Talk:Saint-Domingue Creoles
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Name change
editThe name should be changed, it is a play on the word "Dominican", indirectly suggesting that this group has something to do with Dominican Republic or it's people, but it has nothing to do with DR. "Dominican creoles" also never referred to themselves as "Dominican creoles", nor did other people referred to them as such. Once Haitian independence came, the people renamed their country- giving it the current name Haiti and started to refer to themselves as Haitians. Before that event, the colony was called St. Domingue (and the eastern spanish colony was called Santo Domingo). In French St. Domingue, there was far less mixing and intermingling between races in comparasion to the spanish side of the island which had a large mixed population early on in the coloinal period. St Domingue's white French probably saw themselves as white/French first and very different from St Domingue's enslaved black African majority, they did'nt see themselves as one group under the name "Dominican creoles", they were just French and African. Not only did they not see themselves the same in St Domingue, that colony was completely different ancestrally and culturally from it's eastern spanish neighbor Santo Domingo. A good name would be St Dominguans (to distinguish from the very different Dominican people), or just make it simple and put "Colonial-era Haitians". MonsenorNouel (talk) 19:03, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- The name Dominican, from Saint Dominican, has to do entirely with the whole island of Santo Domingo, which both modern Haiti and the Dominican Republic share. Indeed, the name "Dominican" Republic refers to the island.
- Your comments about mixing and intermingling between races being less is not relevant to this discussion, and can easily be proven false. Further, your supposition that native Saint Dominicans (Dominican Creoles) did not see themselves as sharing a common culture is also false. Saying that Saint Dominicans considered themselves just "French" and "African" is not a reflection of reality.
- This ethnicity is usually written as Dominican or Saint Dominican in literature, especially in older publications from Louisiana. Here is an example of this usage on a publication, "PGT Beauregard, Napoleon in Gray", T.Harry Williams, 1955:
- "Pierre played with slave boys his own age and as a baby was suckled by a Dominican slave woman." - Understand, the usage of Dominican in this instance refers to Saint-Domingue, not the Dominican Republic.
- St.Dominguan is not a very common name for this ethnicity, and "Colonial-era Haitians" is as much of a confusing description of the culture, as to calling "New Netherlanders" "Colonial-era New Yorkers".
- Nevertheless, I have moved the article to the name, "Saint-Domingue Creoles", a common name for the Creole ethnicity, for clarification. Aearthrise (talk) 21:02, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Hi Aearthrise, I have been in the Haiti space for a long while; I believe my contributions for about over a decade can speak for itself including a revamped WP:HAITI that I had initiated. With that being said, historically speaking (sources dated back to the 18th and 19th century), have I ever heard the term “Saint Dominican Creole” or anything to that effect. If you aren’t aware, France also had the Dominica colony for quite a while and they were called “Dominican” including their French-based Creole as Dominican Creole and/or Patois. Believe me if this were the case I would have done so already with this group of people. However, in an attempt to “make it tidy” you have tagged article with this demonym across pages where it is not even included in said sources for each article which makes it WP:OR. Can you at least provide us all with the exact sources you have used to cite the article name please? People from Louisiana and Saint-Domingue were simply known as Creoles. I suppose “Saint Domingue Creole” may be used for the simple fact that it denotes [place][demonym] but nothing more. “Dominican” or even “Saint Dominican” is not used in any sources I have ever cited dating back to the 1700s. You have also known opened up pandora’s box in trying to decipher Creoles from Dominica, Creoles from Saint-Domingue and even the Dominicans from the Dominican Republic who also use the term criollo which means creole because what it has simply always meant was “colony born” and in some earlier cases they that are from Spanish family settlers as a class. This will be a tall task for any would-be editor to enter the space next. cc MonsenorNouel | Savvyjack23 (talk) 14:48, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- There also was a popular saying in France which was “to be as rich as a Creole” at the time of Saint-Domingue which was boasted in Paris during its colonial years for being the most lucrative colony in the world. (America's Irresistible Attraction: Beyond the Green Card (2011); Dinga, John S., pp 489). Also, in general the “Saint” in demonyms for the French colonies haven’t been consistent. In Saint Lucia, they are known as Saint Lucians but in Saint Kitts they are known as Kittians. “St. Dominican”, “Saint Dominican”, “St. Dominican Creole”, “Saint Dominican Creole” or “Dominican Creole” in respect to all of these people and whose sources do not support such a phrase needs to be accounted for. For example, if none of the sources for