Talk:Religulous/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Religulous. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Christianity

Latest comment: 16 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

I would assume that Christians are interviewed in this documentary too. Can we get that inserted in here and cited? 155.138.250.6 (talk) 23:11, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is cited already by the source. Feel free to be bold next time! --Rajah (talk) 09:05, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, judeo-christian mythology is covered in the film. --68.81.70.65 (talk) 19:45, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Slate Review

Latest comment: 16 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

An anon tried removing this because he felt it didn't represent the critical basis of the film and that it was inaccurate because Maher's not an atheist. There's ten positive reviews and two negative reviews listed. I think, at the very least, that should be an acceptable ratio. (Actually, considering the current 65% percent on RT, 10-2 probably isn't that accurate, but I'm not going to try to change it)

At the same time, I found a cited article stating with Maher stating that he's not an atheist, just not a believer in religion and cited that article with the statement about the film being atheistic, so hopefully no one will read the Slant review now and (perish the thought!) think that Maher's an atheist.--CyberGhostface (talk) 23:20, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

(although Maher has stated that he's not an atheist, and that "There's a really big difference between an atheist and someone who just doesn't believe in religion"^[1]) - removed this bit, as "atheistic" is referring to the film, not to Maher. Cirt (talk) 00:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Reception Section

Latest comment: 16 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

As it stands, it seems that the passage on the film's reviews - which cites numerous reviews at length - is rather too long. I think it should be trimmed down.--Seed-kun (talk) 07:34, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Nah, I think instead we should focus on expanding the other sections - Contents, with an expanded summary of the documentary; Production, with more info on any casting info, how the production team got together and background on that, editing info, music, etc.; and then subsequently expand the lede accordingly. This is actually an adequate size for a Reception section of the article in comparison to other Featured Articles on film topics. Cirt (talk) 07:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Speakers' Corner

Latest comment: 16 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

[1] - Do we have a source for this? Cirt (talk) 22:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

[2]--CyberGhostface (talk) 22:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Done, thanks. Cirt (talk) 22:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Bleeps

Latest comment: 16 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

What's up with all of the bleeps in the trailer? It made it almost unwatchable. 76.123.165.106 (talk) 00:45, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

lol, that's not the trailer, you clicked on the "kosher" joke version of the trailer.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.90.204.120 (talk • contribs) 15:27, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The bleeps are only in the "Kosher" version of the trailer. It's not even stuff worth bleeping. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CorrodedKeri (talk • contribs) 04:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Where was Rael?

Latest comment: 16 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The text of the article and some of the pre-release blurbs mention "Rael of the Raelean Movement", but I didn't see him in the movie, unless it was in one of the brief cut scenes, which wouldn't be worth mentioning individually.Prebys (talk) 19:38, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I didn't see him either, although I did doze off a few times, so I could have missed him. Krakatoa (talk) 17:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Caveats on reviewers

Latest comment: 16 years ago10 comments6 people in discussion

Film critic Roger Ebert, a Roman Catholic... - I do not think this is an appropriate change, this bit of info is irrelevant here, and "Roman Catholic" should be removed. Are we to state the faith of all of the reviewers and film critics now? Cirt (talk) 18:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. It should be removed.--CyberGhostface (talk) 19:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and I've removed it. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:09, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Cirt (talk) 02:17, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

No, we are not "to state the faith of all of the reviewers and film critics now", but Ebert's faith is relevant given that a) he is quite religious and has based whole columns on that and b) he references this by saying he reports "faithfully" and c) he gives a positive review even though the movie mocks his religion and others' Keepscases (talk) 16:42, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Keepscases (talk · contribs) - I disagree, as does CyberGhostface (talk · contribs) and Metropolitan90 (talk · contribs). This is highly inappropriate and I have never seen this sort of prefacing done before in any other Reception section of any article of this type. It is POV and borderline WP:OR, and tangential and irrelevant. Cirt (talk) 16:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I see that Keepscases (talk · contribs) has now added this info back into the article a third time. I think this is inappropriate behavior, especially when taking into account the consensus above not to include this in the article. Cirt (talk) 16:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, consensus is that this should not be in the article. I have reverted and warned.--Terrillja (talk) 17:02, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

It is not "highly inappropriate." Replacing the article with a giant picture of a penis would be "highly inappropriate." Mentioning a reviewers' faith that happens to be very much relevant to the subject matter is not inappropriate. Keepscases (talk) 21:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that information is relevant, but belongs on the page about the person. Surprise; there is a part about his faith. "Ebert has been known to comment on films using his own Roman Catholic upbringing (...) However, Ebert identifies himself today as an agnostic." Excusez-moi if I did not quote it well as I'm no regular user, but I would say check your sources before you go fighting (irrelevant) battles.130.236.5.145 (talk) 08:11, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Maher scores his best points...

Latest comment: 16 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

I have added the following: "Maher scores his best points when he is interviewing certified weirdos and borderline lunatics, like a South American fellow named Jesus who claims, perhaps partly on the basis of the shared name, that he is the second coming of Jesus Christ," says Dinesh D'Souza. Obviously, he charges, "Maher is in search of weak opponents that he can embarrass." D'Souza has challenged him to hold a debate: "I would love to debate him on his show, and can easily show that Maher’s self-image as an intellectual is largely bogus. It is only in the company of obvious charlatans and simpletons that Maher comes off as the bright guy." (Why Bill Maher Made Me Laugh by Dinesh D'Souza) Asteriks (talk) 09:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that should be rephrased. It does not sound very NPOV for me, rather like a press release... So Why 10:12, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this material is POV, not just that, it is way too much quoted text, should be trimmed down significantly, and paraphrased. Cirt (talk) 10:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I have shortened it and reworded it to make it clear it's D'Souza's opinion rather than a statement of the article. Although, since D'Souza isn't really a film critic, it's not clear his opinions belong here at all.Prebys (talk) 17:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Prebys (talk · contribs), not really approp, should be removed. Cirt (talk) 17:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Mockumentary not Documentary

