Talk:Salutation/Archive 1

Archive 1

merge from Salutation

Salutation should be a disambiguation page and content moved here -- Q Chris 15:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Wilbers?

Who is Wilbers and why are we quoting him? I would expect to see either an explanation of his significance or a link to a Wikipedia page on this author, if he is considered an authoritative source on salutations. ralmin (talk) 03:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

unsourced?

Something quite bizarre is now going on with this article. It seems that adding "Dear Sir", a salutation to be found it quite literally millions of letters written every day throughout the world, needs to be sourced. It has been removed, seemingly automatically. However there is no source given for "Dear Sir or Madam", "Dear Madam or Sir", "To Whom It May Concern" - I wonder if we need to remove all three until an adequate "source" can be found? I am new to wikipedia and wonder if someone can help explain to me? I am a native English speaker and throughout my life and education "Dear Sir" has been the standard opening for any letter. How does one attribute a source for such an obvious and self-evident fact? Slakelives (talk) 21:21, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Please see my comment to you below (under the heading "American English-centric").  ⊃°HotCrocodile...... + 21:24, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

American English-centric

This article is very much written according to an American English viewpoint. For instance, in most other varieties of English it would not be considered correct to use a colon in a salutation. 82.21.219.114 (talk) 13:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if this might explain the following passage:

Dear Sir or Madam: (If the reader is most likely a male or the sex of the reader is entirely unknown.) Dear Madam or Sir: (If the reader is most likely female.)

Is this an American approach? I am British and although the above wouldn't be incorrect in a formal letter in England we would usually just write "Dear Sir" since normally one has no idea at all whether it will be read by a man or woman and to write "Sir or Madam" etc just looks inelegant in a letter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slakelives (talk • contribs) 20:30, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Elegance would be finding out your recipient's name before sending the letter. "Dear Sir or Madam" sounds no more or less elegant to my ears than "Dear Sir", and (unless one is corresponding with a parrot) has no chance of being wrong. --NellieBly (talk) 20:50, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Alas in writing to a business, for example, one has no way to know who will read a letter. "Dear Sir or Madam" isn't wrong but it is inelegant because it is redundant - starting a letter with "Dear Sir" is perfectly acceptable when one doesn't know who will read it. I just thought it odd that no mention was made of "Dear Sir" when I read the article given that, at least in British English, this is a normal way to begin a letter. The question of elegance is a personal judgement.

The form "Dear Sir or Madam" is in no way redundant as long as we use different forms of address based on gender criteria. As you say, one has no way of knowing who will read the letter. Accordingly, "Dear Sir" is only "perfectly acceptable" if you regard man as the default human being (I sincerely hope I don't have to explain why that is wrong, and disrespectful to potential female recipients). Can we bring this quite redundant discussion to a close? VampaVampa (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC).

VampaVampa thank you for your interesting comments. I must inform you that, at least insofar as it applies to British English, your comments are incorrect though - at least in the grammatical sense; your wider point about whether something is "wrong and disrespectful" when it is just a rule of grammar strikes me as an interesting debate but also rather beyond the scope of an article such as this one. Do you speak French? For any mixed group the masculine is used. To not do so is to speak bad French - alas the political opinions held by the speaker do not change this. Likewise in English - although I stress I only know the English as spoken in the British Isles - there is absolutely no disrespect in beginning a letter with Dear Sir if you do not know who will read it - indeed it is good, formal business English. Wikipedia articles are there to give facts, not be a platform for political arguments. When Neil Armstrong referred to "Man" on the moon it was fully understood he meant all Mankind. When Sayeeda Warsi is the Chairman of the Conservative Party it does not mean she is a man. And when someone begins a letter Dear Sir it can be read by a man or woman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Slakelives (talk • contribs) 22:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

It seems this page has suffered from some vandalism - I have on two occasions noted that one can use "Dear Sir" in a letter and both times it has been removed without explanation. This is a standard practice in formal letters in the British Isles (and I suspect elsewhere although I will leave it to others to say so or otherwise). The vandalism is disappointing since wikipedia is supposed to be written to encyclopaedic standards and not be a political football to be kicked around. My motivation in contributing was a non-native English speaking friend who had used wikipedia to help with letter-writing and noticed the omission so asked me for advice. Slakelives (talk) 14:10, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Please remember to assume good faith in those that revert your edits, rather than assume it's vandalism. I have today reverted one of your edits because it is unsourced. Specifically, please can you cite sources supporting your statement that "Dear Sir" is "always acceptable regardless of the sex of the reader". Thank you.  ⊃°HotCrocodile...... + 21:19, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi, thank you for you message. Point taken about assuming good faith; my reaction was just because people kept deleting my point without any explanation or any alternative and given that I am a native speaker and am just putting something so basic without which the article is incomplete it felt to me like vandalism but I ought not assume bad faith. What would constitute an acceptable source for such an article? I am new to wikipedia so unsure - although not one other part of the English language section has a source, even the bizarre "Dear Madam or Sir" which is so odd as to almost constitute bad English, so I need some guidance as to what I should add. It all seems rather unimportant but lacking "Dear Sir" is an odd omission which could, and in a case of a friend of mine has, lead to confusion for a non-native speaker, so I now feel like it should be put right. Thank you. Slakelives (talk) 01:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it would have been much more helpful if they had left you a message explaining the problem. I agree that "Dear Madam or Sir" is ridiculous, if the writer believed "the reader is most likely female", why would they add "or Sir"? In fact, I shall be bold and delete it. I shall also add "Dear Sir" and "Dear Madam" when addressing the relevant sex, you're quite right that their omission is odd.

