many journalists" to "Several journalists". JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:19, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
      • It has hit the cutting room floor. Red Phoenix ^{let's talk...} 21:19, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• Scanning source #6, I see a lot of room for expansion, but I don't think the article could be failed here for comprehensiveness issues. Something to consider if you're going to FAC.
  • It will be. Having read a few of the sources, there's a LOT of detail and varying accounts of why Sonic X-treme failed; if I do take it to FAC, it will be a consideration.
• Spotchecks:

• Regarding "levels appeared to move around Sonic", the word "appeared" makes it sound like this was an illusory effect, which isn't in the source. Aside from that, good.
• "Nakayama requested the entire game be reworked around the boss engine" — Good.
• "While early development plot lines included a story based on the Saturday morning cartoon series" — Source says nothing about multiple plot lines designed to follow the cartoon series. It states only that the game started off as an adaptation of that series. Definitely iffy, but it looks more like an attempt to unify the paragraph thematically than foul play. Change it to be closer to the source and I'll ignore it.

• ... foul play? Confusing... part of the issue here may also come from my elimination of another source which expanded into detail about that, but I am fairly confident it was an unreliable source and haven't found this anywhere else. I've fixed this. Red Phoenix ^{let's talk...} 13:46, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

• Foul play as in intentionally fudged sourcing. Looks fine now. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:19, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

• "Even at this stage [...] settled on a full 3D platform game" — Good.

The article is on hold until these issues have been addressed. Good work so far. It would be great to see this as a GA—or potentially a FA, if you expanded it and strengthened a few of the dodgier sources. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 04:08, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I'll take a tighter look at this later, for the mean time I'll post a couple of responses above. It's late where I'm at and I have some sleep to catch up on. Red Phoenix ^{let's talk...} 05:17, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

All right, think I"m ready for more feedback now. @JimmyBlackwing: whenever you're ready. Red Phoenix ^{let's talk...} 13:55, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Just a few more points to address. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:19, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

@JimmyBlackwing: I think we're good to go here. Red Phoenix ^{let's talk...} 21:27, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

New source

• Webster, Andrew (February 25, 2015). "Long-lost Sonic game revived after nearly two decades". The Verge. Vox Media. Retrieved February 25, 2015. {{cite web}}: |archive-date= requires |archive-url= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

@Red Phoenix  czar ⨹ 23:13, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I was meaning to update the article myself, as Game Informer or Eurogamer covered this as well. Sergecross73 msg me 23:41, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks. I'd seen this news, but not from any reliable sources yet. Tezero (talk) 21:23, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I've added it to the article, though I used the Eurogamer source I referred to earlier, as the Verge one wasn't loading for me. If that source mentioned anything else, feel free to add it if it starts working again. Sergecross73 msg me 17:19, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

czar, that's a pretty neat find. I'm not on Wikipedia a whole lot at the time being, but I may yet revisit this article in the future. Not to mention, of course, that as a Sonic fan I may now have to look that up and see if I can get my hands on it. It's a little intriguing considering Christian Senn himself gave up on trying to put together a version. Red Phoenix ^{let's talk...} 01:40, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2015

please unprotect it Maia8888888 (talk) 12:36, 9 June 2015 (UTC)please do it, make me edit this page and i will watch it

No. You are part of the reason its protected in the first place, for removing sourced information in favor of outright hoax information, like you did here. (Assuming you are Maiathebest7878787878 as well.) Sergecross73 msg me 12:44, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

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Revisions and push for FA status

Pinging @TheJoebro64: and @Dissident93:

Hi guys, and thanks for stopping by. I see we're having a bit of a tussle over the lead section, and truth be told, I haven't edited it yet since but I also have some disagreements over how we're handling it. Shall we talk it out here? I really appreciate the two of you swinging by to make this article a success. Red Phoenix ^talk 00:19, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

My only disagreement is the "mid-90s" generalization. I just think it's kind of vague since it's imprecise, and saying when it began and ended is more in line with our other canceled games GAs/FAs. I saw your post at WT:VG and have been trying to give the article a bit of cleanup (like this). JOEBRO64 00:26, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

I second your position on the "mid-90s" bit, and apologies to Dissident that I have to express that, but I think "mid-90s" is a bit ambiguous when we consider we had a generational shift in video games during that time, including during the development of the game--the console shifted three times in development of this game, no less. I'm not sure I agree with a 4-paragraph lead, however; I'm okay with more details from the Premise section in the lead (which was WP:TNT'd as part of the rewrite) but I'm just not feeling like it flows the way it is with 4 paragraphs, regardless of whether or not the MOS allows for it. Red Phoenix ^talk 00:39, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Trimmed to three paragraphs again. JOEBRO64 00:47, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

I still think the opening sentence could read "in the mid 1990s", with the exact years in another sentence below. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 04:49, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Development section headers