Latest comment: 16 years ago16 comments11 people in discussion

PBS, HBO, Discovery, History, BBC, et al. make documentaries. BM is not serious nor his he neutral. He's hateful and an egomaniac. He makes no attempt at a balanced point of view. Some people may be inclined to take him seriously, and they need to be reminded that BM is a comedian, talking head, and again, egomaniac. Watch this film if you want, but take it with a grain of salt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.81.76 (talk) 22:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not one to defend someone who told the aunt of a mentally retarded child that she should treat her nephew like an animal, but at the same time, it is a documentary. Lots of documentaries, from Michael Moore to Ben Stein, all have biases one way or another.--CyberGhostface (talk) 23:03, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it has been said that all good documentaries have a point of view. A mockumentary is a completely different animal, usually a complete work of fiction with scripted performances like the Christopher Guest films. "Borat" was kind of a blend with a fictionalized character dealing with real people. "Religulous" is neither of those. Bill is being Bill...it's not an act...and he's interviewing real people. If he ends up making some look silly that doesn't make it not a documentary. I've seen it and I don't think Bill goads anyone into looking silly. I'm sure you've seen the part shown in the trailer where the Senator remarks that there's no IQ test for the Senate! Filmteknik (talk) 05:59, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

So you want someone to mention that Maher is a hateful, egomaniac on an objective encyclopedia? Go grind your axe somewhere else. F33bs (talk) 07:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia? Objective? Heh.--CyberGhostface (talk) 12:27, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

We try. So should you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.212.2.86 (talk) 15:45, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Ummm...who says I haven't? Didn't I disagree with the initial poster about this being a 'mockumentary'? Even if I personally don't like Maher, I'm not going to be using his article(s) as a personal agenda for that.--CyberGhostface (talk) 16:56, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

The content of the documentary has to be made up for it to be a mockumentary. However if you read the article it says he lied about who he was to get some of his interviews, so this documentary might fall under the category of being made up. Ninja337 (talk) 21:18, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

He was dishonest in obtaining the interviews, that much is definitely true. However, the interviews themselves are 'factual' in that he's not playing a fictional character ala Borat and he's interviewing real people. On another note, while it doesn't excuse Maher, lots of documentary filmmakers have lied to obtain interviews with people who normally wouldn't give interviews in the first place.--CyberGhostface (talk) 21:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Maher has said multiple times that the movie is meant to be first and foremost: a comedy. Not a documentary. F33bs (talk) 00:48, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

