Talk:Sam Browne belt

refs

Not much in the way of references in this article...129.21.114.185 (talk) 20:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Looks like that's dealt with, there were 41 references when I read it today: [1]. Ken K. Smith (a.k.a. User:Thin Smek) (talk) 16:03, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

police

A number of police forces (the massachusetts state police, for sure) use breakaway sam browne belts so the strap can't be used against the trooper in a fight. the strap is secured to the belt with a clip that will detatch if pulled. Rmd1023 (talk) 12:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC) Oh, also, the sam browne belt is still worn by massachusetts state police troopers as part of the class A full dress uniform, and with the winter (but not summer) general use uniform. Rmd1023 (talk) 12:50, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Contradiction

The Wikipedia article on Sam Browne himself states that he lost his arm from a sword cut during the action in which he won the Victoria Cross. It might be good to decide which version is correct and use that for both articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.130.2.75 (talk) 18:52, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Correction: US Army M1841 Sword Belt

I deleted the statement about the M1841 sword belt because...

• It doesn't look anything like Sam Browne gear. It is made of light buff leather and is secured by a wide belt buckle. It lacks the attachment points and the heavier leather of the Sam Browne.
• It was created before 1858, when Sam Browne lost his arm.

Obsolete

Currently the name 'Sam Brown Belt' is more associated with cycling safety than 20th century military uniform. I suggest a split in this page into the 2 usages. Mtpaley (talk) 23:09, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Not Obsolete

Where are you from Mtpaley? From an Australian POV it is used often in military terms but I have never heard it used for cycling. --TinTin (talk) 03:34, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Doing some international googling it seems that the meaning does indeed vary with location. The UK site is mostly cycling kit. Using the Australian google site it is exclusively military, same for the US. "Where are you from Mtpaley" was the correct question to ask. Mtpaley (talk) 21:28, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

@Mtpaley: In that case, it would be appropriate to add a section on its use in cycling in the UK. You seem to be well placed to do it :-) . --Thnidu (talk) 17:25, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

The cycling safety device is not a Sam Browne belt, which is a military accoutrement with specific functions, at least in origin; it has become by extension, a token element of official uniforms in general. Uniform or pseudo-uniform is the key. The reflective belt would be best described as 'Sam Browne-style.'

In the end it is merely a cross-belt or shoulder-belt, of which there are emany examples in history, with numerous purposes.

However these hi-vis shoulder belts are usually described as "Sam Brown belts" in the UK, so this should be mentioned in the article, regardless of whether it's "correct" or not. 217.169.17.163 (talk) 13:57, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Australian police

The section on police use includes the paragraph

In Australia, a white Sam Browne belt and strap is worn by the Victoria Police Mounted Unit, the New South Wales Police Force VIP Cyclists, Protocol Inspector and Protocol Sergeant (during ceremonies only), NSW Police Academy Senior Protocol Officer (Senior Sergeant) and Parade Sergeant wear a black coloured leather basketweave Sam Browne belt and strap with silver coloured fittings as a badge of office. The same Sam Browne belt is also worn by the Australian Federal Police Ceremonial Mounted Cadre and AFP Drill Instructors.

Most of that text was added by the anonymous 152.91.9.190 ("an organisation with approximately 6000 employees", Verizon Australia PTY Limited[2]; Verizon Business Network). Two sentences run together without a clear break, and a third one with unclear (grammatical) reference.

Who wears what?

• the Victoria Police Mounted Unit: a white Sam Browne belt and strap
• the New South Wales Police Force : ↑↑white or black↓↓?
  • VIP Cyclists, (VIP = Very Important Person ?)
  • Protocol Inspector
  • and Protocol Sergeant (during ceremonies only),
• (NSW) Police Academy : a black coloured leather basketweave Sam Browne belt and strap with silver coloured fittings
  • Senior Protocol Officer (Senior Sergeant)
  • and Parade Sergeant
• Australian Federal Police : "the same" as which?
  • Ceremonial Mounted Cadre
  • and AFP Drill Instructors

--Thnidu (talk) 17:30, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Good sleuthing and analysis, @Thnidu:! Ken K. Smith (a.k.a. User:Thin Smek) (talk) 16:07, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

@Thin Smek: (Bow.) Thank you. I'd nearly forgotten about this talk post! :-) --Thnidu (talk) 17:01, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Strange/dangling reference (I don't know the correct English linguistic term)

"Sir Basil Templer Graham-Montgomery, 5th Baronet of the 60th Rifles while serving in India."

He was 5th Baronet Montgomery of Stanhope, not Baronet of the 60th Rifles. 150.227.15.253 (talk) 10:32, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

I made it read differently by adding a comma after "Baronet", hopefully that fixes it: "It was supposedly invented in 1878 by Lieutenant Sir Basil Templer Graham-Montgomery, 5th Baronet, of the 60th Rifles while serving in India." [3] Ken K. Smith (a.k.a. User:Thin Smek) (talk) 16:18, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

...but he didn't succeed to the baronetcy until 1902, so the title isn't needed at all here. Opera hat (talk) 17:02, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

@Opera hat: I'm not familiar with British aristocratic titles, so I think I'll leave it with your recent edit. However, here in New Zealand when the Queen confers honorary titles on civilians and civic servants, we tend to write of them with those titles even when referring to before they were honoured. I.e. OBE (Officer of the Order of the British Empire), ONZ, NZOM. Particularly in the case of a prefix such as "Sir" or "Dame", we tend to use it almost without exception, and frequently include it in common vernacular. Ken K. Smith (a.k.a. User:Thin Smek) (talk) 19:48, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

On Wikipedia the convention is to refer to people the way they were known at the time. So, for example, the article on Edward Wood, 1st Earl of Halifax calls him "Wood" until he was created Lord Irwin on appointment as Viceroy of India, then "Irwin" until he succeeded his father in 1934, and "Halifax" thereafter – not "Halifax" throughout. See also MOS:MULTINAMES: "If a person is named in an article in which they are not the subject, they should be referred to by the name they were using at the time of the mention rather than a name they may have used before or after the mention." Opera hat (talk) 23:59, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Sir Basil Templer Graham-Montgomery, 5th Baronet of the 60th Rifles (2)

Be that as it may, the "60th Rifles"- a vernacular reference to the 60th King's Royal Rifle Corps, was the title of Graham-Montgomery's regiment at the time of his adaptation of the equipment in 1878. However , under the Childers reforms of 1881 the KRRC ceased to be identified by its regimental number (along with all other line infantry regiments) and at the time the accompanying photograph was taken was known simply as the Kings Royal Rifle Corps. It would be appropriate to amend the caption accordingly. JF42 (talk) 09:12, 16 May 2023 (UTC)