ie Vincent Ogé mention such a term, it cannot be used. I have noticed that some articles leave out “Dominican” while others simply have “Creole” like it probably should. I also noticed “Creole” was not applied to Haitian Revolutionary, Toussaint Louverture in his WP:LEAD even though he died before Haiti became a Republic in name but I don’t think that would have went over well to say he was not “Haitian”. Welcome to world of Haitian history Aearthrise. I hope that we can find a satisfactory resolution. Savvyjack23 (talk) 15:07, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- For the record, I think Saint-Domingue Creoles can be acceptable as a title because it does not denote simply the demonym; it denotes [Place]+[Demonym] as Louisiana Creole is named even though people simply have always been called “Creole” only as Creoles from Saint-Domingue. Though, this was like most of France’s colonies during this time. The only difference was that the majority of these creoles in population were from Saint-Domingue or Louisiana. Savvyjack23 (talk) 15:18, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- Also, the source "PGT Beauregard, Napoleon in Gray" by T.Harry Williams, 1955 by far is not enough. It must explicably tie it to Saint-Domingue. From looking at that one sentence, it does not make this connection clear. Again, Creoles (as well as slaves) from Dominica, demonym “Dominican” who speak Dominican Creole, a French-based Creole language which is related but separate from Haitian Creole could qualify for this term. One from Saint-Domingue could not. The focus should be on WP:COMMONNAME. Even “People of Saint-Domingue” is an acceptable title article. Believe me we will run in a myriad of problems and it is already complex as it is managing this history for the island in general. Savvyjack23 (talk) 16:51, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- Then you have people like Thomas-Alexandre Dumas with the now-changed demonym “Dominican Creole” when even though he was born in the Saint-Domingue colony, he was a French citizen and general for the French army. The term is entirely WP:OR and cannot be cited in any piece of literature for Dumas (which is required under WP:BIO) other than being a Creole at the very least. I really wish you have reached out to some editors of the Haitian history space first. There is a reason none of these changes could have been made throughout the board in such a manner. Savvyjack23 (talk) 17:26, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- Unfortunately MonsenorNouel; there is not enough for the term “Dominguan” to supersede “Creole” and establish WP:COMMONNAME for people in Saint-Domingue. Even “Dominguan Creole” is nowhere to be found. Also, in 1794, a law was passed that declared that "all men resident in the colonies, without distinction of color, are French citizens and enjoy all the rights assured by the Constitution". So there is that issue too but a local demonym have always been in use. (ie, Martiniquais, Guadeloupean etc) but usually not in a WP:LEAD. Americans in Hawaii is a prime example. I am in favor of Saint-Domingue Creoles or People of Saint-Domingue. Dominican Creoles is an impossibility and should be revised immediately. This is not a cut and dry subject. Myself and other editors have ran into this issue many many times while maintaining WP:NEUTRALITY in the space in respect to others of the Dominican name (and/or lack of WP:COMMONNAME as the determining factor ultimately) for these peoples. Also, let’s not forget that Hayti, Haiti, Ayti, Ayiti (spelling differs between French, Creole and Spanish sects) or something to that effect was the original name for the whole island before Columbus. It was simply reestablished for the island upon independence by Dessalines which also makes “Haitian Creole” perfectly acceptable language as well but I digress. Savvyjack23 (talk) 17:45, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- Aearthrise The image [[File:Portrait d une femme haitienne, Francois Beaucourt.jpg]] is described by its source and uploader as a “Haitian woman”, yet on the Saint-Domingue article the image caption was changed to “St Domingue servant girl”. (She was a slave too by the way, not a mere servant). What are we doing here? Savvyjack23 (talk) 17:54, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- Unfortunately MonsenorNouel; there is not enough for the term “Dominguan” to supersede “Creole” and establish WP:COMMONNAME for people in Saint-Domingue. Even “Dominguan Creole” is nowhere to be found. Also, in 1794, a law was passed that declared that "all men resident in the colonies, without distinction of color, are French citizens and enjoy all the rights assured by the Constitution". So there is that issue too but a local demonym have always been in use. (ie, Martiniquais, Guadeloupean etc) but usually not in a WP:LEAD. Americans in Hawaii is a prime example. I am in favor of Saint-Domingue Creoles or People of Saint-Domingue. Dominican Creoles is an impossibility and should be revised immediately. This is not a cut and dry subject. Myself and other editors have ran into this issue many many times while maintaining WP:NEUTRALITY in the space in respect to others of the Dominican name (and/or lack of WP:COMMONNAME as the determining factor ultimately) for these peoples. Also, let’s not forget that Hayti, Haiti, Ayti, Ayiti (spelling differs between French, Creole and Spanish sects) or something to that effect was