A mockumentary is a fictional documentary, like Best In Show or Borat. Whilst you may feel that this movie is not 100% seriosus etc etc, but it is still technically a documentary.Sadistic monkey (talk) 09:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I would not call "Borat" a mockumentary, I would call it a "semi-documentary" whose closest parallel is "Candid Camera" as the ordinary people interacting with the Borat character were caught in the act of being themselves under outrageous circumstances. Steelbeard1 (talk) 12:23, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

````Bill isnt trying to make anyone look idiotic. I dont think he's being byast, he's simply tying to contrast everything he's being told. Thats what a documentry is-when every bit of information, or belif in this case, is questioned again and again to get the best possible idea of whats going on. He's a commedian, so can you really blame him for making a few people look a little silly. I think it's a great movie. Also, if t were a mock., don't you think they would have included more byast?```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by CorrodedKeri (talk • contribs) 04:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd love to see this movie, but since not living in the United Mistakes, I can't! This is also what disgustes me, the money making! If BM's intention was to reach as many people as possible and "wake" them up a bit, he himself should provide a download of the whole movie. I'm sure he's a very good income and doesn't really need those additional millions! (maybe at least, he'll use that money for a good purpose, I hope!) By the way, there's a new Zeitgeist movie out now, an Addendum. Everyone should see that! AND, Zeitgeist as well as the Addendum is 100% FREE! The makers even encourage people to spread it and hand out copies to as many people as possible! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.72.111.41 (talk) 18:14, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

derp. Ninja337 (talk) 01:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I just want to know how the fuck you try to say "biased" and end up spelling it "byast"!!!!! --Jaysweet (talk) 01:25, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Comparison with "An American Carol"

Latest comment: 16 years ago6 comments2 people in discussion

"American Carol" director David Zucker himself calls his film the opposite of this film at http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/ent/stories/DN-carol_1003gl.ART.State.Edition1.2699bd1.html so comparisons with that film do belong in this article. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The comparison "might" belong in the article somewhere, but comparing revenue is still OR, unless you have another rabbit in your hat somewhere? I will revert your newest attempt to push your own observations and opinions. 18:50, 6 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by CENSEI (talk • contribs)

Variety has an article directly comparing the two films at http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117993541.html?categoryid=13&cs=1 Steelbeard1 (talk) 03:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Here's a comparison from a Catholic viewpoint: http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/16170/ Steelbeard1 (talk) 03:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

As I mentioned in the other talk page, only one of those compares the revenue figures and that's as an aside. You really need a better source if you want to add such comparisons else it's OR. If you want to mention that it opened aside Religilious that's fine, but don't mention viewership/revenue figures without a good source making this comparison Nil Einne (talk) 11:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The weekly box office links are not sufficient enough? Steelbeard1 (talk)

The weekly box office links only establish how each films did. They don't establish that we should be comparing the two. The Dallas News article establish that people compares the two films but it doesn't establish that we should compare their viewship figures. As it stands, in this article since the section is comparing more then just An American Carol I've decided to let it stand but it still appears POV pushy and OR to me. The second section comparing the two in the second week has absolutely no source comparing the two and it only compares the two so it's clear cut OR IMHO. There's nothing wrong with mentioning that people have compared the two but if you want to compare viewship figures, you need sources which compare the viewership figures. Otherwise it's OR to compare the viewership figures. If you want to compare the film to every other film on the boxoffice for that week, then that's probably not OR but it would be too long. Nil Einne (talk) 13:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The news stories mentioned above among others you can easily Google makes comparing how the two films did in the box office extremely relevant. Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:24, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

What is this rated?

Latest comment: 16 years ago9 comments7 people in discussion

I have been tring to find out what this is rated for forever. You Know like R and G and PG and stuff? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr. Invisible Person (talk • contribs) 23:04, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

It's rated R.--CyberGhostface (talk) 23:12, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Why is it rated R? There is no violence, no sex, nothing gruesome or potentially traumatising in it. I mean Dark Knight for instance - which after all contains several horribly disfigured freaks and some vigorous cruelties - was rated PG-13. --87.160.228.230 (talk) 16:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps language? Cirt (talk) 17:27, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe there was brief nudity if I remember correctly. Anyways, from Yahoo movies: MPAA Rating: R for some language and sexual material.--Terrillja (talk) 17:37, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

There was only one "horribly disfigured freak" in The Dark Knight...two, if you count the Joker's face. But in all seriousness, The Dark Knight will probably be the MPAA poster child for directors wanting to get the R ratings lowered to a PG-13. As for Religulous...as someone else stated, there's language and nudity. And yes, I've heard the argument that little Johnny will probably be more traumitized by someone getting half their face burned off than a stray nipple, but them's the breaks.--CyberGhostface (talk) 14:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

If you say "Fuck" more than X number of times (and X is a pretty low number, three or five or something) that's an automatic R as far as the MPAA is concerned. Cuz you know, saying "Fuck" is way more dangerous than killing people. --Jaysweet (talk) 15:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

That is not exactly true. In Gunner Palace, "Fuck" is said 42 times and is rated PG-13. In Guilty by Suspicion, it is said at least 10 times, also PG-13. There are others. The MPAA always has been wildly inconsistent and arbitrary when it comes to ratings. MrBlondNYC (talk) 01:17, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Huh, I'm a little surprised to hear that. So far I have never come across a movie that has it more than three times that is not rated R. For instance, I always figured that's why the R-rating for Planes, Trains, and Automobiles, cuz I can't figure any other reason. But yeah, as you say, MPAA has been consistently inconsistent :D So I suppose add the adverb "generally" to every sentence in my previous comment. ;) --Jaysweet (talk) 01:15, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Release Date

Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Section reads strangely. Was it pushed back to July and then pushed back further to October? Then it should say so. It reads now as if there were two releases. Jd2718 (talk) 14:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Diametrically opposed to An American Carol?

Latest comment: 16 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion

I have now twice deleted the info comparing this film to An American Carol. The article was claiming that Religulous was somehow "diametrically opposed" to An American Carol because it claims Carol is conservative. This I guess implies that making fun of religion is always liberal, which of course it isn't. There are "conservative" atheists and "liberal" theists, and Michael Moore is actually a Catholic so Carol is actually mocking a Catholic, although not because of his religion.