Are they really needed? They are a bit overall detailed and only include two paragraphs each. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:28, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, they're rather short now I've given the article a haircut. We could probably merge some of them at least. Popcornduff (talk) 03:09, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed them. Before the article was given a "haircut" as you call it, they were quite long and felt uncomfortable without headers. Red Phoenix ^talk 03:52, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Source

• https://web.archive.org/web/20020814101534/http://videogames.gamespot.com:80/features/universal/graveyard/saturn10.html
• https://web.archive.org/web/19970419014608/http://www.next-generation.com:80/news/082396a.html

Image caption

According to the caption on the image at the Legacy section, "With X-treme's cancellation, the Sega Saturn had no original Sonic the Hedgehog platform game". Why does this matter? If the Sega Saturn has an original Sonic game, it's Sonic R. Yes Sonic R is more racing than platform, but it's still a Sonic game. 172.250.44.165 (talk) 23:33, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

"Sonic the Hedgehog platform game." Popcornduff (talk) 23:44, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, this. And that matters because it was one of the major factors for the Genesis/MD success, and the Saturns’s failure. Platformers were one of the most popular genre at the time. They were a bigger deal than they are nowadays. Sergecross73 msg me 00:34, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

A note on "Boobowski"

So, this was challenged and reverted recently. A heads up: the name "Boobowski" appears in the Game Players source "Sonic's Red Shoe Diaries - Part 1". For those who think it's an obviously fake name, Sega's tried this stunt more than once. Just some food for thought. Red Phoenix ^talk 02:47, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Chris Coffin is actually Christina Coffin

Not sure why some of the articles about this game say Chris Coffin, but there was no Chris Coffin on the project - Christina Coffin was the lead programmer. There are other sources indicting this as well. Given the mystery of this game, it’s not a surprise there might be some confusion. Toa Nidhiki05 21:24, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

• A shorthand name still doesn't make it wrong. Nether of these two links you provided count as reliable (per WP:VG/RS), so you'd need one that is in order to change it. Does the game itself lack credits or something? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:26, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
  • I think so. All that exists of it nowadays are a few prototypes, which to my understanding are pretty rudimentary. Who we credit seems to be based on developer interviews. JOEBRO64 21:34, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
    • The issue I mean here is that the article identifies Coffin as male in multiple areas when she is in fact female. To my knowledge it’s not a trans or gender transition thing, I just think a lot of people saw “Chris” and assumed “male” when researching this. Toa Nidhiki05 21:36, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
      • True, but we'd need to source it with something better than tssznews and Sonic Retro. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:37, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
        • Let me take a look for the Game Players references in the next couple of days; there was a journalist there with the team who interviewed Coffin as well as others. I’ll see what that source says precisely, but I don’t recall Coffin being female. As a side note as well, on the other end of things, “Chris” in Chris Senn is short for Christian, not Christopher. Red Phoenix ^talk 21:55, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
          • This is archived from the website of Chris Senn, one of the game’s designers. Clearly identifies her as “Christina Coffin” and does so almost exclusively. Christina Coffin’s LinkedIn also lists her as employed at Sega from 1995-98, which coincides with the game’s development. Toa Nidhiki05 21:59, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
            • That works. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 22:29, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
• Time out. Game Players’ 1996 article (specifically, Part III) calls Chris Coffin “him”. There is a direct quote from Mike Wallis in his interview with Edge, also says Coffin left “his” apartment. Are we sure this isn’t an issue of a gender change later on, since sources from the period and actively meeting with the team members themselves, as well as Coffin’s producer on the team, refer to Coffin as he? Red Phoenix ^talk 22:53, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
  • That’s certainly a possibility. I had only uncovered this issue today so I’m by no means an expert in the area but it is certainly perplexing. It might be worth contacting Senn or Coffin to clarify. Toa Nidhiki05 22:57, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
    • Trust me, I’d love to hear from Coffin on way more than just that. Much as this is a featured article that comprises the best research I could do on the subject, there are gaps in the story in far more places that the sources just don’t cover, and I suspect it’s because it might uncover some bad blood given how political things were during development (Mike Wallis, for instance, said that the art director taught his team to hate the designers and programmers, but another article from Game Players said Senn was the lead art director, though he calls himself a designer). Of course, that’s all just suspicion, but speaks to what more there is behind the story. Red Phoenix ^talk 23:05, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
      • I get you, had similar issues on Lego Bionicle: The Legend of Mata Nui. You might be interested in this video, there are actually new interviews with Mike Wallis here. IIRC he went over the organizational issues in more detail (specifically the problems with organizational structure). I believe he also mentions more about Ofer Alon being difficult to work with because he worked from home on a PC instead of on the Saturn hardware. The whole video isn't RS, but the Wallis segments probably are. Toa Nidhiki05 23:21, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
        • I was just about to link that video when I saw you had posted it. Aside: Sega's work environment was also pretty crappy in the '90s in general, not just in corporate politics. I heard that the Sonic 2 prototype that was on Nick Arcade, one of the most important pieces of the game's development, was found in a Dumpster. Scratch that, that was SegaSonic Bros. JOEBRO64 23:38, 21 January 2020 (UTC)