Talk:Skuld (Norn)

Requested move

Skuld (Norse Mythology) is one of the three norns in Norse Mythology also Skuld (Scandinavian mythology) is a princess of Norse mythology, additionaly Skuld (Oh My Goddess!) is an anime/manga character. I feel Skuld should be a disambig page. -- Cat ^chi? 00:31, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

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Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

• Support as per arguments posted above -- Cat ^chi? 00:31, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
• Extreme pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcaniconiosic support!Disclaimer: This vote is not intended to be offensive. Additionally, this vote should not be used for controlling operations at a nuclear power plant, bank, airport, or hospital. You may not sue me in a COURT OF LAW in Trenton, New Jersey, for any damages this vote may cause you. --Phroziac^(talk) 01:54, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
• Extreme Phroziac support! -- (☺drini♫|☎) 02:55, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
• Disturbing Tentacled Cephalapod Support; seems reasonable, if the three are more or less equally important. --Maru (talk) 05:42, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
• OPPOSE, since I am the one who actually wrote about the princess and the Norn. The princess is not notable at all.--Wiglaf 07:17, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. The goddess from Norse mythology has obvious primacy; the Japanese manga character is derived from that. In addition, the history of the original article should be restored to its original mythological topic. Uppland 08:13, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose, trust Wiglaf on this. — Davenbelle 11:05, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. The original phenomenon should, in most cases, have primacy over derivatives. - Haukurth 11:31, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. As Wiglaf said, the princess is a minor character, and as much as I like animanga, it's just to much fancruftism to give the Oh My Goddess character equal weight to her mythological predecessor. --Salleman 14:58, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

  I am not suggesting equal weight. There are more than one referances under the same name and hence it will cause problems. Skuld (anime char) was fused into this article before I arrived.

  For the sake of the argument, think of someone looking for the Norse mythology pricness, skuld, up on wikipedia. He/she will end up with a norse mythology character thats not the one he/she is looking for. This will minimise conflusion. -- Cat ^chi? 16:49, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

  I find it highly unlikely that anybody would actually search for the Skuld (Scandinavian mythology) as she is such a minor character, but I believe that a note at the bottom of the lead section such as "The norn Skuld should not be confused with ..." could be in place. What it basically comes down to is to try prophesize what option would minimize the number of clicks on WP. I believe that to be the current line-up. --Salleman 18:20, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. The Norn is the primary usage of the term; the other usages are a very minor mythological figure and a fictional character who was named after the Norn. -Sean Curtin 00:48, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
• Opposed, with great amusement: P.MacUidhir 08:31, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
• Opposed. The anime-Skuld is cruft. The norn-Skuld is not. / Peter ^Isotalo 07:30, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. Dragons flight 01:28, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

I really think we cannot talk about which one is the better disambiguation. Yes the japaneese manga character is derived from the norn also an unrelated princess exists there is no reason to have a primary dismbiguation. All 3 are fiction and I do feel more people care about the anime than mythlogy. And for mythology we have at least two diferent mythology chars. The anime is vaguely based on the original. I do not think the original norse poems take place in japan in the modern era.

USS Enterprise if you look at it is not a disambiguation. The original USS enterprise was a much much more older ship than the one we have today. Also in Enterprise youll see a list of "fiction" ships. Lets do a sanity check. How likely is it that a person is looking for lets say the norse mythology character (norn or princess), the anime character? By this logic criket insect came before the criket game.

-- Cat ^chi? (Cool Cat) 13:44, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Cool Cat, I am leaning towards you suggestion. However, I would like to see some "neutral" people to vote. That is, people who are neither from Scandinavia nor anime-fans. //Fred-Chess 20:48, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I am not from Scandinavia and I am not an anime fan (although I very much like Miyazaki's films). I do believe that the primary term — mythological — should be used here and that the anime character is not very notable. Skuld (disambiguation) is the appropriate place for disambiguation. — Davenbelle 05:31, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

If you want to ask a "neutral person" (by your definition) who knows something about Norse mythology, you could ask User:Pádraic MacUidhir.--Wiglaf 20:55, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Nope. I'd prefer a person who has no specific knowledge of either Norse mythology nor anime. //Fred-Chess 21:29, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Oops, then you and I put our trust in very different kinds of people.--Wiglaf 21:31, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