The comparison was reinserted because the editor said it compared this film with other films out at the same time. Fine, but it's already compared to the #1 film, so why would you compare it to the #1 film and then another random other film without any other film? The article claimed they are diametrically opposed films, but I think I've shown that is patently false, because mocking religion doesn't equal liberal, and mocking Michael Moore and mocking religion only have one thing in common, mocking something. So should we then compare it to all films making fun of things out that week? Compare it to the top film or all top ten films out that week, but not to some other film that isn't really related to this film at all. 129.82.251.96 (talk) 22:19, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

The films An American Carol and Religious were both released to theaters around the same time and both films were compared in several news stories at that time. So the comparison is relevant if several news sources did the same thing such as the existing citation at [3]. Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I've reworded the passage in question to that similar to the wording in the An American Carol article which developed in consensus. Steelbeard1 (talk) 15:18, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

The wording is better, but I tend to agree with 129.82.251.96 that this is at best superfluous and at worst tacitly assumes the "religion=patriotism" thing that Religulous tries to fight. I notice you've changed the "American Carol"'s "sometimes compared" to "often compared" and make reference to "several news stories", but there is only one article cited in either article. If this is really the only case of the two compared in print, then it hardly seems noteworthy. The inclusion is loaded with preconceptions about what "liberals" and "conservatives" enjoy. Personally, I loved "Religulous" (as did my conservative Republican neighbor), but find Michael Moore annoying as hell, so I probably would have liked "American Carol" except that the reviews make it clear it's simply not funny (however, even most of the negative reviews say it *could* have been). I feel it has no place in the article, but for now will simply change "often compared" to "has been compared" pending more citations.Prebys (talk) 17:05, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Now there are four journalistic citations to back up the edit. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:53, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Good work. I still personally think the comparison is misplaced; that is comparing a good anti-religion movie to a bad anti-Michael Moore movie. "Team America" proved that it can be extremely funny (and profitable) to make fun of "Hollywood liberals" in general, and Michael Moore in particular; however, clearly a significant media element disagrees with me, so it's inclusion with the current wording is certainly appropriate.Prebys (talk) 19:32, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Question about link (or section) listing rebuttal of assertions from movie

Latest comment: 15 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

There is a list of each of the approximately 167 assertions from the Religulous movie with a rebuttal (or affirmation) of each assertion at [4], including such things as the short Kirk Cameron video clip in context. Would it be appropriate to add that as an external link or to the "criticisms" section? I can't seem to find another site that answers each assertion one by one and it seems like this article would be improved by linking to a list of each assertion made in the movie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lowellwballard (talk • contribs) 00:17, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't know...that appears to be a blog, so I don't know how reliable that would be considered.--CyberGhostface (talk) 01:00, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

It's a fundamentalist protestant blog. Not worth citing. BoosterBronze (talk) 23:57, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

New cover

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

About time for a new cover image on the right, no? Perhaps the DVD release next week? 72.219.145.177 (talk) 20:12, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Satanists?

Latest comment: 15 years ago6 comments6 people in discussion

I don't recall any Satanists being interviewed. --Morning star (talk) 18:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

only one ex-satanist --Zhitelew (talk) 16:09, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Alleged ex-satanist 68.7.194.185 (talk) 02:51, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe there are any official qualifications to be a Satanist, let alone a ex-Satanist, so I'm willing to give the trucker the benefit of the doubt.Prebys (talk) 16:51, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

It comes from a source which had one other fact wrong, he never interviewed any polygamists as far as I can remember. So I'd believe that they got satanists wrong too.--Terrillja _talk 03:13, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I lot of articles make reference to interviewing "Satanists", but I suspect they just copied from each other. On the other hand, there was a lot of unused footage (the Raelleans were actually disappointed they were left out), so it's possible that Satanism was mentioned in some early teasers. I haven't been able to dig up anything concrete though, and it certainly didn't make it into the movie.Prebys (talk)

Yes, one of the people Maher interviews at the Truckers Chapel talks about being an ordained Satanist priest for 30 years prior to "getting saved". If anyone has other questions related to the film feel free to ask me. Recognizance (talk) 01:38, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Negative Criticism

Latest comment: 15 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

I removed the criticism citing AmericanCatholic.com, partly because almost the entire review was quoted, but also because the review was factually inaccurate about points of the film, including giving Maher credit as the maker of the film, and claiming he spoke to the most 'uninformed' members of all of the religions, which is demonstably false from the interview list. BoosterBronze (talk) 23:57, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

That's reasonable; I've read the rest of that section and while the 'neutrality disputed' tag remains it looks neutral to me. The critics quoted are respected in their field and aren't organizations clearly opposed to the material (eg AmericanCatholic.com.) Jkoudys (talk) 12:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

The negative reception should be taken out and combined with plain reception, since the film got mixed reviews anyway, and it's not like there was a huge backlash that requires its own section.Amfx22000 (talk) 17:37, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Interview list

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I was watching this with a few friends and took note of the names of people who were interviewed. I then updated the list on this page. Someone else can arrange them per wiki-standards, but this is the order (they weren't in any particular order before) they appeared in the film. Due to the way the film is edited, some people only appear for a few seconds or are interspersed with other people's interviews, in case anyone says "I don't remember seeing... X Y Z." Recognizance (talk) 01:40, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Controversy?

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

According to this article from the CTNS journal, Theology and Science - [5], some controversy exists regarding the interviews with Ken Ham and Francis Collins. The article cites evidence to support allegations that these interviews were deliberately set up under misleading and false pretenses. Given the contextual relevance of this controversy, is this issue worth mentioning in the article? Jgarth (talk) 12:31, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

There is no Year 0 AD. New Testament Not Completed in 1 AD.

Latest comment: 15 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The Interviews section item concerning George Coyne formerly included the line "all of the scriptures are written around/between 2000 BC and 0 AD". I haven't seen the film and don't know whether the line is intended to be a literal quotation, but it is not presented as such.

The Gregorian calendar does not include a year zero. And "the scriptures" were not completed by 1 AD. Jesus is thought to have died around 30 AD, and the various books of the New Testament have estimated composition dates between ca. 50 and ca. 150 AD.

I've changed the dates in the interests of avoiding confusion and of consistency with the rest of the encyclopedia.

If Coyne actually said something to the effect of "the scriptures were written between approximately 2000 BC and 0 AD / 1 AD", that might be included, but I don't have the source material to quote from. Given his background, I doubt that he did.