It may surprise you, but I think you'll find that the editors reverting you are also native speakers, they just don't share your belief that "Dear Sir" is "always acceptable regardless of the sex of the reader". However, always glad to learn more, I for one will be very interested in any citations you can present. Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources will point you in the right direction. If you need any help form me, please contact me on my talk page. Best of luck.  ⊃°HotCrocodile...... + 02:15, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I think removing "Dear Madam or Sir" is very sensible. I also note you removed the colons - I had noticed them too and thought them incorrect (they are incorrect in the British Isles) but had left them for fear that they might be the norm elsewhere in the Anglophone world. Re-reading what you wrote above I think I can see where I went wrong - when I wrote "regardless of the sex of the reader" I was not precise enough; I meant if the sex was unknown - perhaps if the letter was being sent to a business, for example. If one knew for certain that it would be read by a woman it would be correct to begin "Dear Madam" whereas if one is writing to a business, for example, it is acceptable to begin "Dear Sir" (at least in Britain) - hence I wrote "regardless", as in regardless of who might read it not regardless of whether the writer knew who would read it, but it was ambiguous. I will read the link you suggest. Slakelives (talk) 02:27, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The use of a colon or a comma is explained it the preceding paragraph, so I felt they were unnecessary in the text below. Wouldn't "Dear Sirs" be normal when addressing a business? Unless the company was "Paula's Pink Poodle Parlour".

By the way, when I mentioned that the reverting editors were also "native speakers" before, I really should have said "British English speakers", as correctly anyone raised in an English-speaking country would be a "native speaker".  ⊃°HotCrocodile...... + 02:56, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Slakelives, in case you didn't realise, your edit concerned with "Dear Sir", was challenged and deleted by Bjmullan because it contained the words "British Isles"; for no other reason. Van Speijk (talk) 21:43, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

@Van Speijk - I understand your situation with Bjmullan, but that really isn't the issue here, Bjmullan wasn't the only reverting editor.  ⊃°HotCrocodile...... + 05:37, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I know. I am merely explaining why he reverted. Van Speijk (talk) 14:01, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

And pray tell Van Speijk how did you arrive at this article? Was it perhaps your obsession with having the term British Isles in an article regardless if it is right or wrong? FYI I revert because he had already been reverted twice by another editor and it was also unreferenced shite. Bjmullan (talk) 15:54, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea who you are, Bjmullan, but there is no need to resort to such vulgar language with me; it reflects very badly on you. I am new to wikipedia and was trying to help improve an article. Whether you have some problem with it or not, it is acceptable to start a letter with "Dear Sir," in the British Isles - I noted the latter since others had asked whether the rest of the article was American English and I can only comment on English as spoken and written in the British Isles. I see now there are certain ways that articles are amended and questions of verification and I will continue to learn and hopefully help add to wikipedia but to refer to my contribution as "shite" is unnecessary, especially since everything I wrote was true. Slakelives (talk) 15:08, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Slakelives you are absolutely correct and to be honest I was more annoyed with Van Speijk involvement which was a clear breach of WP:AGF. I have striked my comments and please accept my apology. For your information Wikipedia doesn't deal with what is true only what is verifiable from a reliable source. Bjmullan (talk) 17:23, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Bjmullan - fair enough, apology accepted - everybody runs out of patience sometimes! And yes, HotCrocodile, pointed out that even if something is self-evidently true it can need some source - I think this is probably a good policy with the internet. In my defence I am new here and I was simply trying to improve an article which was lacking some basic information. Thank you. Slakelives (talk) 17:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Russian salutations

There has obviously been some vandalism here. Can someone who knows Russian please fix it? Kb.seah (talk) 13:27, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry but it bugs me that wiki says that I've written on this site. I mean what'a the point of IP adress usage if it's just random — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.107.42.71 (talk) 23:47, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism

Under the "English" heading there is a sentence, at the end of the paragraph, reading:

"Examples: HELLO"

I am unsure if this is vandalism and if so what to change it to. Apologies. I wanted to draw attention to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.12.212.233 (talk) 13:38, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

English section confuses "salutation" and "title".

"Ms.", "Mr.", "Dr." etc. are titles. "Dear Mr. Smith" and "Dear Sir or Madam" are salutations. 77.12.188.241 (talk) 16:37, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Transwiki to Wikibooks.

This is mostly a how-to guide and seems to more appropriately fix the aegis of Wikibooks. - Davodd (talk) 20:23, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Salutation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060125010819/http://www.evergreen.edu/library/govdocs/salutations.html to http://www.evergreen.edu/library/GovDocs/salutations.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 23:35, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Russian

The russian section needs a version in latin script. --91.113.13.175 (talk) 22:42, 27 October 2018 (UTC)