If Skuld gets a disambig. page, then I have a large wagonload of suggestions for disambig. pages elsewhere in Wikipedia-land. To my thinking, this is interesting (in a "I cannot help but smile" sort of way). If I were pressed to give a practical reason to oppose this idea, it would be this: an anime critter is an ephemeral part of pop-culture that will be shortly forgotten. It would merit a page here, but one with a clearly descriptive title. Skuld, in the sense of the Norn as well as a concept for the heathen worldview, past and present, has persisted for over a thousand years. Granted, I am biased in this judgement of the relative value of each interpretation of the word, but the contrast drawn here demonstrates to me at least that a disambig. page would only be misleading in the long-term by granting long-term value to an anime entity on a par with Skuld the Norn. *That* is what is making me smile at the moment. I am neither Scandinavian nor an avid anime fan, if those qualifications are relevant to the discussion at hand- Vampire Hunter D is a fun film, but I surely would not give it an equal place of value alongside Bram Stoker's Dracula, if I may be permitted a loose analogy.

I respect what Fred is saying, though, that a truly neutral and ignorant judge (or judges) might be useful in helping to decide the matter since many of us here are at a minimum interested in mythology or anime, rather than both, and our opinions will be coloured by those interests. In sum, I support his desire that completely neutral parties be asked to give their opinions on this debate if a few can be persuaded to come here and do so. Davenbelle's simple comment seems to me to be the most likely result, and probably the least offensive to any particular faction, so if this ends in a stalemate, I vote for Skuld (disambiguation) rather than Skuld itself being the disambig. location. It already exists, it follows common Wikipedia conventions for disambig. pages, and it is less ambiguous compared to Skuld as a disambig. page. P.MacUidhir 08:31, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Older Discussion

I have restored the page. However, through some strange database error, the previous version was lost, and I have had to restore it from scratch. My deepest apologies for any loss of information. Concerning User:Coolcat's decision to rearrange the pages concerning the Norns and the Valkyries I hope that he has understood from the vote on Talk:Valkyrie that most people think that the original mythological meaning comes first.--Wiglaf 10:42, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

The old version is not lost, but was submerged by the mangacruft and moved by User:Coolcat to Skuld (Oh My Goddess!). If you look in the history of that article, you will find the original, mythological article. I tried to restore that article to its original content (see Talk:Skuld (Oh My Goddess!)), but was reverted by Coolcat. I suppose a history merge may be in order. Uppland 13:45, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Firstly read: User_talk:White Cat/Archive/2005#Skuld. I thought this matter was settled. This was done LONG beofre valkarie move.

There are two mytological Skulds. That automaticaly warrants this be a diambiguation page since both are equaly significant.

I also ask you to respect my work more rather than coining it as "mangacruft". Thanks. -- Cat ^chi? 17:39, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Since I wrote the original article, I think I am entitled to ask you that you at least file a requested move first. Please file such a request and I will accept the outcome.--Wiglaf 17:49, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Wiglaf asked me to explain why I think like Cool Cat. I do not agree with primary disambiguation unless there are only two articles, or if one of the choices is extremely more notable then the other. It's also for this reason that i'm strongly opposed to giving the manga article primary disambiguation. And by the way, I didn't notice at the time that this would be controversial. Sorry. --Phroziac ^(talk) 17:51, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

1. Skuld, one of the three norns in Norse Mythology.
2. Skuld, a princess of Norse mythology.

Forget anime, just these two, which one is more notable? What makes norn more notable than pricness, both are mythology. -- Cat ^chi? 18:05, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

The princess Skuld only appears in a single context, the killing of Hrolf Kraki. Moreover, there is no agreement on whether she was half-elven or human, or if her father was the Swedish king or the Danish king. The only notable thing about her is that she married Heoroweard. She is as obscure as royalty can be in Norse legend, and I only mentioned her in the original article as a curiosity. Oh well, I did mention her in the article on Elf as well, but I guess her mother should be more notable as an Elfish woman.--Wiglaf 18:12, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I am convinced in Valkarie the move was inaproporate, but here there is a different case.

It is POV as I see it to see Norse Mythology more notable than Scandinavia mythology. Skuld (Norse Mythology) isn't notable enough to be the primary disambiguation.

Think it this way, if one searches for the Skuld (Scandinavia mythology), they will read about (Norse Mythology) entry. This causes a level of confusion. -- Cat ^chi? 14:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Coolcat, Norse mythology and Scandinavian mythology are the same thing.--Wiglaf 14:28, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I know that. I was reverencing to the disambig titles. I may agree that the Norn is more notable than the princess but I dont think its notable enough to warrant to be the primary disambiguation. -- Cat ^chi? 22:22, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Skuld is not Skuld

According to the other Wikipedias (fe. german and norwegian) Suld the Norn is not the same person as Skuld the Valkyrie. Can anyone confirm and correct that?