I think the quote is "betweem 2000BC and 90AD." 212.84.96.132 (talk) 16:24, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation of the word "religulous"

Latest comment: 15 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The article says the word "religulous" is pronounced /rɨˈlɪdʒʊləs/. I'm not sure whether it is the official pronunciation of the word, but according to the general rule in English shouldn't we pronounce it with a hard /g/ instead of a soft /dʒ/ since it is followed by a back vowel /u/? Astrothomas (talk) 15:43, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe that is how Bill Maher pronounces it and since he invented the word we go by how he says it. MrBlondNYC (talk) 17:05, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Research

Latest comment: 12 years ago15 comments12 people in discussion

I'ld be very glad if someone had some information on the Maher's research for the movie (maybe from some DVD commentary, interview... anything - I, sadly, found no sources on that). I found it quite interesting to realize that all the information he uses is identical with what Karlheinz Deschner wrote in "The Cock Crowed Once Again" (in 1962!). Does anybody have evidence for whether or not Maher might have known that? And anyway - is that book (widely) known in the US? 03:31, 9. November 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcgit (talk • contribs) 02:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I would love to see a "Points Raised in the Documentary" section, so each claim can be verified using Wikipedia's standards. I researched (googled, really) claims about Krishna and found no backing, but many of the claims made abut the alleged life of Horus were verifiable. well, what do you guys think? Alessio.aguirre (talk) 19:27, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Sounds allright to me (even though, as far as I know, it is not common for a documentary - does/would it automatically imply the accusation that Maher is lying? at the other hand, it might at the same time 'help him', backing his statements by legitimable sources). After all - also as for example most parts of the same director's "Brüno" appear to be staged so that the accusation of a lack of credibility is not too far fetched - I like the idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.14.171.115 (talk) 00:55, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

- Hum, I do not think creating a "points raised" would imply that the production is or isnt lying. We list the points that the documentary raises and try to find data to back it up. I, as I said, cannot find any mention of Krishna as a carpenter, nowhere. I think that ought to be noted somewhere. I have no time now though :( cheers Alessio.aguirre (talk) 03:22, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to see more of his claims verified as well. While I'm no Egyptologist, I've done some amount of research on Horus, and had never heard of most of the things attributed to him in this film. They sound to me like post-Christian Hermetic syncretism, but it's hard to say. Also, in the comment about the Taiban man's ringtone being ironic, I'd like to either hear an explanation of why that's supposedly ironic, or see it removed as a strange and unnecessary comment. 68.35.110.86 (talk) 06:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused to where the deal with Krishna and Horus came from. I'm thinking Maher never did any actual research on any mythological figures. I don't like saying it but for the majority of these "similarities" that they're basically just fabrications. I mean, look at Zeitgeist. That movie has ruined a good deal of mythology pages. 68.54.181.46 (talk) 05:31, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm for this section too. I was disappointed not to find much evidence to support the links between Jesus and Horus, etc.Bushyguy (talk) 18:25, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Why should there be a points raised section? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and, as such, when listing a documentary film like Religulous the goal is simply to list the relevant info pertaining to the film--the goal is not to provide supporting or disproving evidence to the points raised in the documentary (doing so would make this entry spiral out of control). It's too bad, though, that he didn't mention the Dionysius Cult.99.96.38.238 (talk)

Well, why not? A list of the issues that the documentary dealt with and references that either back them up or prove them wrong. What is non-encyclopedic about that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.55.231.120 (talk) 15:20, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Because that's reviewing, you don't open up a real encyclopedia and look up a documentary and see "got right", "got wrong" Dayofswords (talk) 01:06, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

While I agree that Maher makes a number of factual errors, there needs to be a better citation. The IMDB doesn't qualify as a WP:RS for this, since "goofs" are submitted by users. Plus, the reference does not support everything said in this section.Prebys (talk) 19:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Agree that IMDB does not qualify as a WP:RS, especially for comparative religious history, which is what people are discussing here. There are many academic studies that are much better. I deleted the assertions in the article, as they were not supported by the IMDB material.Parkwells (talk) 15:32, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Every once in a while (like today), someone just puts this section back verbatim, including the link to the IMDB; however, the "goofs" section of the IMDB has changed and now none of this stuff is there, so it's not just a bad reference; it's no reference at all.Prebys (talk) 16:41, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I hate to break it to you, but almost every point brought up regarding the "similar" backgrounds of the other gods is factually fictitious. I have researched these claims and most were entirely false. Every point brought up by Maher was used in Zeitgeist: The Movie which has been panned by scholars for its in-authenticity, so that's a bad start. Maher likely did not do his own research for the film or he purposely used false facts to mislead his viewers. Either way these claims ruined the credibility of this film. (talk) 8:03, 28 June 2011

I added a scholarly sourced section on the inaccuracies concerning this part of the movie.Hoponpop69 (talk) 03:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The following websites are not WP:RS

None of these are notable, well-known sites with reputations for fact-checking. Anybody can set up a website and buy a domain name like stupidevilbastard or whatever. Feel free to replace these with WP:RS. For example, a mainstream theological college website with the name of a scholar and school, etc. --Javaweb (talk) 06:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)Javaweb

If there are inaccuracies in a documentary which notable reliable sources note, the article should document them. --Javaweb (talk) 06:12, 20 February 2012 (UTC)Javaweb

Historical Accuracy

Latest comment: 12 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

There has been multiple insertions/deletions of this edit. It is a worthwhile topic for a documentary. Thank you for providing the scene in the movie where you heard the statements. However, The reference, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0815241/goofs, only talks about the film confusing one NC town with another. It does not support the edit. Also, imdb is written by random folks on the internet and is not a reliable source on Ancient Religions. According to Krishna#Birth, "According to Bhagavata Purana divine Krishna was born without a sexual union, but by divine "mental transmission" from the mind of Vasudeva into the womb of Devaki." so it is a virgin birth. Anything you could do to find reliable references for the other contentions would be welcome. --Javaweb (talk) 06:54, 11 September 2011 (UTC)Javaweb

I removed this section again, because again it was not cited correctly. Please dont insert it again Quaber (talk) 18:14, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Why remove it for incorrect citation when you could just correct the citation? What you're doing is removing sourced content.Hoponpop69 (talk) 14:22, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Category films with Atheism related themes

Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

While I enjoy this documentary I would not call it an Atheistic documentary since Maher himself says he's agnostic and is not atheist. So why is it in this category? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.78.234.202 (talk) 21:09, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