the original name for the whole island before Columbus. It was simply reestablished for the island upon independence by Dessalines which also makes “Haitian Creole” perfectly acceptable language as well but I digress. Savvyjack23 (talk) 17:45, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- Then you have people like Thomas-Alexandre Dumas with the now-changed demonym “Dominican Creole” when even though he was born in the Saint-Domingue colony, he was a French citizen and general for the French army. The term is entirely WP:OR and cannot be cited in any piece of literature for Dumas (which is required under WP:BIO) other than being a Creole at the very least. I really wish you have reached out to some editors of the Haitian history space first. There is a reason none of these changes could have been made throughout the board in such a manner. Savvyjack23 (talk) 17:26, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- Also, the source "PGT Beauregard, Napoleon in Gray" by T.Harry Williams, 1955 by far is not enough. It must explicably tie it to Saint-Domingue. From looking at that one sentence, it does not make this connection clear. Again, Creoles (as well as slaves) from Dominica, demonym “Dominican” who speak Dominican Creole, a French-based Creole language which is related but separate from Haitian Creole could qualify for this term. One from Saint-Domingue could not. The focus should be on WP:COMMONNAME. Even “People of Saint-Domingue” is an acceptable title article. Believe me we will run in a myriad of problems and it is already complex as it is managing this history for the island in general. Savvyjack23 (talk) 16:51, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- For the record, I think Saint-Domingue Creoles can be acceptable as a title because it does not denote simply the demonym; it denotes [Place]+[Demonym] as Louisiana Creole is named even though people simply have always been called “Creole” only as Creoles from Saint-Domingue. Though, this was like most of France’s colonies during this time. The only difference was that the majority of these creoles in population were from Saint-Domingue or Louisiana. Savvyjack23 (talk) 15:18, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- There also was a popular saying in France which was “to be as rich as a Creole” at the time of Saint-Domingue which was boasted in Paris during its colonial years for being the most lucrative colony in the world. (America's Irresistible Attraction: Beyond the Green Card (2011); Dinga, John S., pp 489). Also, in general the “Saint” in demonyms for the French colonies haven’t been consistent. In Saint Lucia, they are known as Saint Lucians but in Saint Kitts they are known as Kittians. “St. Dominican”, “Saint Dominican”, “St. Dominican Creole”, “Saint Dominican Creole” or “Dominican Creole” in respect to all of these people and whose sources do not support such a phrase needs to be accounted for. For example, if none of the sources for ie Vincent Ogé mention such a term, it cannot be used. I have noticed that some articles leave out “Dominican” while others simply have “Creole” like it probably should. I also noticed “Creole” was not applied to Haitian Revolutionary, Toussaint Louverture in his WP:LEAD even though he died before Haiti became a Republic in name but I don’t think that would have went over well to say he was not “Haitian”. Welcome to world of Haitian history Aearthrise. I hope that we can find a satisfactory resolution. Savvyjack23 (talk) 15:07, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Aearthrise, I have been in the Haiti space for a long while; I believe my contributions for about over a decade can speak for itself including a revamped WP:HAITI that I had initiated. With that being said, historically speaking (sources dated back to the 18th and 19th century), have I ever heard the term “Saint Dominican Creole” or anything to that effect. If you aren’t aware, France also had the Dominica colony for quite a while and they were called “Dominican” including their French-based Creole as Dominican Creole and/or Patois. Believe me if this were the case I would have done so already with this group of people. However, in an attempt to “make it tidy” you have tagged article with this demonym across pages where it is not even included in said sources for each article which makes it WP:OR. Can you at least provide us all with the exact sources you have used to cite the article name please? People from Louisiana and Saint-Domingue were simply known as Creoles. I suppose “Saint Domingue Creole” may be used for the simple fact that it denotes [place][demonym] but nothing more. “Dominican” or even “Saint Dominican” is not used in any sources I have ever cited dating back to the 1700s. You have also known opened up pandora’s box in trying to decipher Creoles from Dominica, Creoles from Saint-Domingue and even the Dominicans from the Dominican Republic who also use the term criollo which means creole because what it has simply always meant was “colony born” and in some earlier cases they that are from Spanish family settlers as a class. This will be a tall task for any would-be editor to enter the space next. cc MonsenorNouel | Savvyjack23 (talk) 14:48, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
Demonym
editDominican Republic → République dominicaine in French. (Note: Domingo is not the same word as "Dominicana" (Dominican) in Spanish even though they both derive from Saint Dominic.)