A 'comic' documentary? I am somewhat offended by this adjective...the only thing comical about this documentary is the beliefs of the religious people, or? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.230.100.225 (talk) 11:43, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I just removed major disinformation

Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I removed the following which was in the section "Christ myth theory" because it was massive disinformation:

"Following the publication of Tom Harpur's The Pagan Christ in 2004, Christian theologian W. Ward Gasque composed an e-mail to twenty Egyptologists whom he considered leaders of the field,[50] including Professor Emeritus of Egyptology at the University of Liverpool Kenneth Kitchen, and Professor of Egyptology at the University of Toronto Ron Leprohan. The e-mail detailed the comparisons originated by Massey, combined with other speculations derived from Alvin Boyd Kuhn by Maher's source." To be honest this should be removed from Wikipedia.

Obviously this CHRISTIAN THEOLOGIAN had a major bias and he chose to email 20 Egyptologists and only half of them agreed with his point of view. Where these 10 all fundamentalist Christians? This is extreme bias.

This is like writing on the page for Climate Change that it was debunked because the CEO of an oil company sent an email to 20 people with PHDs in environmental science and 10 of them responded that climate change was natural (and not manmade). Well... 20 out of how many million in the world? Shouldn't we look at the scientific consensus in both the discussion of climate change and when it comes to religion?

It turns out that in fact there were many gods that had features awfully familiar to that of Jesus Christ many years before (centuries). There is an fact evidence of it and we have to keep in mind that just like there are many different Gospels of Christianity that have been lost for centuries (they were later found and it was realized that they were omitted from the current Bible), there were also many different versions written of the old gods; this is something that we need to keep in mind.

Therefore, if this film gets "debunked" we need to fact-check and hence debunk the "CHRISTIAN THEOLOGIAN." Let's make sure that an OIL EXECUTIVE doesn't debunk climate change on Wikipedia because he sent emails to a small group of people. Remember to FOLLOW THE MONEY and also FOLLOW THE RELIGION.

THE THEORY IS NO LONGER TAKEN SERIOUSLY. UPDATE YOUR INFORMATION — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.157.139.198 (talk) 10:08, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of the validity or invalidity of Christ myth theory, none of those cited sources mention the movie, so that section is not appropriate for this page. There are many theories talked about in the film, this page is not the place to argue their individual merits. UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 02:15, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Reception

Latest comment: 9 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

I have reverted a change that I generally support made by @User:Airplaneman for the reason that the change renders the statement factually inaccurate. The controversy was not about the film's treatment of Islam, but rather about comments made by Maher on a talk show that were perceived to be anti-Islamic. The film was referenced in the quote to emphasize the idea that when he made a film that critical of Christianity there was very little protest and/or controversy but when he says something critical of Islam there is lots of controversy and/or protest. So I reverted the change as the first part made it inaccurate, and removing the second half of the quote changes the meaning substantially in a way that could potentially be misleading, as the lack of controversy caused by the film is a central part of the idea being presented in the quote. That being said, because the controversy that sparked the quote is indeed not really directly related to the film, it's inclusion in the reception section may not be warranted, as it is only obliquely related to the movie via reference, and the event was really not "Reception" of the movie in any meaningful way, and the entire quote may be out of place on this page, and I would not protest its removal entirely, especially considering how long the section currently is. I just don't want it to be inaccurate. I just want to make sure I didn't cause offense with my revert, I absolutely agree with the spirit of the edit! UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 11:27, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Alright; I must have read the source wrong. Cheers, Airplaneman ✈ 17:02, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

After reading the entirety of the source quoted I have deleted the whole thing in favor of brevity and due to the fact that it was a heavily opinionated blog post being quoted, the movie was only mentioned in passing, and it was written years after the movie's release, so it really didn't merit being inlcuded in the "Reception" section here. It MAY be appropriate on a general Bill Maher controversy page somewhere, but that's a discussion for elsewhere. UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 07:06, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Controversy

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHPZRChdvlQ&feature=youtu.be&t=4m30s

Bill Maher: But the Jesus story wasn’t original.

Christian man: How so?

Maher: Written in 1280 B.C., the Book of the Dead describes a God, Horus. Horus is the son of the god Osiris, born to a virgin mother. He was baptized in a river by Anup the Baptizer who was later beheaded. Like Jesus, Horus was tempted while alone in the desert, healed the sick, the blind, cast out demons, and walked on water. He raised Asar from the dead. “Asar” translates to “Lazarus.” Oh, yeah, he also had twelve disciples. Yes, Horus was crucified first, and after three days, two women announced Horus, the savior of humanity, had been resurrected.

See: http://www.strangenotions.com/horus-manure/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.156.25.30 (talk) 06:35, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Major inaccuracies regarding the Horus-Jesus connection

Latest comment: 8 years ago17 comments2 people in discussion

The article previously had a lengthy section about the Horus segment: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Religulous&oldid=676747431#Christ_myth_theory but while I am writing this there is NO mention of this significant problem. Instead it gives the impression that the movie is quite accurate. This leads to critics of Christianity thinking that the Horus argument is a good one. Here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6AZqOO2FJA a "history major" brings up the argument which William Lane Craig says is "garbage which is spread on the Internet". Here is a Christian video which makes fun of the alleged Horus connection: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0-EgjUhRqA

I am an ex-creationist atheist and not mentioning the Horus problem is leading to critics spreading misinformation. Creationists are able to tell their followers what arguments not to use:

http://creation.com/arguments-we-think-creationists-should-not-use

https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/

Critics of Christianity could also be informed about arguments that should also be avoided by mentioning in this article that the Horus segment is terribly inaccurate. BTW a Blu-Ray of the movie says on the back "The truth is near" implying that the Horus segment would involve the truth. Legowolf3d (talk) 10:27, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

It sounds like the information you are discussing would be more appropriate in the Christ myth theory article. This article is specifically the film, and not the place to argue for or against theories mentioned in the film. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 14:11, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

You deleted the entire NEW Jesus-Horus section saying: "doesn't say much about the subject of the article; non-RS cites" (link) The section had two sources that were specifically talking about a segment in the film. Is there a rule saying that opinions about the accuracy of a documentary can't be stated? In the Zeitgiest documentary article there are a lot of comments about the accuracy of a similar segment in the movie - e.g. "criticizing the parts of the film on the origins of Christianity, wrote that "some of what it asserts is true. Unfortunately, this material is liberally—and sloppily—mixed with material that is only partially true and much that is plainly and simply bogus." My section had similar parts e.g. "concluding these types of claims "have little or no connection to the facts"" I am talking about opinions people have about a specific part of this documentary. I think those cites prove that people did have these opinions (i.e. they are "reliable" in this regard). The article contains many other people's opinions (reviews, etc). The sites I linked to contain summaries of where they got their information from. But if I put their references in the article you'd complain that it is talking about the theories rather than the film. I have only included references specifically related to the film (or the website that had the article about the film). I also mentioned Massey, which a link mentioned, because it tells the reader what Bill Maher's ridiculous claims were based on. Do you claim that the Horus section is accurate? If not, why can't this article about the documentary mention this problem? My section didn't go into all the specifics it just established that there seems to be a problem with the accuracy of that part in this documentary (then people can visit the links). Are you saying that the section you deleted would be appropriate for the Christ myth theory article? One of my links was a line by line comment on a section of the movie. I don't think it has much relevance as far as the Christ myth theory in general goes. BTW part of the section I wrote described the segment - e.g. the background music and visuals. Legowolf3d (talk) 03:10, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Here is another example of an article about a documentary that talks about the accuracy of its contents: Bowling_for_Columbine#Criticism So I dispute that there is some kind of rule preventing my section from existing Legowolf3d (talk) 03:19, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

I've removed the newly introduced inappropriate "Criticism" section for reasons best explained here; and we already have a 'Reception' section for significantly notable, reliably-sourced criticisms. I haven't looked at the other articles you've mentioned, but I have no doubt that problems exist in other articles too, as you've observed. Some notable commentary about the film is certainly allowed by Wikipedia policy, but as I noted above, this is not the venue to debate theories which may have been mentioned in the film, especially when there is already a full article specifically covering that theory. You can review WP:RS to get a better idea on what qualifies as a reliable source for Wikipedia article purposes. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 18:00, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

You still haven't provided evidence that there is a policy preventing articles about documentaries from including opinions about whether parts are accurate or misleading. There are many examples of documentary articles that include this - not only Bowling for Columbine and Zeitgeist (film series) but also Money as Debt, Sicko, Capitalism: A Love Story, Fahrenheit 9/11, The Secret (2006 film), What the Bleep Do We Know!?, Super Size Me, etc. In fact just about any controversial documentary I can think of. "especially when there is already a full article specifically covering that theory" - even if visitors to Religulous found that Christ myth theory page (since there is no link in the article) they would get the impression that the claims about Horus are true! But that is not the case. So that article is useless in informing viewers about the accuracy of that segment. In the Reception section I counted quotes from SIXTEEN different reviewers yet you won't allow quotes from people that did proper research as to whether the documentary is accurate (and their sources of research [books] are shown in their links). You keep on claiming that documentary articles can't talk about whether the content is factual (though some of the reviews imply it is) yet most of the documentaries I looked into talk extensively about things people found misleading or false. Legowolf3d (talk) 08:27, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

...a policy preventing articles about documentaries from including opinions about whether parts are accurate or misleading?

I don't believe there is such a policy, so it is odd that you would ask. But we do have rules that require that content you add be of sufficient WP:WEIGHT, indicated by its prevalence in WP:Reliable sources, and isn't just a WP:COATRACK for a debate about a specific theory. Is this a criticism that has been significantly advanced in actual reliable sources, or is this relegated to dubious websites like "strangenotions" and "straightdope"? I also see that this has been discussed previously (see archives), but reliable sources conveying the importance of this issue haven't been produced.

...yet you won't allow ... You keep on claiming that documentary articles can't talk about whether the content is factual...

It isn't me that allows or disallows content; it's the Wikipedia rules, and I did not make such a claim. If you'll recall, I said that this article isn't the place to conduct a debate about a specific theory.

If a movie viewer is coming to this article to research matters of religion or specific myths and theories, they are going to be rather disappointed. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 17:06, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

dubious websites like "strangenotions" and "straightdope" The Straight Dope is "published in the Chicago Reader and syndicated in eight newspapers". If you check its See Also section, you'll see sources that are considered by many to be authorities on whether things are myths or accurate. The article is in the "Scientific skepticism media" category (i.e. it is far from "dubious"). I included the other source because it responds line by line to the Horus segment and it originally was published in the Catholic Answers Magazine. I said that this article isn't the place to conduct a debate about a specific theory Documentary film "....defines a documentary film as "a factual film.." This article is about a documentary film with the poster saying "the truth is near" so people would assume that it is factual. Parts of documentaries that are not factual are relevant to the article. Earlier I mentioned 9 examples of documentary articles that I found easily that talk about areas of the films that are believed to be misleading or false. So since it is an overwhelming feature of controversial documentary articles, why must this article be different? My sources are specifically talking about this film. If I brought up academic sources that talked about the theory separate from the film you'd say it's "just a WP:COATRACK for a debate about a specific theory". And why would an academic source bring up this part of the movie specifically? They'd assume that existing criticisms of Zeitgeist, etc, are sufficient. Your demands for proof could be compared to someone demanding there be academic sources stating that the Invisible Pink Unicorn does not exist when only links to newspaper or magazine articles are provided. The pages of the sources I provided include references to academic sources though. I'm not proposing that a debate be added to the article. I'm proposing that in addition to the 16 existing people quoted in the Reception section that it could also quote the opinions of two more sources that happened to have done a lot of research and are not as dubious as you claim. (One is from a magazine article, another is from a respected fact/myth column) Legowolf3d (talk) 10:28, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

You seem to have missed my question. Is this a criticism about the film that has been significantly advanced in actual reliable sources, or is this relegated to dubious websites like "strangenotions" and "straightdope"? It sounds like you want to add an opinion about a 30-second segment of a film. Xenophrenic (talk) 14:47, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

The article on StrangeNotions was originally from the magazine of “Catholic Answers”. Since StrangeNotions partly involved atheists I thought it seemed more balanced and it includes comments from skeptics that can point any dubious things out. Catholic Answers’ site is Catholic.com and their forums have “over 400,000 members...Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.” This link shows that Wikipedia has SIX sentences just about the magazine! I just wanted to include 4 sentences. Here is the magazine article on Catholic.com. One advantage my links have over many sources is that the contents are easily verifiable. “Other reliable sources include .... Magazines...”. Like I said The Straight Dope is a "newspaper column published in the Chicago Reader and syndicated in eight newspapers". It is in the Scientific skepticism media category. Scientific skepticism "is the practice of questioning whether claims are supported by empirical research". Its See Also section shows it has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. If you use "What links here" you'll see that The Straight Dope has been used as a reference for MANY articles. So yes it "has been significantly advanced in actual reliable sources" even if your uninformed impression is that those site names sound "dubious". The 16 different people quoted in the reception section involve opinions. I don't think it matters if the segment only lasts for 30 seconds. Even that length caused the Catholic Answers article to be quite long since it was responding line by line. Unlike the 16 other opinions, these two are researched and provide numerous sources. One included opinion is "If you're an atheist or an agnostic, you'll be completely on board". That isn't accurate - I'm an example of an exception. Legowolf3d (talk) 07:02, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