Dominica → Dominique; Dominican → Dominiquais in French. ─In this instance, English rules merely replaced the "qu" (k) with a "c" (Latinized "c", opposed to a Germanicized "k") for the existing word "Dominican".
Domingue is used in both English and French lexicons. Domingais in French → Dominguan .. NOT Dominican.
Again Aearthrise, none of these are WP:COMMONNAME and the plethora of works cited in this article; I checked them all. Saint-Dominican/Saint Dominican/Dominican in terms of the French colony of Saint-Domingue are for the large part WP:OR by your inclusions and if supported, are by a very small minority of Americans who wrote about it much much later via non-fiction publications who did not understand the French to English grammar translation. "Saint-Dominguan" or "Dominguan" aren't even WP:COMMONNAME. It was just Creole. If we needed to give it a classification, it would be what the article is named as "Saint-Domingue Creoles". However, this still would not supersede the "Haitian Creoles" and/or Haitians. For the majority of people from Saint-Domingue, these Creoles became Haitians by name. So by your article naming, did the history of these peoples begin in 1804? As mentioned earlier, Toussaint Louverture did not even see Haiti (died in 1802) but he is a Haitian Revolutionary. Furthermore, there are references that refer to the earlier peoples of Saint-Domingue as Haitians in modern sources. (See: Jean Baptiste Point du Sable, who has a plaque in Chicago stating he was "Haitian-born". here Also, sparsely referenced as "Haitian" here, here and here.
John James Audubon was born in Les Cayes, Saint Domingue and is often referenced to being born in Haiti without Saint-Domingue anywhere to be found. Even by his own organization and/or enthusiasts at Audubon.org
The same are conducted for peoples like Christopher Columbus who was Genovese (from Genoa) but are said to be "Italian" even though the Republic of Italy didn't exist and wasn't yet united. These groups came from various Kingdoms in this Italic area.
The articles were fine by simply stating " a Creole from Saint-Domingue" and if we (editors) were to use modern terminology they would all have sources in their biographies stating that each and everyone pertaining to the French side of the island were "Haitian" as WP:COMMONNAME.
You do understand (as in the case of Italy), that "Haiti" is the native name for the entire island before Columbus' arrival right? That the name was restored as the aboriginal name by Jean-Jacques Dessalines. A name that predates both Santo Domingo/San Domingo, Saint-Domingue and Hispaniola which the latter was put into official use for the whole island by Americans who occupied both lands, dividing both countries up (Haiti/DR) after setting official borders in the early 20th century. Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:23, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Contrary to your "New Netherlander" example, "Saint-Domingais" (Saint-Dominguan) is nowhere to be found by the French in terms of naming these peoples from Saint-Domingue who simply called them Creoles. Domingais alone on a few occasions referred to the Order of Saint Dominic and their religion. Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:31, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Supposed Saint-Domingue Creole images
editAearthrise, among the plethora of images you have either used in various articles and/or uploaded via Commons of 'Agostino Brunias' work allegedly pertaining to Saint-Domingue are all in regards to DOMINCA, the French and English colony! Here is an example: [1]; British History museum description: Free Natives of Dominica
"West Indian" even though it can be attributed to all the Caribbean nations, is mostly a modern-day application for English-speaking Caribbean nations.
I must say, I am overwhelmed by your "contributions", which have largely gone unchecked for more than 2 years in a misguided attempt at renaming everything Saint-Dominican or Dominican Creole en masse! Savvyjack23 (talk) 03:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- This image (again by Agostino Brunias): [1] blatantly states: "A Negroes Dance in the Island of Dominica"! How exactly are you missing all of this? Are you not aware that the island of Dominica even exists?? Savvyjack23 (talk) 04:08, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
![[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:West_Indian_Slave_Dancing.jpg){kind=link}