So yes it "has been significantly advanced in actual reliable sources"

Really? The criticism of the Religulous film that you wish to add to this article has been significantly advanced in reliable sources? That's great! Then it should be no trouble at all to cite a few of those reliable sources here for us to review. Could you please provide them? As it stands right now, none have been produced. Instead, all we have are the two non-RS websites you cited. And yes, they are not just "dubious" (I was being kind), they are both just self-published websites (and no, you never provided a citation to the Chicago Reader). And they don't convey criticisms of the topic of this article (the Religulous film), but instead only argue about whether the "Christ myth theory" is valid or not. This isn't the appropriate venue for that content. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 16:58, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

"And they don't convey criticisms of the topic of this article (the Religulous film), but instead only argue about whether the "Christ myth theory" is valid or not." The magazine article directly refers to "Religulous" twice and Maher six times. It fully quotes the segment twice. It criticises the quotes so therefore it is criticising the film. In The Straight Dope column it includes the following: "the so-called documentary Religulous", "Religulous (2008), an antireligious diatribe", "people with an axe to grind - such as the writer and star of Religulous, Bill Maher". So I think these sources definitely criticise the movie and star, specifically. "all we have are the two non-RS websites.... they are both just self-published websites" Self-published websites include forum posts, blogs and personal websites. I don't think Catholic Answers (catholic.com) and the Straight Dope column are "just" an example of this. The article is associated with a published magazine and magazines are a RS. The Straight Dope is comparable to Snopes.com because it is considered an authority on urban legends. Unlike Snopes it is also published in multiple newspapers. It is a source for DOZENS of Wikipedia articles. Legowolf3d (talk) 08:39, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

It's been over 3 weeks and no counter-argument so I will try and readd the Horus segment back to the article Legowolf3d (talk) 11:55, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

The "counter-argument" is already spelled out above. This article is about the movie. If you'd like to debate (or add content debating) the intricacies of the Christ myth theory, there is an appropriate article in which to do so. Kind regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 19:50, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

This is about 2 links that are directly talking about a segment in the movie. Like I said, other documentary articles talk about when parts of it appear to be inaccurate or misleading... Bowling for Columbine and Zeitgeist (film series) but also Money as Debt, Sicko, Capitalism: A Love Story, Fahrenheit 9/11, The Secret (2006 film), What the Bleep Do We Know!?, Super Size Me, etc. In fact just about any controversial documentary I can think of. I'm proposing that in addition to the 16 existing people quoted in the Reception section that it could also quote the opinions of two more sources. Legowolf3d (talk) 02:58, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the other articles you've mentioned, but I have no doubt that problems exist in other articles too, as you've observed. Some notable commentary about the film is certainly allowed by Wikipedia policy, but as I noted above, this is not the venue to debate theories which may have been mentioned in the film, especially when there is already a full article specifically covering that theory. You can review WP:RS to get a better idea on what qualifies as a reliable source for Wikipedia article purposes. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 18:00, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

This goes beyond one example of OSE - this involves 80+% of the relevant articles I checked involving mentions of problems with the controversial documentaries. It is commentary on the film it is saying that a segment in Religulous is not accurate. The magazine article is responding to the film line by line (quoting it exactly then responding). It is more relevant to the film than to an already large "Christ Myth Theory" article. Legowolf3d (talk) 08:04, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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NPOV in the 2019 addition "The Alleged Horus-Jesus Connection"

Latest comment: 5 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

This topic has a long history but I want to restart the discussion for the 2019 edition:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Religulous&oldid=925781844#The_Alleged_Horus-Jesus_Connection

The revert comment was:

"I see you have been attempting to push your agenda here for years despite an extended discussion on the article talk page regarding your pushing of non-WP:NPOV material"

My addition was based on two links, both of which directly talk about the documentary Religulous. One site is the Straight Dope - and its forums have a very high concentration of atheists and agnostics. The other site is "the central place of dialogue between Catholics and atheists" - i.e. it is balanced.

I think a leading figure in the Mythicist moment, Richard Carrier, is against what people say about the link between Horus and Jesus - though he believes that Jesus was based on some other characters.

Note that I'm not a Christian - I just think that factual errors in a documentary should be mentioned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view About the current content - it involves opinionated review sites - I think Straight Dope attempts to be as neutral as possible.

I started another section for this because apparently the only problem mentioned was NPOV so many of those other discussions aren't relevant.

BTW the original thread about this seems to make no mention of "neutral" or "NPOV"... so then this section should be used.

Legowolf3d (talk) 10:15, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

As has been said before above, the article is about the documentary and not the place to discuss and dissect theories proposed in the film unless such theories created notable discussions in the public arena to the point where said discussions were covered by reliable published mainstream sources. Your sources, besides being questionable, do not establish any notability regarding the theory itself and whether the film "got it right" or not is quite simply irrelevant. Given that you have been editing at Wikipedia for several years with a single purpose edit in mind makes it very difficult to believe that you do not have an agenda or that you are not a christian. Not that I care (about the latter). Just stop pushing your ridiculous counter theories in this article please. Rob van vee 10:39, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

"ridiculous counter theories"? One of my sources is The_Straight_Dope ""The Straight Dope" was a question-and-answer newspaper column....in 1973 in the Chicago Reader as well as syndicated nationally in the United States."

Here are links from that article to related resources:

Top mythicists who oppose the Horus connection

Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Horus article Richard Carrier and Robert Price are mythicists who find the Horus-Jesus connection illicit. Earl Doherty is perhaps the most prominent mythicist and agrees:

“It may not be an exaggeration, for example, to say that the majority of alleged parallels between Horus and Jesus are either unfounded or overstated.”

Carrier and Price have PhDs and believe Jesus never existed. They are more qualified than the comedian Bill and they've written many books. Carrier is also an atheist.

So the Horus segment isn't 100% accurate. Surely the accuracy of a documentary is relevant Legowolf3d (talk) 01:54, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

^ http://www.avclub.com/content/node/24569

[1] ttp://www.avclub.com/content/node/24569

[1]